Pre-War Cloth Shoulder Titles, Rank and Insignia photos.

[headgardener]

I went through some photos a couple of days ago, picked out a few that may be of interest for this thread. Nothing too earth-shattering, but I’ll post some of them randomly - assuming that there’s interest in them, of course.

 

Here’s a class photo dating from 1910, various units & dress uniforms. Some Farriers, a couple of Pioneers, a couple of Layers, some Skill at Arms badges..... Anything else of note?

 

 

 

 

Edited 13 August , 2020 by headgardener

[RNCVR]

That is a very nice photo, thanks for posting.

 Appears to be a number of different unit cap badges in the group, I can ID -  RMA, Coldstream Guards, RA.

i am not very good at Army so surely Froggie will be along & ID all of them!

 

Thanks,

Bryan

Edited 13 August , 2020 by RNCVR

[Derek Black]

Nice photo.

A fantastic array of upper lip hair on show.

 

Derek.

[headgardener]

15 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

That is a very nice photo, thanks for posting.

 Appears to be a number of different unit cap badges in the group, I can ID -  RMA, Coldstream Guards, RA.

i am not very good at Army so surely Froggie will be along & ID all of them!

 

Yes, it was a course photo, so lots of different units. I know who they all are, but I guessed that people might prefer to work it out for themselves.....!

 

 

12 minutes ago, Derek Black said:

Nice photo.

A fantastic array of upper lip hair on show.

 

Indeed! I often idly calculate the percentage of non-moustached men in group photos like this one. Pre-War it usually seems to be less than 10%, and I guess it was one of the few marks of individuality that a man was allowed - hence the variety.

Edited 13 August , 2020 by headgardener

[RNCVR]

No moustachio'd ratings in RN - a "ful set" or nowt!

 

Best to all!

Bryan

[RNCVR]

3 hours ago, Derek Black said:

Nice photo.

A fantastic array of upper lip hair on show.

 

Derek.

 

 

Just obtained this CDV.

[FROGSMILE]

5 hours ago, headgardener said:

I went through some photos a couple of days ago, picked out a few that may be of interest for this thread. Nothing too earth-shattering, but I’ll post some of them randomly - assuming that there’s interest in them, of course.

 

Here’s a class photo dating from 1910, various units & dress uniforms. Some Farriers, a couple of Pioneers, a couple of Layers, some Skill at Arms badges..... Anything else of note?

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you for posting this.  Class, or Squad photos, as they are often known in the Army, are my absolute favourites, as they used to be taken in full dress but with undress caps and so one gets a lot of information from a single image.

Edited 13 August , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

54 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

 

 

Just obtained this CDV.

What a cracker Bryan, I love how the drop shoulders and typically shorter sleeves are clear to see.  Later on I understand that best rig was known as ‘all tiddly’, but I cannot recall the origin of the expression.

[CorporalPunishment]

8 hours ago, headgardener said:

I went through some photos a couple of days ago, picked out a few that may be of interest for this thread. Nothing too earth-shattering, but I’ll post some of them randomly - assuming that there’s interest in them, of course.

 

Here’s a class photo dating from 1910, various units & dress uniforms. Some Farriers, a couple of Pioneers, a couple of Layers, some Skill at Arms badges..... Anything else of note?

 

 

 

 

The man in the second row, seated third from left, appears to be Ayrshire Yeomanry. All the rest would seem to be Regulars.  Pete. 

 

[Dragoon]

9 hours ago, headgardener said:

I went through some photos a couple of days ago, picked out a few that may be of interest for this thread. Nothing too earth-shattering, but I’ll post some of them randomly - assuming that there’s interest in them, of course.

 

Here’s a class photo dating from 1910, various units & dress uniforms. Some Farriers, a couple of Pioneers, a couple of Layers, some Skill at Arms badges..... Anything else of note?

 

 

 

 

This photo is brilliant.

I too love these course photos, cavalry, one yeomanry, ASC, RA, H/Cav, some infantry.

A lot of farrier/shoeing smith arm badges, perhaps a farrier course?

Thank you for posting.

 

Chris

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

That’s a good spot Chris, at first glance it looks as if it possibly is a farriers course of some kind.  However, the infantry attending would only have been trained as ‘cold shoers’ for their battalion transport, and the men with the horseshoe badge are already qualified, which begs the question why are they there.  Finally it would also be a puzzle as to why the man seated front right, who is from the Royal Marines Artillery, would need to attend such a course.  Perhaps it’s a more advanced farrier course for those already holding the basic qualification.

Edited 13 August , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[headgardener]

38 minutes ago, Dragoon said:

 

A lot of farrier/shoeing smith arm badges, perhaps a farrier course?

