Jump to content
Free downloads from TNA ×
The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Pre-War Cloth Shoulder Titles, Rank and Insignia photos.


Toby Brayley

Recommended Posts

A new addition to the thread, 2nd Volunteer Btn MANCHESTER. 

 

429832608_Manchester2v.jpg.9566a6a3dc1beb6f4731ac8f568172fa.jpg

 

900718787_Manchester2v1.jpg.3a682cb7d6b2621eb126d94293238b99.jpg

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

cracking photo toby

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Super photo, including a great view of high waisted SD trousers, woven worsted shoulder titles and twisted shoulder cords, as well as the universal felt hat for wear in the field, and one soldier in blue patrol uniform (note Sphinx collar badge of Manchester’s).

F4226C96-D80B-43F5-A140-6ECA7F61B72E.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks gents. I have not  had much luck with the images and postcards of the cloth titles but have recently got lots of nice earlier CDV and Cabinets featuring various badges, that might push the generous moderators too far!
Here is one rather nice CDV. Initially, going only on his "Bobby" Antelope collar badges and what looked like the King's Crown on his bandsman badge, I thought he was a Bandsman of the Royal Warwickshire Regiment,  in India. Under closer scrutiny It turns out this Bandsman is not from the "Royal Warwickshire Regiment"... as such.
I thought he was wearing the "Frock, Serge Foreign Pattern" but on closer inspection he is wearing the "1870" pattern tunic (full faced collar and the way the braid of the trefoil extends around the cuff), another indication this is pre-1881, is his Good Conduct Chevron is is worn on the lower right, this changed to the left cuff in March 1881.
The Antelope Collar Badges were worn from 1872-1881. The pre-1881 date he is a Bandsman in the 6th Regiment of Foot, who became the Royal Warwickshire Regiment in July 1881. Barely visible under magnification is the later large brass numeral 6 on his shoulder strap.
 
1715486461_WarwicksBandsman.jpg.19a55f7c2c0a70ea078705847179ff44.jpg
Edited by Toby Brayley
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Superb view of a pre-1881 Bandsman, Toby, thank you for posting.  I’ve always liked the bandsman’s badge of that period, it’s replacement was nothing like as resplendent.  Another feature I like is the festooned watch chain down the button line, which I’ve seen before, suggesting that it was tolerated in a way that wasn’t acceptable later.  I think it’s because there was no inner pocket and so the watch was hooked up via its fob on a button but just inside the fly.  A great image.

 

C0A8A9A0-F281-4583-BC26-0991E336F214.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The big advantages of the replacement band badge were that they were cheaper, relatively easy to make in even cheaper gilding metal, and matched the bandmaster's existing pattern.

I have seen and handled a few examples of the old badge in gilding metal, a truly awesome piece, possibly kosher for official consideration, possibly made up fakes. I have turned down owning any.

One last comment: the transition from the ornate example above to the simple crowned lyre with wreath was unduly complicated and took place over a long period. Any bandsman with the old badge would be very loath to change it for the new.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I only have a couple of shots of the QVC guilded metal Bandsman's badge including this chap from the Border Regiment in yet another style of "Frock, Serge Foreign Pattern"!  This version is obviously more ornate for bandsman featuring a piped seam on the sleeves and extra cuff detail below the trefoil. This means we have now identified at least 7 versions of Other Ranks FS Frocks in use concurrently, at least 3 of them hitherto unidentified!
 
1258596718_BorderBandsmanIndiac1890s.jpg.43bd91b18221b3700d8e7e6078297a99.jpg
 
 
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is absolutely superb Toby and a variation of cuff knot decoration that I have never seen before.  I think that the extra lace embellishment was probably regimentally initiated and then carried out by the battalion tailoring workshop.  Ergo the variation is more to do with the cuff knot than the actual garment itself.

 

I enclose a band Boy showing the old badge and from the same era as your post # 1329.

 

Band Boy.jpg

Edited by FROGSMILE
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:
I only have a couple of shots of the QVC guilded metal Bandsman's badge including this chap from the Border Regiment in yet another style of "Frock, Serge Foreign Pattern"!  This version is obviously more ornate for bandsman featuring a piped seam on the sleeves and extra cuff detail below the trefoil. This means we have now identified at least 7 versions of Other Ranks FS Frocks in use concurrently, at least 3 of them hitherto unidentified!
 
1258596718_BorderBandsmanIndiac1890s.jpg.43bd91b18221b3700d8e7e6078297a99.jpg
 
 

Toby I am not convinced that the frock is foreign pattern, even though worn seemingly in India, On what do you base your diagnosis please?

