Pre-War Cloth Shoulder Titles, Rank and Insignia photos.

[headgardener]

11 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I don’t think so.  I know the sort of bands you mean, in fact ironically there are far too many of them today, several of which have been given semi-official status by the MOD.

The man in your photo looks every inch the auxiliary soldier bandsman that he appears to be.  He knows how to wear the uniform and simply using laced shoes doesn’t preclude him being genuine.  I’m hoping to hear back from the specialist I mentioned tomorrow.

 

I *may* have made a breakthrough of sorts.........

 

Apologies to Toby for clogging up his thread with this, but if it helps identify the uniform then it’s relevant to the bandsman’s badge.

I got this particular postcard about 20 years ago, I bought it principally for the uniform which I thought seemed uncommon and therefore easily identifiable. I drew a blank, and it’s been sitting in the box destined for ‘further research when I get round to it’.

The message on the reverse has an indistinct signature at the bottom, but the message itself (“Another for your collection. What do you think of it?”) doesn’t indicate that it was necessarily sent by any one of the 4 adults in the photo. The guy who sold it to me (a fellow collector) interpreted the signature as being “W A Crofts”, but couldn’t find a QSA recipient of that name which is why he ended up passing it on to me.

Last night I looked very closely at the signature again and realised that it appears to read “W A Crosse” or “W A Grosse”. This led to a flurry of googling by me, and I *think* I may have found him.....

There’s a William Arthur Cross, b. Canterbury 18 Mar 1873. He became a musician and changed his surname to “Crosse”. In 1881 he was a schoolboy living in the family home at Gate Fulford in Yorkshire, His father John Cross was listed as a ‘professional musician’. In 1891 WAC was a soldier in the 3/Yorks living at 2 Castle Yard, Richmond. In 1901 he was living at 78 Croydon Rd, Elswick, Northumberland. He appears to be absent from the 1911 census, but reappears in 1939 at 25 Tiverton Ave, Newcastle on Tyne, profession given as “Bandmaster” of the Newcastle City Police.

He appears to crop up as a composer and arranger for bands and light orchestras. In 1913 he conducted and arranged some marches for what sounds like a record label’s ‘studio band’ called the Rexophone Military Band. One of his compositions was called “Unter Den Linden” was recorded by the band of the Grenadier Guards. In the early 1920s he crops up in the Radio Times as a performer (piano forte), and conductor & arranger for “The Station Orchestra” based in Newcastle.

 

So..... IF he’s the fellow in the photo (and that’s a big IF at this stage) then he was in the 3/Yorks in the 1890’s and bandmaster Of The Newcastle City Police in the 1930’s, though there’s nothing to show exactly what he was doing inbetween. Maybe he’s in the uniform of a Police bandsman (I found a pic of some Newcastle Police bandsmen in the early 30’s and they’re wearing aigulettes)? Or is he a Yorkshire Volunteer? Or neither?!

 

EDIT: i should add that I don’t have a subscription to FMP etc, I found his census details on a family tree of a very distant relative of his on the web.

Edited 15 July , 2020 by headgardener

[headgardener]

And, Toby, I’m happy to post all my speculation about this particular image on a separate thread if you prefer. Will continue posting some more cloth insignia images in due course.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, headgardener said:

 

I *may* have made a breakthrough of sorts.........

 

Apologies to Toby for clogging up his thread with this, but if it helps identify the uniform then it’s relevant to the bandsman’s badge.

I got this particular postcard about 20 years ago, I bought it principally for the uniform which I thought seemed uncommon and therefore easily identifiable. I drew a blank, and it’s been sitting in the box destined for ‘further research when I get round to it’.

The message on the reverse has an indistinct signature at the bottom, but the message itself (“Another for your collection. What do you think of it?”) doesn’t indicate that it was necessarily sent by any one of the 4 adults in the photo. The guy who sold it to me (a fellow collector) interpreted the signature as being “W A Crofts”, but couldn’t find a QSA recipient of that name which is why he ended up passing it on to me.

Last night I looked very closely at the signature again and realised that it appears to read “W A Crosse” or “W A Grosse”. This led to a flurry of googling by me, and I *think* I may have found him.....

