Pre-War Cloth Shoulder Titles, Rank and Insignia photos.

[Muerrisch]

14 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

And so Toby might well be correct, frocks have been the issue concerned in this particular image.  It wasn't a tunic.

 

My interest is currently focused on frocks.  I don't have a stance, I am attempting to collect evidence and informed opinions. It is, for example, possible that the pricing of frocks depends on more than one or two sets of variables. So what might the variables be?

 

All we have for sure is the sum of the costs

[Toby Brayley]

Yes, it appears that Muerrisch and I,  have well and truly opened a can of worms. We have been conversing on the matter back and forth, with Muerrisch working his magic and superb understanding of contemporary documents.   I am now of the opinion that INFANTRY  Colour Serjeants wore the same frock of Sjts quality, the extra price being that of the badges and fitting.  This would seem to fit in with the Sjts marked and C/Sjts marked Frocks I have and have been able to view, they both appear to be the same garment. Same cloth, same lining details and material, the only difference being the small bullion crown.  This would also coincide with the other sealed pattern uniform items I have seen of "Serjeants Quality" all including C/Sjts, and with C/Sjts being dressed as Sjts.

 

As to the question of the pricing in the 1896 PLCN, if the garments are badged or unbadged.....  "The Value includes cost of Fitting and Marking, but not of metal badges are numerals"  Just what does marking mean? 

 

Now, I know that these are not infantry and not frocks, but I believe the answer lies here... (stay with me) 

 

Using a STAFF QUALITY sealed pattern Military Police tunic.  Only worn, in the MP by the QMS and Warrant Officers (in this case the Sjt Major). Both as the label state are entitled to this quality of garment.  If we look at the pricing of the garment in the PLCN, the Tunic of the WO is 34s 6d, but the price of the QMS who was entitled to the same garment is 36s 4d. So the QMS Tunic is more expensive, despite being the same garment, a lower "rank" and with the exact same detailing, the only difference being the more elaborate QMS badge, rather than the crown?

 

 

 

Nothing academically conclusive, but I believe a good start. I am more than happy to be proved wrong and hopefully ignite some discussion. Hopefully there will be more conclusive evidence in the future. Once (if) this COVID  mess ever ends I hope to continue.  

 

A big public thank you to forum member Muerrisch for his help and for listening to my ramblings.  

 

 

 

Edited 30 December , 2020 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

It makes sense that the QMS badge would be more expensive than the Sergeant Majors badge because of the extra bullion contained within the badge(s) and that would account for the difference in price between the two garments.

 

It also makes complete sense that a colour sergeant was wearing a sergeants quality garment.  Although the colour sergeants at that time had the equivalence of the lowest grade of staff sergeant, they did not wear staff sergeant quality clothing, or headdress.

Edited 30 December , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Marking refers to the detail of unit, date of first issue, and soldier's regimental number, inside the garment. Clothing Regs describe how to mark, and detail the marking kit . They also deal with the case of a garment to be reissued , and a soldier transferring to another regiment.

 

What may well be true for the three frocks of sergeants' quality [band, sgt and csgt] regarding value of frock in 1896/7 does not appear to be true for ranks entitled to First Class and Rank and File. This is a very complicated subject, suitable for my new Tier 4 clampdown. There may not be a satisfactory explanation for the various pricings/ values as there are many variables.

 

I would welcome suggestions as to what the variables might be.

 

So far I have avoided tunics, although one would hope that what was sauce for the goose would be sauce for the gander.

 

What does definitely not help is the substantial change of presentation and approach of the later PVCNs compared with earlier. Early and late editions refer to price, 1896 refers to value, for example.

 

Lastly, is there anywhere an authoritative defined list of the nature of the various textiles: kersey, serge 1, serge 2, tartan etc etc.

[Toby Brayley]

26 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

What may well be true for the three frocks of sergeants' quality [band, sgt and csgt] regarding value of frock in 1896/7 does not appear to be true for ranks entitled to First Class and Rank and File.

Thank you. Now, I  can compare the basic rank and file garment with that of Sjts quality. As you know, It is of Kersey rather  than the finer cloth of the sjts quality, with different quality of lining material to the sleeve. 

 

From what I can gather, the 1st Class frocks are of cloth, but with extra gold embellishments to the cuffs collar, with bullion piped and Regimentally marked straps. There might well be internal differences. Here is a wonderful study of a SM from the Devons, early 1890s, in his frock. 

Edited 30 December , 2020 by Toby Brayley

[Muerrisch]

 

1 hour ago, Toby Brayley said:

Thank you. Now, I  can compare the basic rank and file garment with that of Sjts quality. As you know, It is of Kersey rather  than the finer cloth of the sjts quality, with different quality of lining material to the sleeve. 

 

From what I can gather, the 1st Class frocks are of cloth, but with extra gold embellishments to the cuffs collar, with bullion piped and Regimentally marked straps. There might well be internal differences. Here is a wonderful study of a SM from the Devons, early 1890s, in his frock. 