Anyway, here is am exotic NF drummer, taken in India, for good luck:post-894-1246546805.jpg

Edited by Muerrisch
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thats a great photo and yet another variation to throw in the mix! 

 

I based it based my diagnosis on the fact it fits the  Foreign Pattern Frock, with piped shoulder straps and trefoil (albeit an enchanced one!) cuff, only found on the FS frocks of this era, as i mention in the post there's such a variation, obviously some "unofficial" all in use concurrently! 

Regards

Toby 

Edited by Toby Brayley
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Toby Brayley said:

Thats a great photo and yet another variation to throw in the mix! 

 

I based it based my diagnosis on the fact it fits the  Foreign Pattern Frock, with piped shoulder straps and trefoil cuff, only found on the FS frocks of this era.. Of course with those extra additions! 

Regards 

Toby 

Thank you. It might have been a trefoil cuff once but if so a total re-work has extinguished the side-lobes of the trefoil. You will allow me to be unconvinced I am sure!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Thank you. It might have been a trefoil cuff once but if so a total re-work has extinguished the side-lobes of the trefoil. You will allow me to be unconvinced I am sure!

 

 I would offer my best suggestion that it is a locally made, or as Frogsmile suggests a regimentally tailored variation for Bandsman hence the sleeve piping and different "cuff detail", the only difference between this and a standard FS Frock. Given the image is c1890s, no other garment had the trefoil (that went in 1881), it remained exclusive to the "FS Frock". It is not a Tunic as it does not have front piping and the FS Frock also retained the shoulder strap piping, but not all the way around like on the pre-1881 tunic/frocks. . 

 

Below: Here is the "Home Service" Kersey Frock of the era c1894 (as it has lower pockets). This was not listed as used on FS, the tunic being used in lieu.  If needed  the lining was to be removed,at "public expense", and re installed, again at public expense when returning to the colder UK climate.  Unpiped shoulder straps, no piping on collar, etc. 

 

1.jpeg.bd019d188100ad52906853e879977098.jpeg

 

2.jpeg.814e0032f8f44431078171c50bdaac3c.jpeg

5.jpeg.ec2494f1d7952aa99e0ec39cbe9da6ff.jpeg

 

 

Below: "Frock, Serge, Foreign Pattern", this is the Sjts version with rear piping and front piping, but other than that is as the ORs version, with piping on the base of the collar and on shoulder straps. 1012267916_SergeFrockFPSgt1.jpg.1cf5b7e72160c69219cfec74f08fce35.jpg

1666624933_SergeFrockFPSgt4.jpg.43240e69a53a8b4210cac854965a2bc5.jpg

 

 

Edited by Toby Brayley
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't want to quibble but the heavily modified frock apparently has woven titles, the Indian Pattern metal. I have never been too sure about Indian pattern versions, being made in India [or shipped to India] on behalf of  and paid for by the Indian Government. Other versions, presumably in use in Egypt etc, were provided by the British government.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

46 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

I don't want to quibble but the heavily modified frock apparently has woven titles, the Indian Pattern metal. I have never been too sure about Indian pattern versions, being made in India [or shipped to India] on behalf of  and paid for by the Indian Government. Other versions, presumably in use in Egypt etc, were provided by the British government.

 

All the "Frocks FS" and HS prior to the mid 1900s (ish/) had the woven titles (my example is 1906 hence the brass titles). I attach an 1896 issued one for the DCLI, as worn in India, courtesy of Andy Tonge. 5 and even an odd 6 button variation all in use at the same time, some with and with out lower pockets! 

1.jpg.3056734bc813652a788a9db9bd5b0acb.jpg

2.jpg.531fed9261bb254697af54a5fae0a311.jpg

 

Queens India, 

1407156719_queens1.jpg.1ab2839a48596dfe045367071ab4d6fb.jpg

 

Norfolk India

 

2025163432_Norfolkindia.jpg.b521f0b5ba0945c6de7b901e5c1623a0.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Toby Brayley
Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

A new book/let looms?

 

I am working on it as we speak! It does mean you will have to do some hefty proof reading/editing again though! ;)

 

There's a book in the FS Frock alone as there are so many variations, and that's not even including Rifles Regts styles or officers. Pinning down exact dates of introduction and changes is near impossible.

 

 Here are some examples of the "6 button" style, that was used alongside the 5 button with trefoil, it certainly doesn't replace it. It appears from c1905, with its pointed cuff and shoulder strap in facing colour. I can find no reference (as yet) to this style,  but the more I look, the more there is evidence of its prolific use, right up to 1914. There is also evidence of a 5 button version, as the above.  Anyway I totally digress, apologies! 