There’s a William Arthur Cross, b. Canterbury 18 Mar 1873. He became a musician and changed his surname to “Crosse”. In 1881 he was a schoolboy living in the family home at Gate Fulford in Yorkshire, His father John Cross was listed as a ‘professional musician’. In 1891 WAC was a soldier in the 3/Yorks living at 2 Castle Yard, Richmond. In 1901 he was living at 78 Croydon Rd, Elswick, Northumberland. He appears to be absent from the 1911 census, but reappears in 1939 at 25 Tiverton Ave, Newcastle on Tyne, profession given as “Bandmaster” of the Newcastle City Police.

He appears to crop up as a composer and arranger for bands and light orchestras. In 1913 he conducted and arranged some marches for what sounds like a record label’s ‘studio band’ called the Rexophone Military Band. One of his compositions was called “Unter Den Linden” was recorded by the band of the Grenadier Guards. In the early 1920s he crops up in the Radio Times as a performer (piano forte), and conductor & arranger for “The Station Orchestra” based in Newcastle.

 

So..... IF he’s the fellow in the photo (and that’s a big IF at this stage) then he was in the 3/Yorks in the 1890’s and bandmaster Of The Newcastle City Police in the 1930’s, though there’s nothing to show exactly what he was doing inbetween. Maybe he’s in the uniform of a Police bandsman (I found a pic of some Newcastle Police bandsmen in the early 30’s and they’re wearing aigulettes)? Or is he a Yorkshire Volunteer? Or neither?!

 

EDIT: i should add that I don’t have a subscription to FMP etc, I found his census details on a family tree of a very distant relative of his on the web.

Although I understand and appreciate that you have given this a lot of thought, in all honesty there’s nothing in the uniform details that would bear that out.  The 3rd York’s were a Militia battalion and as such wore line infantry style uniform, including the band.  Various regiments wore cap-lines, or in a few cases aiguillettes, and its unsurprising that a police band might adopt them as an easily acquired and relatively cheap form of decoration, but there’s nothing about your photo that suggests a quasi-military police band.  Conversely there’s much about the appearance that screams cavalry, and the peculiar mixture of features categorically implies Yeomanry.  As an example I enclose a photo of the Queen’s Own Yorkshire Dragoons Yeomanry Band, which as you can see had some similar dress features.  However, Dragoons traditionally have a very specific cuff decoration that is missing on your man.  Of all the Counties Yorkshire had an especially strong tradition of auxiliary military bands, with Doncaster alone having several of renowned quality.

 

NB.  One of the things that I’ve learned is that aiguillettes were common for auxiliary cavalry bands with some worn on left shoulders and some on right.

 

 

Edited 15 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[headgardener]

6 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Although I understand and appreciate that you have given this a lot of thought, in all honesty there’s nothing in the uniform details that would bear that out.  The 3rd York’s were a Militia battalion and as such wore line infantry style uniform, including the band.  Various regiments wore cap-lines, or in a few cases aiguillettes, and its unsurprising that a police band might adopt them as an easily acquired and relatively cheap form of decoration, but there’s nothing about your photo that suggests a quasi-military police band.  Conversely there’s much about the appearance that screams cavalry, and the peculiar mixture of features categorically implies Yeomanry.

 

 

Am very grateful for your advice on this as I know so little about uniforms of that style and from that era. I think it’s a reasonable possibility that the man in uniform is William Arthur Cross(e), so I thought it best to set out what little information I’d unearthed in case it helped establish where he was, what he was doing and/or who he was serving with around 1906.

Thanks again for your interest and advice!

[RNCVR]

  As an example I enclose a photo of the Queen’s Own Yorkshire Dragoons Yeomanry Band, which as you can see had some similar dress features.  However, Dragoons traditionally have a very specific cuff decoration that is missing on your man.  Of all the Counties Yorkshire had an especially strong tradition of auxiliary military bands, with Doncaster alone having several of renowned quality.

 

The members of this Band are  wearing their aigulettes on the right shoulder, where as the musician in the photo being discussed is wearing his on his left shoulder.

