Pre-War Cloth Shoulder Titles, Rank and Insignia photos.

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, Sepoy said:

I have all four of Ian Skennerton's List of Change volumes, but I cannot find where I have stored them, much to my annoyance. 
They are still available via Jeremy Tenniswood, of Colchester, but he is running out of volume two.
Sepoy

Thank you Sepoy, I might’ve guessed that J. Tenniswood still has them.  A name of some repute in the area of our mutual interest.

[Toby Brayley]

A rather tatty, but brilliant, cabinet card, that I have cropped in for detail, taken in Gibraltar c1904.

 

Garrison Military Police (with the GMP Armlet) from the Royal Garrison Artillery and Royal Warwickshire Regiment. The RGA men have the Crossed Guns with Crown (1st Prize Battery) badge on their frocks and one has the QSA.

 

The Warwicks have the 5 button frock with blue collar and plain cuff and should straps, with the latter R.WARWICKSHIRE rater than WARWICK embroidered "title" that has evidently been been added on at a later date as this style of frock had plain straps for brass shoulder titles.

It also provides us with a great shot of the badged Foreign Service Helmets. This is the first time I am ever seen a number GMP armlet.

 

 

Note how the R.WARWICKSHIRE has been added to the shoulder strap.

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

Superb detail Toby, especially the laid on title patch to the shoulder strap.  It’s similar to the enclosed RWF version, which dates from around the same time.  I suspect it might have been an economy measure to recycle titles from older tunics and frocks.

 

 I too have never before seen a numbered GMP brassard.  One can imagine why in a mixed garrison that COs of units might prefer numbers on GMP men in order to make identity transparent.

 

The patch behind the R. Warwickshire Regiment cap badge was in use for quite a long time and was still seen on the later Wolseley helmet, I wonder what colour it was.  My guess would be scarlet with it being a Royal regiment, but I don’t know for certain.

 

Thank you for posting such an interesting image.

 

Edited 3 August , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Mike_H]

A recent photo from the KSLI Museum at Shrewsbury

 

Edited 3 August , 2020 by Mike_H

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Mike_H said:

A recent photo from the KSLI Museum at Shrewsbury

 

 

Great photo Mike.  I’m always looking for good quality photos of woven shoulder titles for a forthcoming project.  Thank you for posting.

[Mike_H]

F'mile

You are very welcome to use it

 

M

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Mike_H said:

F'mile

You are very welcome to use it

 

M

Thank you Mike, I will be grateful for any more that you may find.  It will be for a project on uniformology.com

[headgardener]

Are fabric collar insignia within the scope of this thread? If so, here’s a British Army padre in S Africa during the Boer War (photo taken in Bloemfontein).

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, headgardener said:

Are fabric collar insignia within the scope of this thread? If so, here’s a British Army padre in S Africa during the Boer War (photo taken in Bloemfontein).

 

 

 

Yes, the thread also relates to other cloth insignia, although there’s no reason why another thread on collar badges could not be started.  However, cloth types are uncommon other than for full dress.

Edited 11 August , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[headgardener]

28 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

..... cloth types are uncommon other than for full dress.

 

I'm guessing that his man is wearing some form of drab field dress... ? 

[RNCVR]

Interesting photo, never seen cloth collar insignia before. 

I notice the Chaplain is wearing Lieut rank insignia on his shoulders.

I thought Chaplains wore no rank insignia?

 

Thanks for posting,

Bryan

[FROGSMILE]

22 minutes ago, headgardener said:

 

I'm guessing that his man is wearing some form of drab field dress... ? 

Yes, I believe so, a pale khaki rather than drab serge I think.  The one time battle with grey as an alternative had been won by various shades of khaki, usually lighter in warm climates and drab (brownish) in temperate climates.

[headgardener]

2 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

Interesting photo, never seen cloth collar insignia before. 

I notice the Chaplain is wearing Lieut rank insignia on his shoulders.

I thought Chaplains wore no rank insignia?

 

Thanks for posting,

Bryan

 

No, I'm pretty sure they did. Well, this one certainly appears to be, and I have several from WW1 who wear either cuff or shoulder rank. 

 

3 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes, I believe so, a pale khaki rather than drab serge I think.  The one time battle with grey as an alternative had been won by various shades of khaki, usually lighter in warm climates and drab (brownish) in temperate climates.

 

Thanks for the clarification!

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

Interesting photo, never seen cloth collar insignia before. 

I notice the Chaplain is wearing Lieut rank insignia on his shoulders.

I thought Chaplains wore no rank insignia?

 

Thanks for posting,

Bryan

It was (and remains) a fudge Bryan.  They don’t hold military rank, but accepted a clerical grade that used military rank badges just to ensure that soldiers understood their padre’s position in the pecking order.  It caused quite a fuss at the time, with the Anglicans supporting the wearing of status badges, all the non-conformists uniting in outraged and vehement opposition, and the Roman Catholic’s sat on the fence. In the end, ‘the Tories at prayer‘ prevailed.

