Pre-War Cloth Shoulder Titles, Rank and Insignia photos.

[FROGSMILE]

A super photo Toby.  Some medal ribbons and a variant pattern of rank stripes visible too!

[Muerrisch]

and very difficult the ribbons are to interpret.

[FROGSMILE]

13 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

and very difficult the ribbons are to interpret.

Yes, I agree.  Mostly India, and perhaps South Africa, I think.  They certainly have the je ne sais quoi of grizzled veterans, and that is most decidedly a sergeants’ mess table!

Edited 13 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Dragoon]

10 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

 

Super,

I really like this postcard, I wonder what they were all doing 7 years later!

Thank you for sharing.

 

Chris 

[Muerrisch]

Toby, lovely RHA group, pity there is no gun in the picture.

 

The average age of the men must be knocking on ......... if still serving seven years later I suspect that active service might be a bit much. War is for young men ...... artillery is NOT for the elderly.

[FROGSMILE]

I suspect that most of them will have ended up as instructors on the home establishment, either for the TF or the New Armies.  If the old Farrier QMS was still capable even he would probably have found a similar role.  Such men were known as ‘dug-outs’ and even if not with the main Army many ended up in similar roles within the Volunteer Training Corps.

Edited 13 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Ron Clifton]

On 12/01/2020 at 20:54, Muerrisch said:

Alternatively the band could be within the aegis of the Garrison Artillery of course, which would at least legitimise it, even if dressed as Field Artillery.

 

Perhaps Ron Clifton can help, being the Establishments expert amongst us. I will seek his input.

Hello all

 

Much of what follows is only marginally relevant, but I have included it for the sake of completeness.

 

The Army Estimates for 1914-1915 show six Artillery bands:  the RA Mounted Band, on the establishment of the RFA, and five bands on the District Establishment of the RGA, based at Woolwich, Sheerness, Portsmouth, Plymouth and Gibraltar. A further band in Malta is referred to in the Clothing Regulations but not in the Estimates, so it was presumably disbanded some time in early 1914..

 

The establishment of the Mounted Band was a Bandmaster (warrant officer), three sergeants, one corporal, three bombardiers, one shoeing-smith, 29 Gunners and 13 Drivers. The other bands had an establishment of a Bandmaster (WO), one sergeant, one corporal and 20 Musicians, although the band at Woolwich had an extra corporal. It appears from War Establishments Part V that the band at Woolwich was the only one retained after mobilization.

 

The Clothing Regulations 1914 provide the following for the Mounted Band:
1 pair ankle boots, 1 pair Wellington boots, 1 forage cap, 1 tartan frock (except the bandmaster, who had a frock coat), 1 girdle, 1 pair of leather gloves, 1 sword knot for the bandmaster, 1 pair of cloth pantaloons, 1 pair of tweed trousers, 1 tunic, 1 greatcoat for mounted men, 1 busby and bag, 1 pair knee boots, 1 pair jack spurs.The last four items were "public clothing", which means that they were only issued to the men when they were in the band and had to be handed back when they left.

 

For the band at Woolwich:
2 pairs ankle boots, 1 pair Wellington boots, 1 forage cap, 1 cloth frock (except the bandmaster, who had a frock coat), 1 sword knot for the bandmaster, 2 pairs tweed trousers, 1 tunic, 1 greatcoat for mounted men, 1 busby and bag. The last two items were "public clothing".
.

For the other bands at home:
2 pairs ankle boots, 1 forage cap, 1 service dress cap, 2 pairs of woollen drawers, 1 canvas frock (corporals and below only), 1 frock coat for bandmaster, 1 girdle, 1 service dress jacket, 1 pair puttees, 1 pair canvas trousers (corporals and below only), 1 pair service dress trousers, 1 pair tweed trousers, 1 tunic, 1 cardigan waistcoat, 1 greatcoat for dismounted men, 1 busby and bag. The last two items were "public clothing".

 

For the band at Gibraltar (and Malta):
2 pairs ankle boots, 1 forage cap, 1 service dress cap, 1 frock coat for bandmaster, 3 khaki drill frocks, 1 serge frock, 1 Wolseley pattern helmet, 1 sword knot for the bandmaster, 2 pagris, 1 pair puttees, 3 pairs khaki drill trousers, 1 pair service dress trousers, 1 pair tartan trousers (serge for bandmaster), 1 cardigan waistcoat, 1 greatcoat for dismounted men ("public clothing").

 

There is no mention of the colours of the items, though by implication tunics would probably have been blue as for the RFA and RGA.