 

Thanks, Bryan

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, RNCVR said:

  As an example I enclose a photo of the Queen’s Own Yorkshire Dragoons Yeomanry Band, which as you can see had some similar dress features.  However, Dragoons traditionally have a very specific cuff decoration that is missing on your man.  Of all the Counties Yorkshire had an especially strong tradition of auxiliary military bands, with Doncaster alone having several of renowned quality.

 

The members of this Band are  wearing their aigulettes on the right shoulder, where as the musician in the photo being discussed is wearing his on his left shoulder.

 

Thanks, Bryan

 

 

I mentioned that in the ‘Nota bene’ for post # 1478.  Units varied the practice.  North Somerset Yeomanry, e.g. wore their aiguillette on the left shoulder.

 

Edited 15 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[RNCVR]

Apologies, I missed that, a LOT of information in this topic!

[headgardener]

I have some more photos to share if there’s still any interest.....

 

Here’s a nice shot of a saddlers badge dating from 1908 on the dress uniform of the newly founded ASC (TF). Any idea what colours?

 

 

Edited 23 July , 2020 by headgardener

[Dragoon]

1 hour ago, headgardener said:

 

 

 

 

Good photo!

Is it me, or does it look more like V than a T on his shoulder title?

 

Chris

[headgardener]

2 hours ago, Dragoon said:

Good photo!

Is it me, or does it look more like V than a T on his shoulder title?

 

Chris

 

Good spot! I’ve owned that photo for years and never noticed. Odd thing is, I’m certain it’s from summer camp AFTER the formation of the TF. I’ll have to dig it out and re-check the message on the reverse.

 

EDIT: .....and he’s Suffolk ASC, before anyone asks. Which I think came into existence with the formation of the TF in 1908....? Someone help me out on this...!

Edited 23 July , 2020 by headgardener

[FROGSMILE]

On 23/07/2020 at 13:25, headgardener said:

 

Good spot! I’ve owned that photo for years and never noticed. Odd thing is, I’m certain it’s from summer camp AFTER the formation of the TF. I’ll have to dig it out and re-check the message on the reverse.

 

EDIT: .....and he’s Suffolk ASC, before anyone asks. Which I think came into existence with the formation of the TF in 1908....? Someone help me out on this...!

There was an East Anglian Divisional Transport and Supply Column with its HQ at Ilford.  The Norfolk and Suffolk Brigade Company was centred on King’s Lynn but with a drill station at Downham Market.  That seems to have been the only ASC presence in Suffolk.

Edited 26 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Mike_H]

Not adding to the uniform information but this notice was still on a building on the quayside at Kings Lynn near the Custom house, or it was 5 years ago when i took the photo!

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Mike_H said:

Not adding to the uniform information but this notice was still on a building on the quayside at Kings Lynn near the Custom house, or it was 5 years ago when i took the photo!

Very interesting Mike, it seems likely that the wagons were probably kept in the warehouse.  It makes sense to be near a usable port.

Edited 25 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[CorporalPunishment]

On 23/07/2020 at 09:47, headgardener said:

I have some more photos to share if there’s still any interest.....

 

Here’s a nice shot of a saddlers badge dating from 1908 on the dress uniform of the newly founded ASC (TF). Any idea what colours?

 

 

The cap badge and the collar badges look to be the post-1911 pattern to my eyes.   Pete.

[headgardener]

8 hours ago, CorporalPunishment said:

The cap badge and the collar badges look to be the post-1911 pattern to my eyes.   Pete.

 

Hi Pete - I originally captioned the photo as being Summer camp 1908, but I’ve just checked the postmark and it’s actually dated August 1907. So he’s very definitely a Volunteer rather than a Territorial. 

 

On 23/07/2020 at 11:15, Dragoon said:

Good photo!

Is it me, or does it look more like V than a T on his shoulder title?

 

Chris

 

You got it right, Chris!

[CorporalPunishment]

1 hour ago, headgardener said:

 

Hi Pete - I originally captioned the photo as being Summer camp 1908, but I’ve just checked the postmark and it’s actually dated August 1907. So he’s very definitely a Volunteer rather than a Territorial. 

 

 

You got it right, Chris!