 

 

Super. And look at the shine on boots. 

a textiles site: not quite good enough for military

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20061008181416/http://www.pilgrimhall.org/textileterms.htm

Edited 30 December , 2020 by Muerrisch

[Toby Brayley]

Lance Corporal, “The Buffs”. 

A rather nice postcard sent to an address in Kent , 1904 (or 6) of an unknown Lance Corporal, with at least 12 years service. 

There are some very nice details in the card, that scan very well. It provides one of the best images of the crossed rifles in bay leaves, surmounted by a star badge, for “The best shot among Cpls, L/Cpls and Privates in the Battalion” that I have ever seen, even rarer to see it on the frock.

 

He has a 4 clasp Queen’s South Africa Medal, 2 Clasp King’s South Africa Medal and a rare clasp-less British South Africa Company Medal. 

 

 

The detail on the badge is superb! 

 

[Surreyguardsman]

A similar style original badge, for I believe the Rifle Brigade. One of a number of badges from the Wifes Grandfathers collection who served in The Queen Victoria Rifles.

 

Simon

The reverse.

[FROGSMILE]

Thank you for posting such a fine image Simon.  The red backing on a rifle green badge indicates that it was a badge for either, the King’s Royal Rifle Corps (KRRC), or one of the Territorial Force battalions that styled themselves after the KRRC, of which a number became part of the London Regiment after it was formed in 1908.  One of these was Queen Victoria’s Rifles, which after merger with the Westminster Rifles later became the Queen’s Westminster Rifles, but there were also others.  As a general rule the auxiliary rifles regiments of the old Volunteer Force and later Territorial Force styled themselves after one of the two original, regular rifle regiments, the KRRC and the Rifle Brigade (RB).  Only the former style used the distinctive red backing, with the RB style confining itself to a pitch black backing.

 

Edited 3 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Surreyguardsman]

My pleasure, another here for I believe, the Best Shot in the Battalion for Sergeants and Lance Sergeants. Your detailed information ties in nicely with his Service. He was an interwar Territorial with the Queen Victoria Rifles before capture at Calais in 1940, internment as a POW and subsequent service after Commission with the Royal West Kents. He was a collector of insignia and badges from his teens onwards although most of the collection was scattered with these few items remaining.

 

Simon.

Reverse.

Edited 3 January , 2021 by Surreyguardsman

[Surreyguardsman]

Best shot in Company.

Reverse.

[FROGSMILE]

Superb images and a useful source of reference. Thank you again for posting them.

[Surreyguardsman]

A photograph from my image archives which fits this thread well, an Officer serving with a Royal Artillery Unit wearing the 1902 pattern epaulettes on his greatcoat, blue edged with double row of scarlet to the centre.

 

Simon.

[RNCVR]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Superb images and a useful source of reference. Thank you again for posting them.

 

 

I too love the gold embroidered Marksman badges, they are simply BEAUTIFUL!!!  Old World craftsman ship at its best, not seen anymore in this time!!!

Thanks for posting &

Best to all!

Bryan

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

21 minutes ago, Surreyguardsman said:

A photograph from my image archives which fits this thread well, an Officer serving with a Royal Artillery Unit wearing the 1902 pattern epaulettes on his greatcoat, blue edged with double row of scarlet to the centre.

 

Simon.

Very interesting to see Simon, thank you.  Images of greatcoats from that period are quite rare.

[Surreyguardsman]

47 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

 

 

I too love the gold embroidered Marksman badges, they are simply BEAUTIFUL!!!  Old World craftsman ship at its best, not seen anymore in this time!!!

Thanks for posting &

Best to all!

Bryan

 

 

I agree Bryan, superbly made and quality not seen in modern uniform badges.

 

Simon.

[RNCVR]

I have a few Victorian RN gold wire embroidered badges & they too are of this quality.

 

On a soldier's\ sailor's income in the day they must have been quite expensive for them!

Thanks for posting!

Bryan

[Muerrisch]

6 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

I have a few Victorian RN gold wire embroidered badges & they too are of this quality.

 

On a soldier's\ sailor's income in the day they must have been quite expensive for them!

Thanks for posting!

Bryan

I know nothing of the RN, but the army badges were  a free issue although did not become the soldiers' property. A badge competed for annually [as were all the Musketry ones] would be lost next year if the man came second . That said, I am confident that a fair number of badges never went back into the QM store. Ways and means .......

If asked, I can dig out the prices, the more ornate were comparable to a day's pay.

 

The field for best shot of sergeants and colour sergeants included lance-sergeants. As most lance-sergeants were on corporals' pay they were presumably [the rules do not provide minutiae] denied a shot at the corporals' badge [with star] and had to compete with their very experienced seniors for the badge with crown.