 

Ron

Edited 14 January , 2020 by Ron Clifton

[Toby Brayley]

15 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

Toby, lovely RHA group, pity there is no gun in the picture.

 

The average age of the men must be knocking on ......... if still serving seven years later I suspect that active service might be a bit much. War is for young men ...... artillery is NOT for the elderly.

 

Best I could do! Todays purchase, RMLI with a 12 (?) pdr! 

[FROGSMILE]

37 minutes ago, Ron Clifton said:

Hello all

 

Much of what follows is only marginally relevant, but I have included it for the sake of completeness.

 

The Army Estimates for 1914-1915 show six Artillery bands:  the RA Mounted Band, on the establishment of the RFA, and five bands on the District Establishment of the RGA, based at Woolwich, Sheerness, Portsmouth, Plymouth and Gibraltar. A further band in Malta is referred to in the Clothing Regulations but not in the Estimates, so it was presumably disbanded some time in early 1914..

 

The establishment of the Mounted Band was a Bandmaster (warrant officer), three sergeants, one corporal, three bombardiers, one shoeing-smith, 29 Gunners and 13 Drivers. The other bands had an establishment of a Bandmaster (WO), one sergeant, one corporal and 20 Musicians, although the band at Woolwich had an extra corporal. It appears from War Establishments Part V that the band at Woolwich was the only one retained after mobilization.

 

The Clothing Regulations 1914 provide the following for the Mounted Band:
1 pair ankle boots, 1 pair Wellington boots, 1 forage cap, 1 tartan frock (except the bandmaster, who had a frock coat), 1 girdle, 1 pair of leather gloves, 1 sword knot for the bandmaster, 1 pair of cloth pantaloons, 1 pair of tweed trousers, 1 tunic, 1 greatcoat for mounted men, 1 busby and bag, 1 pair knee boots, 1 pair jack spurs.The last four items were "public clothing", which means that they were only issued to the men when they were in the band and had to be handed back when they left.

 

For the band at Woolwich:
2 pairs ankle boots, 1 pair Wellington boots, 1 forage cap, 1 cloth frock (except the bandmaster, who had a frock coat), 1 sword knot for the bandmaster, 2 pairs tweed trousers, 1 tunic, 1 greatcoat for mounted men, 1 busby and bag. The last two items were "public clothing".
.

For the other bands at home:
2 pairs ankle boots, 1 forage cap, 1 service dress cap, 2 pairs of woollen drawers, 1 canvas frock (corporals and below only), 1 frock coat for bandmaster, 1 girdle, 1 service dress jacket, 1 pair puttees, 1 pair canvas trousers (corporals and below only), 1 pair service dress trousers, 1 pair tweed trousers, 1 tunic, 1 cardigan waistcoat, 1 greatcoat for dismounted men, 1 busby and bag. The last two items were "public clothing".

 

For the band at Gibraltar (and Malta):
2 pairs ankle boots, 1 forage cap, 1 service dress cap, 1 frock coat for bandmaster, 3 khaki drill frocks, 1 serge frock, 1 Wolseley pattern helmet, 1 sword knot for the bandmaster, 2 pagris, 1 pair puttees, 3 pairs khaki drill trousers, 1 pair service dress trousers, 1 pair tartan trousers (serge for bandmaster), 1 cardigan waistcoat, 1 greatcoat for dismounted men ("public clothing").

 

There is no mention of the colours of the items, though by implication tunics would probably have been blue as for the RFA and RGA.

 

Ron

A very interesting rundown of establishments, Ron, thank you for posting them.  I’m rather intrigued as to why it was only the “other bands at home” that had canvas frocks (R&F), as it implies that the mounted and Woolwich bands were never obliged to do dirty, manual work, but the others were.

 

NB.  It is a notable fact that the band at Woolwich had their own concert hall/theatre within the barracks that was the venue for regular performances that were ticketed and open to the public. I read in a history that such a facility was unique to the RA Band. 

[FROGSMILE]

37 minutes ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

Best I could do! Todays purchase, RMLI with a 12 (?) pdr! 

 

It is indeed a 12 pounder breech loading gun, Toby.  There is great detail and some colour photos of the gun here: http://silverhawkauthor.com/artillery-canada-12pounder-8cwt-qf-naval-landing-guns_963.html

 

Edited 14 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Ron Clifton]

Is that the same type of gun that was used in the Royal Navy Field Gun Competition?

 

Ron

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, Ron Clifton said:

Is that the same type of gun that was used in the Royal Navy Field Gun Competition?

