Pre-War Cloth Shoulder Titles, Rank and Insignia photos.

[Dragoon]

9 hours ago, Sepoy said:

Another SSS arm badge being worn by a member of the Royal Sussex Regiment Volunteers.

Sepoy

Great photo

Thank you Sepoy

 

Chris 

[Jerry B]

17 hours ago, Sepoy said:

Another SSS arm badge being worn by a member of the Royal Sussex Regiment Volunteers.

Sepoy

 

 

 

very nice pic

 

 

[Muerrisch]

The Royal Army Clothing Department ledgers [Kew] have entries on 29th September 1902, the SSS badge to be worn left forearm on SD, tunics, and frocks, respectively in worsted for SD and "scarlet" for frocks and tunics. From the snippets above, I believe they were playing catch-up.

Thus an SD version was to be issued and worn ............ I have never seen an SD badge, not even in the Denis Edwards collection.

Edited 7 July , 2020 by Muerrisch

[Dragoon]

1 hour ago, Muerrisch said:

The Royal Army Clothing Department ledgers [Kew] have entries on 29th September 1902, the SSS badge to be worn left forearm on SD, tunics, and frocks, respectively in worsted for SD and "scarlet" for frocks and tunics. From the snippets above, I believe they were playing catch-up.

Thus an SD version was to be issued and worn ............ I have never seen an SD badge, not even in the Denis Edwards collection.

Thank you, again,for the information, most helpful

 

Chris

[headgardener]

Here is a very clear studio portrait of a pre-war RFA Signaller / Rough Rider (?). His tunic has RFA(?) shoulder titles & regimental buttons. It’s a Newcastle on Tyne photographer.

His gloves look a little small for his hands, don’t you think?

 

[Muerrisch]

A very good find. The soldier has apparently had the collar tailored to sit well, and has a shirt as a neck lining. He has decided not to wear the bandolier.

If he is wearing badges as per regulation he is an assistant instructor in signalling as well as a rough rider. Both appointments enhanced his income [from memory ... I can check if needs be].

[FROGSMILE]

An interesting photo. Those are officer quality capeskin gloves that he would not get away with wearing in barracks.  He’s also sporting a white collar, officer style, edging his SD jacket collar and, most unusually of all is wearing two single stripes with a larger than normal gap to make up his Corporal’s stripes.  All-in-all It makes for a striking image.

[Muerrisch]

When I see these images of young soldiers with skills and evident self-esteem, I wonder what became of them. Did they earn promotion after promotion, did they survive? Every now and again an image jumps off the screen; this is one such.

[RNCVR]

You got that right Muerrisch!   Every time I view one of these poignant images looking out at me, I wonder - did he survive the coming Great War,

did he even know it was coming?

 

The younger images move me me even more, so young & about to die a useless & unnecessary death!  All due to a deranged man's meglomaniac ravings!

 

Best ....Bryan

Edited 8 July , 2020 by RNCVR

[Ron Abbott]

5 hours ago, RNCVR said:

You got that right Muerrisch!   Every time I view one of these poignant images looking out at me, I wonder - did he survive the coming Great War,

did he even know it was coming?

 

The younger images move me me even more, so young & about to die a useless & unnecessary death!  All due to a deranged man's meglomaniac ravings!

 

Best ....Bryan

 

 

Not quite sure that it was all down to one single deranged megalomaniac's ravings.........maybe you fell asleep in that specific history class at school?

 

 

[Muerrisch]

I smell a digression.

Please desist.

Look at thread title.

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

I smell a digression.

Please desist.

Look at thread title.

Pot and kettle comes to mind here.  How did the thread on a Brigade Headquarters Establishment end up with Commodores.  Who was that down to.....?🤨

Edited 9 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

3 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Pot and kettle comes to mind here.  How did the thread on a Brigade Headquarters Establishment end up with Commodores.  Who was that down to.....?🤨

 

It would not have occurred to me to introduce the Royal Navy.

Who was it who posted:

 

The British still have too many generals.  And too many Admirals for that matter.  To have more officers of one and two star rank than tank regiments or ships is risible, but then again, plus ça change!

[headgardener]

Oi.....! You two! Take it outside.......