 

 

 

25 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

That’s a good spot Chris, at first glance it looks as if it possibly is a farriers course of some kind.  However, the infantry attending would only have been trained as ‘cold shoers’ for their battalion transport, and the men with the horseshoe badge are already qualified, which begs the question why are they there.  Finally it would also be a puzzle as to why the man seated front right, who is from the Royal Marines Artillery, would need to attend such a course.  Perhaps it’s a more advanced farrier course for those already holding the basic qualification.

 

Yes, Chris comes top of the class. The photo is captioned ‘Farriers Course, Army Veterinary College, April 1910’ (note the AVC officer in the middle of the 2nd row). Maybe they’re newly qualified and the badges were freshly awarded at the end of the course?

 

I wasn’t sure why the Pioneers were there. Also curious about the rank of the seated RHG man (with a crown above what must presumably be a Farrier’s badge - ‘Farrier Of Horse’, or something like that?).

 

EDIT:..... and isn’t that another RMA man, back row, 2nd from R?

Edited 13 August , 2020 by headgardener

[headgardener]

5 hours ago, RNCVR said:

No moustachio'd ratings in RN - a "ful set" or nowt!

 

 

Anything the Navy can do.......

 

I’m justifying including this pic in the thread as it shows some bandsman and buglers badges on some men (some of whom look surprisingly young) from the East Anglian Field Ambulance (TF) in 1913. But just take a look at the chops on that Major......! An eccentric character by all accounts.......

 

 

 

[RNCVR]

Agree that is quite the set!  Would not wish to be the barber attempting to remove that lot!  He looks pretty advanced in yrs too.

 

They are not Bandsmen tho, only two what appear to be Boy Buglers front & 2nd row centre, & the boy seated in front looks pretty young to me!

 

Cannot make out the right sleeve badges on the 2 soldiers to the Bugler's left of him in 2nd row tho.  Might the first soldier's badge be a Piper?

 

 

& why have those 3 Officers no (RAMC) cap badges?

[RNCVR]

31 minutes ago, headgardener said:

 

EDIT:..... and isn’t that another RMA man, back row, 2nd from R?

 

 

Yes, he appears to be RMA.

[RNCVR]

In the large Farrier's Course photo --- the senior officer seated in centre wearing the aigulettes & QSA KSA medal pair - he appears to be wearing a crown on his right sleeve with what appears to be a badge below it, almost completely blocked out from the soldier's cap in front of him...

Any thoughts on that  badge?

 

Thanks, Bryan

[headgardener]

4 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

In the large Farrier's Course photo --- the senior officer seated in centre wearing the aigulettes & QSA KSA medal pair - he appears to be wearing a crown on his right sleeve with what appears to be a badge below it, almost completely blocked out from the soldier's cap in front of him...

Any thoughts on that  badge?

 

I don’t think he’s a senior officer. The officer in the group is the AVC man seated next to him. I think the man you’re referring to is RHG and his crown surmounts what i think may be a farrier badge. I posed the same question myself in post #1537 (above). Maybe Squadron Farrier Major or something? I’ll see if I can find the photo again tmw and check.

[FROGSMILE]

8 hours ago, headgardener said:

 

 

Yes, Chris comes top of the class. The photo is captioned ‘Farriers Course, Army Veterinary College, April 1910’ (note the AVC officer in the middle of the 2nd row). Maybe they’re newly qualified and the badges were freshly awarded at the end of the course?

 

I wasn’t sure why the Pioneers were there. Also curious about the rank of the seated RHG man (with a crown above what must presumably be a Farrier’s badge - ‘Farrier Of Horse’, or something like that?).

 

EDIT:..... and isn’t that another RMA man, back row, 2nd from R?

From memory I think that there were two or three levels of farrier course related to rank and experience.  As unit tailors we’re responsible for sewing on badges it seems unlikely that they were done at the end of the course, it would have been a responsibility the school could do without.

 

The Household Cavalryman (not sure if LG or RHG) sat adjacent to the course officer appears to be either, a Farrier Corporal Major, or Farrier Staff Corporal (are there stripes obscured by the forage cap in front?  Some ranks of Household troops were still wearing senior staff sergeant (and WO) badges on the upper arm, unlike the rest of the army.

 

Each infantry battalion was required to have some trained cold shoers and it became a quite common policy to send men from the unit’s pioneer section, where all the artisan skills were centred.

 

There is indeed another RMA gunner in the rear row.  Thinking about it, as RMA were permanently trained to operate ashore as well as on board ship, presumably they needed a few farriers too.  

It’s interesting to try and identify all the cap badges, there are several hussars  (11th I think), and dragoon guards amongst the group, as well as RHA, RFA and ASC, the latter two marked out by their coloured girdles.

Edited 14 August , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

8 hours ago, headgardener said:

 

Anything the Navy can do.......

 

I’m justifying including this pic in the thread as it shows some bandsman and buglers badges on some men (some of whom look surprisingly young) from the East Anglian Field Ambulance (TF) in 1913. But just take a look at the chops on that Major......! An eccentric character by all accounts.......

