Pre-War Cloth Shoulder Titles, Rank and Insignia photos.

[headgardener]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

The lace is interesting as it appears to be white.  Before the TF were formed in 1908 white lace had been the preserve of the RA Militia and scarlet lace was worn by RA Volunteer Force.

 

I was assuming that this fellow was TF. The back of the card looks as though the likely date is right on the cusp of the Haldane reforms. On the reverse there’s what appears to be a contemporary annotation describing him as “Colour Sergeant” Edwards, and giving an address in Hove. Not sure that there were C/Sjts in the RA, though.

[FROGSMILE]

17 minutes ago, headgardener said:

 

I was assuming that this fellow was TF. The back of the card looks as though the likely date is right on the cusp of the Haldane reforms. On the reverse there’s what appears to be a contemporary annotation describing him as “Colour Sergeant” Edwards, and giving an address in Hove. Not sure that there were C/Sjts in the RA, though.

I should think that Colour Sergeant was an error yes, although the RA did use the term for a while when the rank was first introduced in 1813, but it had changed to ‘Company Sergeant’ by 1820.  Interestingly the RE retained it for much longer.

 

Hove suggests a Cinque Ports unit.

 

NB. Until 31 August 1899 the militia unit was 3rd Brigade, Cinque Ports Division, Royal Artillery Militia.  It then changed to Sussex Artillery, Eastern Division, Royal Artillery.  Subsequently, The Sussex Royal Garrison Artillery (Militia) - until 1908.

 

Edited 10 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Sepoy]

1 hour ago, Dragoon said:

This is nice

Different to the posed photos, I wonder what medal, LSGC?

Thank you for sharing

Chris 

As the Officers are wearing 1910 Coronation Medals, it could be a Territorial Force Efficiency Medal.

Sepoy

[RNCVR]

That is really a superb photo Toby. Thanks for showing!

 

I would think the QMS was receiving his Volunteer LS medal. 

 

I am guessing the Colonel doing the presentation has Victoria Jubilee medal (either 1887 or 97), or perhaps Edward VII Corontation as has been mentioned, & the other I dont know.  It might be a campaign medal.

 

Best.....Bryan

Edited 10 July , 2020 by RNCVR

[Toby Brayley]

A Cabinet Card of an unknown soldier from the Norfolk Regiment with crossed rifles.

Of interest here are the "modification" to the ribbons on his Glengarry, very surprised he could get away with that! We have seen attempts to personalise uniform before with watch fobs and various items of headgear worn at "precarious" angles, but this is a first for me!

[FROGSMILE]

I’ve never seen anything like that before either Toby, thank you for posting it.  There seems always to have been varying degrees of toleration regarding small modifications to headdress over the centuries and one thing that I have noticed about the glengarry cap is the practice of trimming down its height.  The officers pattern had more elegant dimensions and it seems that soldiers often attempted to emulate this by having theirs cut down.  Some clearly went a bit too far with that and there are photos that show the cap reduced to an extreme degree.  Cutting holes through the ribbons certainly seems very unusual.  A more common trend, for a time at least, was to sew extensions on to them.

Edited 11 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[headgardener]

Skill At Arms, worn by one of the shooting team that won the Clifton Cup in 1910.

 

 

[headgardener]

BQMS of 28/Bde RFA, 1907/08.....

 

[Muerrisch]

Thank you.

3rd Prize Battery badge.

[headgardener]

Colour Sergeant, 2/KOYLI, 1907/08.

Shoulder cords, possibly a QSA ribbon, Skill At Arms, not sure about the star on his lower L sleeve.

I rather like the rake of his cap.....

 

Edited 11 July , 2020 by headgardener

[RNCVR]

Could the BQMS be wearing ribbon of the DCM?  or QSA?

Edited 11 July , 2020 by RNCVR

[Muerrisch]

The star is the Distance Judging qualification. For regulars only No extra money, and introduced as part of substantial improvements to musketry after the poor performance in the Boer War.

Tricky little badge as it has been used for so many purposes

[Muerrisch]

2 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

Could the BQMS be waering ribbon of the DCM?

Unlikely without a campaign ribbon. And that date he might also be a BSM ......... 

[Dragoon]

Great photo.

There appears to be a badge of some sort also, between his stripes and crown on his right arm?

Any ideas?

And is that a cloth shoulder title also?

Chris

Edited 11 July , 2020 by Dragoon

[FROGSMILE]

Good to see these photos headgardener, thank you for posting them.  The only thing I would add is that I don’t think he could be a CSM, as the CSM and CQMS creation from the Colour Sergeants of paired companies didn’t occur until the period 1913-14 when the regular infantry adopted the 4-company organisation, if I recall correctly, although the West India Regiment had had CSMs since before the 2nd Anglo/Boer War.  In the 1907-08 period that you quoted he would be a Colour Sergeant.  In 1915 the 4-company organisation was taken a stage further when it was also adopted by the TF and at the same time the CSM appointment was elevated to the new rank of warrant officer class II, with the plain crown, lower sleeve, adopted as badge of rank and appointment.