 

Thank you both for your comments about that photo of the Rough Rider. I got it many years ago, and it’s such a shame that it isn’t identified. I’ve often wondered who he was. He was certainly a good looking fellow who cared about his appearance and had a rather stylish hair cut for the time (when most men appeared to have greasy-looking partings with flicked fringes). Incidentally, regarding Frogsmile’s observation regarding this man’s chevrons, they appear to be attached to a patch of material the exact size and shape of a set of sergeant’s chevrons rather than being attached directly onto the sleeve of the jacket itself (more clearly visible on his L sleeve). He appears to have aligned the 2 chevrons along the upper and lower margins of the patch, hence the gap between them. I suppose it looked neater and less likely to appear that he’d lost a stripe.

 

Here’s a relatively rare image which must have been taken in the 1870s or 80s. Beyond the sergeant’s chevrons I have no idea about the other patches or his likely regiment (maybe a S/Sgt in the RE?). You can see the pointy top of the helmet under his R arm. The quality of the image isn’t terribly good, it was probably reproduced from an old glass negative sometime in the early 1900s. He certainly had a splendid set of chops......

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

He is indeed a staff sergeant Engineer Volunteer circa 1870s.  There weren’t so many Engineer units in the VF as infantry and artillery so such pictures are a little more rare.  The Proficiency star sits at the top of his arm as per the regulation that was not always observed.

Edited 9 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Agreed. Unfortunately I have never managed to find a start date for the proficiency star. The earliest written record of it traced is 1878 but I am certain that these stars [and indeed those with six points and eight points, all worn similarly] were earlier than that.

[headgardener]

Thank you both for your comments! So the star is a proficiency award like the stars above the cuffs of pre-war TF men?

 

[Muerrisch]

No!

The lower cuff stars, five points generally, were for efficiency, which basically meant regular attendance at training, or drills as they were called. They were for each accrued four [or five, periods changed] years service.

 

See the Blog by me and Toby as advertised at foot of this post.

Sergeants had to pass proficiency tests relevant to their arm of service, and until passed could not wear the proficiency star

[headgardener]

Ah, yes, sorry. PROficiency as opposed to EFficiency. Got it. Was a bit confused, all those stars....

[Toby Brayley]

T 4 ROYAL BERKS c1909. Pictures of the Cloth Berkshire ST are probably the most common, due to their continued and  late use of the title. A number of examples grace these pages but this image is just too good not to share. . CLLEs and drab serge shoulder protectors .

 

 

Unsent Postard.

[FROGSMILE]

Super picture Toby, thank you for posting.  The drab serge shoulder protectors fitted well over the Slade-Wallace equipment braces, but don’t sit at all well over those 03 Bandoliers.  Very interesting to see.

Edited 10 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

13 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Super picture Toby, thank you for posting.  The drab serge shoulder protectors fitted well over the Slade-Wallace equipment braces, but don’t sit at all well over those 03 Bandoliers.  Very interesting to see.

 

Yes! they are almost bursting when worn over the cartridge  pocket!

 

Another new arrival. An unusual unsent and nicely candid postcard of a TF RAMC medal parade. A nice mix of details here for the uniform buffs including "staff pattern" Tunics and Sword Belts. Note 4 point stars being used as Efficiency Stars on the (RQMS?). The highest up the arm I have seen them. 

Edited 10 July , 2020 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

Another superb image Toby.

 

On the left receiving an award is a Quartermaster Sergeant.  On the right, although we cannot see his rank, is a warrant officer (Sergeant Major of unit). Although both have staff quality cuff loops in bullion wire, the sergeant major has the same double width also framing his collar, as well as shoulder cords rather than the straps of the QMS.  Although the collar differential is what I would expect, I am unsure about the shoulder straps and whether that is a rank differential, or that the pattern of the tunic changed and the WO has the older version.  By comparing with other corps who wore similar we can probably work it out.

 

Regarding the 4-point stars I seem to recall that the TF adopted them at some point after they were formed.  The OTC and other cadet forces did so too, and the latter still use them.

Edited 10 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

17 hours ago, headgardener said:

Thank you both for your comments! So the star is a proficiency award like the stars above the cuffs of pre-war TF men?

 

 

 

The lace is interesting as it appears to be white.  Before the TF were formed in 1908 white lace had been the preserve of the RA Militia and scarlet lace was worn by RA Volunteer Force.

Edited 10 July , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Dragoon]

1 hour ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

Yes! they are almost bursting when worn over the cartridge  pocket!

 

Another new arrival. An unusual unsent and nicely candid postcard of a TF RAMC medal parade. A nice mix of details here for the uniform buffs including "staff pattern" Tunics and Sword Belts. Note 4 point stars being used as Efficiency Stars on the (RQMS?). The highest up the arm I have seen them. 

This is nice

Different to the posed photos, I wonder what medal, LSGC?

Thank you for sharing

Chris