 

 

VBs and TF were permitted to enlist a few Boy entrants to be trained as buglers and that seems to be the case with this RAMC unit.

[headgardener]

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

From memory I think that there were two or three levels of farrier course related to rank and experience.  As unit tailors we’re responsible for sewing on badges it seems unlikely that they were done at the end of the course, it would have been a responsibility the school could do without.

 

 

It’s interesting to try and identify all the cap badges, there are several hussars  (11th I think), and dragoon guards amongst the group, as well as RHA, RFA and ASC, the latter two marked out by their coloured girdles.

 

Interesting to note that not all of the men are actually wearing Farrier badges. 

 

I'll dig out my research later and confirm the regiments. I think they're mostly regulars with a smattering of TF. 

[FROGSMILE]

1 minute ago, headgardener said:

 

Interesting to note that not all of the men are actually wearing Farrier badges. 

 

I'll dig out my research later and confirm the regiments. I think they're mostly regulars with a smattering of TF. 

The infantry did not wear the farrier badge, but only those corps deemed as mounted.

[headgardener]

8 hours ago, RNCVR said:

 

They are not Bandsmen tho, only two what appear to be Boy Buglers front & 2nd row centre, & the boy seated in front looks pretty young to me!

 

Cannot make out the right sleeve badges on the 2 soldiers to the Bugler's left of him in 2nd row tho.  Might the first soldier's badge be a Piper?

 

& why have those 3 Officers no (RAMC) cap badges?

 

They are definitely bandsmen (it’s a lyre badge). They’re members of the East Anglian Field Ambulance on summer camp 1913. I have a few photos sent by the same man (he’s the Pte with the moustache sitting to the Left - our Right - of the bugler, just in front of the officer).

 

The officers are wearing RAMC cap badges, but they appear to be darkened and are rather difficult to make out. You can just make them out the caps of the two Lieutenants.

[FROGSMILE]

Yes the rest of the men are bandsmen with Lyre badges.  Just the two boys have the bugle badge above their cloth Geneva Cross arm insignia.

[headgardener]

The line up in the Farrier class photo is as follows:

1st photo

back row ((L to R)

RHA / ASC / ASC / 3rd D Gds / 19th Huss / 3rd D Gds

 

3rd row (L to R) 

RFA / ASC / 19th Huss / ASC / ASC / ASC / 3rd D Gds

 

2nd row (L to R)

RHA / RFA / Ayrshire Yeo / RHG / ‘Professor’ AVC (evidently the OC of the veterinary school rather than ‘Professor of Shoeing’)

 

front row (L to R)

ASC / Queen’s / W Yorks / RFA

 

2nd photo (there is some overlap between the 2 photos)

back row (L to R)

3rd D Gds / RFA / RFA / RMA / Devons

 

3rd row

3rd D Gds / 2nd Coldstream / RFA / 4th D Gds / RFA / RFA / RHG

 

2nd row

’Professor’ AVC / “Lon H Bde” (therefore London Heavy Brigade RFA TF) / RFA / RFA / Yorks & Lancs

 

front row

W Yorks / RFA / 1st DCLI / RFA / RMA

 

The seated RHG man with the crown above what must presumably be his Farrier badge is listed as ‘Farrier Staff Cpl’ - so top marks to Frogsmile.

 

Here’s the official title of the class photo.....

 

Edited 14 August , 2020 by headgardener

[CorporalPunishment]

6 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

From memory I think that there were two or three levels of farrier course related to rank and experience.  As unit tailors we’re responsible for sewing on badges it seems unlikely that they were done at the end of the course, it would have been a responsibility the school could do without.

 

The Household Cavalryman (not sure if LG or RHG) sat adjacent to the course officer appears to be either, a Farrier Corporal Major, or Farrier Staff Corporal (are there stripes obscured by the forage cap in front?  Some ranks of Household troops were still wearing senior staff sergeant (and WO) badges on the upper arm, unlike the rest of the army.

 

Each infantry battalion was required to have some trained cold shoers and it became a quite common policy to send men from the unit’s pioneer section, where all the artisan skills were centred.

 

There is indeed another RMA gunner in the rear row.  Thinking about it, as RMA were permanently trained to operate ashore as well as on board ship, presumably they needed a few farriers too.  

It’s interesting to try and identify all the cap badges, there are several hussars  (11th I think), and dragoon guards amongst the group, as well as RHA, RFA and ASC, the latter two marked out by their coloured girdles.

I make it Household Cavalry, 4th Dragoon Guards, 10th Hussars, 19th Hussars, Ayrshire Yeomanry, Royal Artillery, Royal Marine Artillery, Coldstream Guards, Queen's Regiment, West Yorkshire Regiment, York and Lancaster Regiment, Army Service Corps and Army Veterinary Corps. The man far right at the rear is a puzzler, perhaps Devonshire Regiment or 13th London Regiment, I dunno.    Pete.