 

Below 5 and 6 button! 

2005621254_FSHelmetsc1908India.jpg.74f9bf030a6c6f13ca6b0a14dcd6b6e1.jpg

315279001_sussexfs2.jpg.43971be5781606aea8a18ee04a37f30e.jpg, I can

 

1407233019_DorsetFrock.jpg.8080d57c9d4989961e9ba30ddd0a84e1.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Toby Brayley
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Toby, you are on! I have a lot of photos that you can plunder, plus 3 editions of Clothing Regs India [right periods], PVCNs, etc etc. All craving being used by somebody.

 need something to do during self-imposed shielding, as I have a handful of vulnerabilities and have already lost two holidays and expect to lose Malta.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Toby, you are on! I have a lot of photos that you can plunder, plus 3 editions of Clothing Regs India [right periods], PVCNs, etc etc. All craving being used by somebody.

 need something to do during self-imposed shielding, as I have a handful of vulnerabilities and have already lost two holidays and expect to lose Malta.

 

Superb, thank you! I shall send you a lengthy PM in the morning.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A booklet on all these uniform and badge intricacies would be most welcome. Including headwear too please, if there's room!

Keep me in the loop.


Cheers,
Derek.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A very rare image, a postcard sent from Ipswich in August 1906, of a group of Volunteer Electrical Engineers, Submarine miners.
One of only a handful of images I have ever seen showing the Flaming Grenade (worn on the lower right cuff), unique to the Submarine Miners.
Note the embroidered EE on the shoulder straps! There is some nice insignia on view here including Efficiency Stars and the "Special Services Section" badge. Late use of the "Pill Box" forage cap too!
1851731210_RESubmarineMinersAug1906.jpg.bd5e151facbbc98de30328b85eb624dd.jpg
Edited by Toby Brayley
Link to comment
Share on other sites

What does the hive mind reckon this one below the S.S.S Badge is?

 

738788804_RESubmarineMinersAug19062.jpg.c7ac1172da65a3807dfadbae356d3773.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Very intriguing Toby and I don’t recognise it at all.  Several other men seem to have it too, including the sergeant standing at far right.  Presumably something peculiar to RE.  I’ll be interested to learn what Muerrisch thinks.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is a superb photo Toby, thank you!

Has someone got a picture of the Special Service Section badge please?

Was this badge just for the Submarine miners RE or were there other units.

Also, were there Regular Sub miners or were they all Volunteers or Militia?

Finally, the grenade badge was this the standard grenade badge that the Sgt's wore above the stripes?

Thank you in advance, fascinating photo and unit.

Cheers

Chris

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Has someone got a picture of the Special Service Section badge please?  YES I WILL DIG ONE OUT AND POST

Was this badge just for the Submarine miners RE or were there other units. NO, SSS UNDERTOOK XTRA OBLIGATION IN NATIONAL EMERGENCY, AVBL ALL VF

Also, were there Regular Sub miners or were they all Volunteers or Militia? NO REGULARS AS FAR AS I KNOW

Finally, the grenade badge was this the standard grenade badge that the Sgt's wore above the stripes? YES, IN SILVER

Thank you in advance, fascinating photo and unit.

Cheers

Chris

 

AS FOR THE MYSTERY BADGE I ONLY HAVE ONE CANDIDATE IN PUBLISHED REGULATIONS AND AM NOT CONFIDENT

. IN VF REGS SEVERAL EDITIONS THERE IS A DRAWING [NOT A PHOTO] OF A SHAMROCK BADGE FOR BRIGADE SUPPLY DEPOT. I HAVE NEVER EVER SEEN ONE IN WEAR. THE BADGE SEEMS ALMOST TO FIT A SHAMROCK  ASKEW, WITH STALK AT SOUTHEAST AND AT LEAST TWO LEAVES.

HOWEVER, WHAT EE SUB MINERS MEN COULD ACHIEVE IN A BRIGADE SUPPLY DEPOT  EVADES ME.

 

SO THIS BEE OF THE HIVE ETURNS EMPTY OF NECTAR.

 

GREAT PHOTO TOBY.

Edited by Muerrisch
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am really enjoying the photo you have been posting Toby, I am not that knowledgeable on the Victorian\Edwardian Army & the various photos & the responses have been very interesting & informative. 

 

I also really like the photos you have been posting of your fabulous uniform collection!

 

Best wishes!

Bryan

Edited by RNCVR
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...