 

Ron

Yes, Ron, it is the type used in the original competition circa 1890, and the silver trophy donated by the Brickwood Brewery in 1907 is a model of that gun.  In more recent times various types of smaller gun have been used and there are now variations on the original gun race according to the dimensions of the venue and ages of the competitors.

[Muerrisch]

Many thanks Ron and Toby. The drummer remains inscrutable, but a drummer no less.

[Muerrisch]

8 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

It is indeed a 12 pounder breech loading gun, Toby.  There is great detail and some colour photos of the gun here: http://silverhawkauthor.com/artillery-canada-12pounder-8cwt-qf-naval-landing-guns_963.html

 

What a fabulous site for a half hour digression!

[Ron Clifton]

22 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

A very interesting rundown of establishments, Ron, thank you for posting them.  I’m rather intrigued as to why it was only the “other bands at home” that had canvas frocks (R&F), as it implies that the mounted and Woolwich bands were never obliged to do dirty, manual work, but the others were.

I suspect that the reason is that the "other bands at home" were part of the District Establishment in the local coast defences, and only operated part-time as bands. At other times they might be asked to undertake fatigue duties around the coastal guns.

 

Ron

[FROGSMILE]

Just now, Ron Clifton said:

I suspect that the reason is that the "other bands at home" were part of the District Establishment in the local coast defences, and only operated part-time as bands. At other times they might be asked to undertake fatigue duties around the coastal guns.

 

Ron

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head, Ron.  That makes complete sense.  Photos of RGA men working around their large guns invariably show them working in canvas frocks that have been laundered so much that they look off-white.

[Toby Brayley]

thank you gents, now to keep eyes peeled for any other images of R.A types with Drummer badges! 

 

Today's arrival is rather nice and £1.50 well spent. Unsent postcard featuring what I think are Troopers of the 2nd Life Guards (buttons are the give away) with a nice mix of badges including distance judging star and a  "Serjeant-Instructor of Fencing and Gymnastics" of the 2nd Dragoons in his frock. 

 

 

 

 

Edited 15 January , 2020 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

Superb photo Toby, their immaculate appearance and strength of character really come across. Interesting to see their skill at arms badges on tunics, and the special, padded chevrons of the staff sergeant.

 

I don’t think that we will find many more RA with drum badges.  They had their own special pattern band badge, and of course a lot of trumpeters with badges, but I think that the kettle drummer might perhaps have been the only man with such a badge, as drummers within the band seem to have worn the band’s lyre badge.  I remain open minded though, so it will be interesting to see if others crop up.

Edited 15 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

15 minutes ago, Toby Brayley said:

thank you gents, now to keep eyes peeled for any other images of R.A types with Drummer badges! 

 

Today's arrival is rather nice and £1.50 well spent. Unsent postcard featuring what I think are Troopers of the 2nd Life Guards (buttons are the give away) with a nice mix of badges including distance judging star and a Squadron Serjeant Major of the 2nd Dragoons in his frock. 

 

 

 

I think the staff sergeant is the instructor of gymnastics and swordsmanship ........ exact title eludes me. Lovely group.

How often, how very often, we see cavalry marksmen, as here. Dismounted cavalry in trench scrapes were absolutely decisive in some of the desperate defensive battles of autumn and winter 1914. Cavalry musketry was extraordinarily good. This was neglected by allied and enemy cavalry alike.

 

[FROGSMILE]

I think the title was instructor of fencing and gymnasia if memory serves me right.  I was at first surprised that the cavalry had done so well with musketry pre-war, but I think that their admirable efforts were probably to do with the heated, cavalry v mounted infantry debate, that caused such controversy after the 2nd Anglo/Boer War.

Edited 15 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

yes the CRs have it as "Serjeant-Instructor of Fencing and Gymnastics" with the crown and crossed swords integral to that rank so he is not the SSM. I have amended the original caption. 

Edited 15 January , 2020 by Toby Brayley

[Dragoon]

Superb! Thank you for sharing Toby!

 

Chris 

[Muerrisch]

2 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

yes the CRs have it as "Serjeant-Instructor of Fencing and Gymnastics" with the crown and crossed swords integral to that rank so he is not the SSM. I have amended the original caption. 

Where would you be without us Toby?

[Toby Brayley]

Rather bored I fear! 

[Toby Brayley]

Unsent postcard annotated with "Our Medical Staff" on reverse.  East Lancashire Regiment c1902 wearing  the late production 7 button frock with jam pot cuffs and shoulder straps for brass STs.  Presumably a Volunteer Battalion as there is a lone Stretcher Bearer badge in wear.