Must be my eyesight on the blink then.   Pete.

[Toby Brayley]

Latest photographic addition to the collection is this mounted photo of photo of a Blockhouse and its occupants somewhere in South Africa 1902.

 

Aside from the fine study of a Rice Pattern Blockhouse, the keen eyed will spot the original 1902 style Drab Service Dress being worn.

It is not the first time I have seen it in use during the Boer War but this is the first time I have seen it used with the White on Red Infantry cloth titles, a rare shot indeed and proof that they did make it out to SA.

 

Edited 27 July , 2020 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

Interesting to see the small dog, black servant boy (common at that time), and the mix of Mills Co cotton web bandoliers and the leather 1898 pattern that had been modified from an earlier type, in order to take .303 ammunition.  The shoulder titles were the earliest version of a type used widely as late as the 1950s on battle dress, and still in use today by the Guards and London Regiment on modern service dress.

 

 

Edited 27 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

Interesting to see the small dog, black servant boy (common at that time), and the mix of Mills Co cotton web bandoliers and the leather 1898 pattern that had been modified from an earlier type, in order to take .303 ammunition.  

 

 

 

 

 

 Although technically they are not "Mills Company" bandoliers as that is the post 1906 company name, they would usually have been Mills Orndorff bandoliers at this stage.  They would also be the "1896" (rather than 1898) MkII P1889 leather bandolier. 

 

The "P1889 MkI" .303 bandolier (as apposed to the .577/450 for the Martini Henry) version first appears in the Lists of Changes in June 1889 (LOC 5873), in 1896 the Bandolier was shortened, the length of the tubes reduced and the studs were no longer mounted directly on the tubes, (LOC 8782), becoming the "MkII" .

 

I have included a Mk I and MkII bandolier for comparison, note the length and placement of the studs on tubes on the MkI, there is also a distinct curve to the MkII.

 

Edited 27 July , 2020 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

Thanks Toby, I have that information in the excellent book on such equipments by Pierre Turner, but didn’t attempt to relay it.  It’s interesting to see your collection though.

Edited 27 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

7 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Thanks Toby, I have that information in the excellent book on such equipments by Pierre Turner, but didn’t attempt to relay it.  It’s interesting to see your collection though.

 

It is worth noting though, that PTs designations are incomplete/misleading. The above LOC is not in his work, he misses out the important. 303 P1889 MkI and jumps from 1882 to the MkII P1889, assuming the Anyway apologies I digress, back to titles! 

Edited 27 July , 2020 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

3 minutes ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

It is worth noting though, that PTs designations are incomplete. The above LOC is not in his work, he misses out the important. 303 P1889 MkI and jumps from 1882 to the MkII P1889, assuming the Anyway apologies I digress, back to titles! 

That’s interesting to know.  I suppose that his book has perhaps been superseded now, it was published some years ago and research has proceeded substantially.  Do you have (can you recommend) a publicly accessible more advanced source of publication?

Edited 27 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

That’s interesting to know.  I suppose that his book has perhaps been superseded now, it was published some years ago and research has proceeded substantially.  Do you have (can you recommend) a publicly accessible more advanced source of publication?

Don't get me wrong. It is a great work, one of the best.

 

Skennertons LOC changes booklets  are a great source of information on certain types of equipment, they fully cover the afformentioned bandoliers and certain parts of the 1888 Equipment etc. 

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, Toby Brayley said:

Don't get me wrong. It is a great work, one of the best.

 

Skennertons LOC changes booklets  are a great source of information on certain types of equipment, they fully cover the afformentioned bandoliers and certain parts of the 1888 Equipment etc. 

Ah yes, Skenneton.  I did wonder if it might be him as I know he published a lot of LOC concerned with musketry and associated equipment.  I don’t have any of his works.

[Sepoy]

4 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Ah yes, Skenneton.  I did wonder if it might be him as I know he published a lot of LOC concerned with musketry and associated equipment.  I don’t have any of his works.

I have all four of Ian Skennerton's List of Change volumes, but I cannot find where I have stored them, much to my annoyance. 
They are still available via Jeremy Tenniswood, of Colchester, but he is running out of volume two.
Sepoy