Edited 11 August , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[RNCVR]

Did not have that issue in RN (or RCN, & possibly other

Dominion Navies) altho they wore officer's uniform & cap badge, Chaplins wore no rank insignia!

 

Thanks for clarification

 

& Best..... Bryan

Edited 11 August , 2020 by RNCVR

[FROGSMILE]

25 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

Did not have that issue in RN (or RCN, & possibly other

Dominion Navies) altho they wore officer's uniform & cap badge, Chaplins wore no rank insignia!

 

Thanks for clarification

 

& Best..... Bryan

The Army didn’t either to start with, it was a later development and partly connected with friction around the decision to issue the Army Chaplains orders and give them a policy to follow.  The non-conformists stance, was that they did not wish to be under formal, army orders, but just to tender to their units as a flock, or congregation that just happened to wear uniform.  The Anglicans were a part of the British establishment class and thus more nuanced about being militarised.  It was from that position of acceding to the wishes of Horse Guards (Army HQ) that the adoption of rank badges evolved.

Edited 11 August , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[headgardener]

5 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The Army didn’t either to start with, it was a later development and partly connected with friction around the decision to issue the Army Chaplains orders and give them a policy to follow.  The non-conformists stance, was that they did not wish to be under formal, army orders, but just to tender to their units as a flock, or congregation that just happened to wear uniform.  The Anglicans were a part of the British establishment class and thus more nuanced about being militarised.  It was from that position of acceding to the wishes of Horse Guards (Army HQ) that the adoption of rank badges evolved.

 

Do you know if there was a similar situation in the early days of the Army Medical Service? I have a feeling that they originally didn’t wear rank insignia, but I might be getting this mixed up with BRCS doctors who I think in the early days of WW1 wore standard officers tunics, but with an empty space where their cuff rank badges would be.

[FROGSMILE]

20 minutes ago, headgardener said:

 

Do you know if there was a similar situation in the early days of the Army Medical Service? I have a feeling that they originally didn’t wear rank insignia, but I might be getting this mixed up with BRCS doctors who I think in the early days of WW1 wore standard officers tunics, but with an empty space where their cuff rank badges would be.

No, you’re quite right actually.  The surgeons were originally treated in a similar way and so tended to struggle to recruit.  Many fine surgeons of varying age and experience began to write cogent articles in the Lancet that drew the attention of the public to their invidious position.  Eventually the war department and Horse Guards were forced to do something about it and surgeons terms and conditions of service were transformed in a number of meaningful ways, including the grant of a proper military status, and rank equivalencies with their non-medical colleagues, although they could not command armed troops and were confined to the command of medical orderlies and other medic support staff.  The formation of the RAMC in the late 1890s then sealed the transformation and resulted in a medical service fit for entering the 20th Century.

Edited 11 August , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[headgardener]

I’m guessing that these collar badges are made from some form of stitched or braided fabric.

 

 

[RNCVR]

They are pretty bright, I would say gold or silver bullion wire.

 

Nice image, thanks for posting,

Bryan

[headgardener]

7 minutes ago, RNCVR said:

They are pretty bright, I would say gold or silver bullion wire.

 

Nice image, thanks for posting,

Bryan

 

Ah.... I was thinking they were white, I didn’t think they had a metallic glint like his buttons. 

 

The man in question was was Lincolnshire RA Vols in the 1880s and 90s. This shot is from the 1890s I think.

Edited 12 August , 2020 by headgardener

[RNCVR]

Some of the RN photos I have in my collection they are wearing gold wire badges & they can appear quite bright.

 

A lot has to do with how the camera "sees" the image as well.

 

There is certainly no obvious wear or tarnishing\patina to this officer's collar insignia

Edited 12 August , 2020 by RNCVR

[Dragoon]

2 hours ago, headgardener said:

 

Ah.... I was thinking they were white, I didn’t think they had a metallic glint like his buttons. 

 

The man in question was was Lincolnshire RA Vols in the 1880s and 90s. This shot is from the 1890s I think.

Great photo.

If RA Volunteers, and he's an Officer, then the collar badges will be silver wire.

 

Chris 

[headgardener]

10 minutes ago, Dragoon said:

Great photo.

If RA Volunteers, and he's an Officer, then the collar badges will be silver wire.

 

Thanks Chris - Yes, he was RA Vols, and Yes he was an officer (he's a Lt in this photo but signed himself as Capt, so I reckon the photo the photo dates from early 1890s as he became Capt in 1895 IIRC).

Not cloth insignia then. Must try harder....! 

[FROGSMILE]

It’s often forgotten today, but both, RA and RE officers had silver bullion collar grenades on their full dress, as did grenadiers and the three old fusilier regiments (RF, RSF, RWF), although later on the RF later changed to gold.  Ergo it was not just the officers of the RA Volunteers.  The style of Norfolk jacket shown in your photo was adopted in the RA in [edit] 1893, but was discontinued in 1898 (Campbell, Dress of RA, refers).

Edited 13 August , 2020 by FROGSMILE