 

11 minutes ago, Dragoon said:

Great photo.

There appears to be a badge of some sort also, between his stripes and crown on his right arm?

Any ideas?

And is that a cloth shoulder title also?

Chris

Above his crowns he has regimental arm titles in white worsted thread on scarlet, Chris.  I enclose an example for the Gloucestershire Regiment, it is the project currently being worked on for a website, which I’ll draw your attention to once it’s launched.

 

Edited 11 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[RNCVR]

11 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Unlikely without a campaign ribbon. And that date he might also be a BSM ......... 

 

Could be Army LS then.

[headgardener]

12 minutes ago, Dragoon said:

There appears to be a badge of some sort also, between his stripes and crown on his right arm?

Any ideas?

 

He’s RFA, so It’s a gun + carriage surely?

22 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

The star is the Distance Judging qualification. For regulars only No extra money, and introduced as part of substantial improvements to musketry after the poor performance in the Boer War.

Tricky little badge as it has been used for so many purposes

 

What is Distance Judging?

12 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Good to see these photos headgardener, thank you for posting them.  The only thing I would add is that I don’t think he could be a CSM, as the CSM and CQMS creation from the Colour Sergeants of paired companies didn’t occur until the period 1913-14, if I recall correctly, although the West India Regiment had had CSMs since before the 2nd Anglo/Boer War.  In the 1907-08 period that you quoted he would be a Colour Sergeant.

 

Glad you like them, there’s plenty more to come....

[FROGSMILE]

16 hours ago, headgardener said:

 

He’s RFA, so It’s a gun + carriage surely?

 

What is Distance Judging?

 

Glad you like them, there’s plenty more to come....

The distance judging related to a soldier’s ability to judge the range between him and the target.  This was so that he could set his rifle sights accurately, an important skill because the .303 bullets trajectory in flight was not so flat as modern calibre and so hurtled forward in a long curve, if sights were set too high the bullet would land short and if set too low the bullet would land behind.  It had to be just right to hit a man between head (‘first catch’) and ankle (‘last graze’).  Previously the infantryman had generally relied upon his officer to order the correct range, and in a defensive position white painted posts were often placed out front at 100 yard intervals.  The intention with teaching the skills of judging distance was to encourage the soldier to have the necessary skills to set his own sights when an officer was incapacitated, or not present.  The skill was taught by teaching a soldier to recognise the comparative height of commonplace objects at various ranges until he could by visual calculation (appearance, or units of measure methods) make an accurate assessment.

 

Edited 12 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Dragoon]

He's KOYLI isn't he?

So not a gun badge?

[FROGSMILE]

23 minutes ago, Dragoon said:

He's KOYLI isn't he?

Yes Chris, the title was YORKSHIRE.

Edited 11 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[headgardener]

43 minutes ago, Dragoon said:

He's KOYLI isn't he?

So not a gun badge?

 

Sorry! Thought you were referring to the RFA man in the previous pic!

[headgardener]

This one came with a modern pencil annotation saying that it was part of a collection relating to 1st Warwickshire RGA Vol.

I think I’m seeing a BSM with a PROficiency (not an EFficiency - if I’ve learned my lesson correctly) star on his upper arm, and he’s wearing a busby. As for the other aspects of the uniform, I haven’t a clue. It’s postmarked Nov 1906. I think he was on draft conducting duties during WW1 (at least, someone with his name was).

 

 

[Dragoon]

13 minutes ago, headgardener said:

 

Sorry! Thought you were referring to the RFA man in the previous pic!

No, sorry, should have quoted it.

57 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes Chris, the title was YORKSHIRE.

Thank you FROGSMILE, any idea what the badge is between his crown and stripes?

 

Chris

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, Dragoon said:

No, sorry, should have quoted it.

Thank you FROGSMILE, any idea what the badge is between his crown and stripes?

 

Chris

I think you’re looking at the RFA BSM or BQMS, who’s wearing a gun between crown and stripes.  The Colour Sergeant is the next photo beneath with just crown and stripes, no other badge in between.

Edited 11 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Dragoon]

10 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I think you’re looking at the RFA BSM or BQMS, who’s wearing a gun between crown and stripes.  The Colour Sergeant is the next photo beneath with just crown and stripes, no other badge in between

I'm looking at the KOYLI  chap

If you zoom in his right sleeve, his left as you look at it, you can see the large crown, then there is definitely something in between.