[RNCVR]

I have read that RN ratings had to purchase their gold badges at least during the pre

1WW period.

 

Appears the shooting competitions were quite rigorous for the soldiers.

 

I do really like those badges!

 

Best....

Bryan

[Toby Brayley]

Serjeants, 11th Regimental District Mess, Exeter 1897”

Scanned at 1200DPI

 

A new arrival, this one goes right up there with my a favourites. A large mounted photograph, with superb detail, of “Serjeants, 11th Regimental District Mess”. The Majority, from the Devonshire Regiment. It provides one of the best studies of SNCO/NCO garments of the era that I have seen.

There are a range of ranks and appointments from a mix of Regular, Militia and Volunteer Battalions of the Devons. The Colour Serjeants lying in front, have a brass numeral 4 on their shoulder straps, indicating they are from the 4th (Militia) Battalion.

 

Seated front row are the;

“Serjeant Drummer” (4 bar inverted chevron with drum badge and “wings”).

“Quarter Master Serjeant” (4 bar inverted chevron with star badge).

“Serjeant Major“ ( Large crown).

“Acting Serjeant Major” (4 bar inverted chevron with crown). 

“Quarter Master Serjeant” (4 bar).

 

Note their elaborate 1stClass Garments with the addition of extra gold lace to the collars and cuff and the SNCOs pattern Forage Cap.

 

On the rear row is the “Band Serjeant ( 3 bar chevron with Lyre), with extra piping on his tunic and two NCOS from the Army Pay Corps.

 

Aside from the wonderful display of rank badges and uniforms, there are quite a few India General Service Medals on display. The C/Sjt in the foreground has his own musketry qualification on his left cuff and the crossed rifles and crown worn by “Serjeants of the best shooting Company” on his right.

Certainly worthy of framing!

 

 

 Below: Brass numeral 4 above DEVON. As discussed previously in thread, worn by Militia Btns.

 

Below: Detail of QMS, SM and ASM.

Edited 7 January , 2021 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

What a superb photo Toby!  I totally agree with your reasoning for liking it so much.  I can add that the 11th Regimental District Mess was in Wyvern Barracks, (originally “Topsham Barracks”), Exeter, which still stands and is one of just a tiny number of the Cardwell depots (although it predates that era too) still in military use. There’s an interesting article about it here: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/hidden-secrets-behind-walls-exeters-3768029.amp

I imagine that the SSO who it mentions is attempting to compile a history of the barracks would be grateful for a digital copy of the photo if you were willing to grant one.
 

NB.  The last image of the QMS, SM and Sergeant Drummer (Drum Major) show them to be every inch the ramrod straight, professional, regular army men that they were.

Edited 7 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

32 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

 

NB.  The last image of the QMS, SM and Sergeant Drummer (Drum Major)

 

Thats brilliant thank you! I will add that location info on the reverse (in pencil) for future generations. I have cropped it in quite a bit, but there is no way of IDing exactly where it was taken, there's only a small amount of brickwork in the shot. 

 

I think that chap in question is ASM rather than SD. I reckon it is a crown rather than drum? 

 

A better view.  

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

Thats brilliant thank you! I will add that location info on the reverse (in pencil) for future generations. I have cropped it in quite a bit, but there is no way of IDing exactly where it was taken, there's only a small amount of brickwork in the shot. 

 

I think that chap in question is ASM rather than SD. I reckon it is a crown rather than drum? 

 

A better view.  

Hello Toby, yes you’re quite right it’s a crown, I can see the enlargement much better on my phone screen.  Acting SM he is.

 

 I’m fairly sure that the same photo appears on this linked page captioned as 1898, and above it on the 1896 photo of the 2nd Battalion Sgts’ Mess some of the names of men in your photo are mentioned: https://www.armynavyairforce.co.uk/devonshire_regiment.htm

 

NB.  Two aspects that particularly intrigue me are the APC sergeants in the rear row who appear to have a dark coloured lace on the peaks of their caps (black - when compared with the Devon’s) and the SNCO wearing a patrol jacket (also in the rear row), who seems to have four narrow stripes instead of three (unless it’s an optical illusion)?  Also the brass numerals used by all militia battalions that I’ve seen on their full dress and frock shoulder straps, explains the continued mention of numerals in regular and militia clothing regulations after 1881, something that had puzzled me previously. 

Edited 7 January , 2021 by FROGSMILE

[squirrel]

Fantastic photograph and thanks to all for the additional information. No messing about or answering back with them!

[Surreyguardsman]

A new arrival in the form of a Gale & Polden Ltd photographic postcard showing Members of a Territorial Force Royal Engineers Unit probably on Summer Camp?

The seated Sergeant at the front appears to be very young in comparison to the others and also appears to be wearing what appears to be a pocket watch in a leather case on his wrist.

Could someone confirm the ranks of the two Men wearing the four inverted chevron badges please?

 

Regards Simon.