Pre-War Cloth Shoulder Titles, Rank and Insignia photos.

[FROGSMILE]

36 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

The sole WO [RE?] is surely a student, and is, to me, the most interesting soldier in an absolutely fascinating set of images. Snapshots of a brief era of the most amazing fluidity of clothing.

And the sombre subtext is wondering how many of these fine men reached a contented old age.

Yes, I too think he (the WO) is RE.  They are indeed evocative photos and marking that transition from scarlet and blue frocks to drab service dress with cloth shoulder titles that occurred immediately after the 2nd Anglo/Boer War.  Many/most of the men shown will probably have become warrant officers and commissioned quartermasters during the conflagration 1914-18.

 

NB.  I’m especially pleased to see clearly that the SofM instructors’ round forage caps have scarlet rather than oak leaf bands, something that I had told our mutual friend Bruce Basset-Powell some time ago.  I can now urge him to amend our series illustrating the round forage caps and their special badges accordingly.

Edited 30 November , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Sepoy]

Wonderful photos Toby

[Dragoon]

These photos are fantastic Toby!

A real joy!

I'm annoyed because I was posted there as our regiment provided the armoured demo Sqn in 94, had a quick look around the museum but not the photos!

Absolute joy, the different uniforms are stunning!

Love this, if you could get them coppied that would be amazing!!!

Thank you Toby!

 

Chris

[Dragoon]

16 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

 

Love the 19th Hussar on the right, and the elephant arm badge.

 

Chris

[Toby Brayley]

3 hours ago, Dragoon said:

Love the 19th Hussar on the right, and the elephant arm badge.

 

 

No problem, thought they might go down well. 

 

It is indeed a great shot of the 19th Hussar and further evidence of them being late to adopt the Brodrick. 

[Toby Brayley]

He is one of the real stars of my collection.  A large mounted photograph with "Parkgate Street, Soldiers Home Dublin 1906". I posted it years back but now I have manged to scan it properly and bring it the justice it deserves.  I found this in a skip in c2009.  A nice mix of units; RIF, 3DG, 11H, RA, RE, S Staffs, RAMC, AOC, RF, Royal Berks and even a very rare Military Policeman! 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited 30 November , 2019 by Toby Brayley

[Toby Brayley]

The building is still on Parkgate Street in Dublin. 

More info here. 

http://irishgarrisontowns.com/soldiers-homes-a-refuge-from-temptation/

 

 

 

I wonder if the seated female civilian is Elise Sandes, the founder of the Soldiers' homes. 

 

[Toby Brayley]

*duplicate*

 

 

 

Edited 30 November , 2019 by Toby Brayley

[Toby Brayley]

20 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

Jaw dropping/ When do I get my Christmas present please?

 

It is on the way in the form of some bizarre ASC multiple crossed rifles photographs! 

13 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

NB.  I’m especially pleased to see clearly that the SofM instructors’ round forage caps have scarlet rather than oak leaf bands, something that I had told our mutual friend Bruce Basset-Powell some time ago.  I can now urge him to amend our series illustrating the round forage caps and their special badges accordingly.

 

There were also some superb S of M, 5 button Frocks with embroidered crossed rifles on the shoulder straps, first time I have seen them! In my excitement I forgot to get pictures, but I will on my return. 

 

Edited 30 November , 2019 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

53 minutes ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

It is on the way in the form of some bizarre ASC multiple crossed rifles photographs! 

 

There were also some superb S of M, 5 button Frocks with embroidered crossed rifles on the shoulder straps, first time I have seen them! In my excitement I forgot to get pictures, but I will on my return. 

 

That will be fantastic, I’m so pleased that you went. Decades ago I’d been in the museum many times, but none of the photos were made accessible.  Maybe we can do a series illustrating all the frocks we’ve identified using Bruce’s website. I’d love to collaborate on a book, but demand in Britain would be small, whereas on the web we could reach those interested worldwide.

 

 

Edited 30 November , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Toby Brayley said:

The building is still on Parkgate Street in Dublin. 

More info here. 

http://irishgarrisontowns.com/soldiers-homes-a-refuge-from-temptation/

 

 

 

I wonder if the seated female civilian is Elise Sandes, the founder of the Soldiers' homes. 

 

 

I think that is Elise Sandes, I recognise her face.  There was a website on the Sandes (Soldiers) Homes still functioning, and it had quite a few photos of her.

[Toby Brayley]

I will send you a PM. 

 

Yes here she is I am 100% convince it is her.

 

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

I will send you a PM. 

 

Yes here she is I am 100% convince it is her.

 

Yes, that’s the photo that I most remember.  Here is the current iteration of the website to which I referred:  http://sandes.org.uk

As a young soldier I frequented some of the homes in the 1970s, even then they were a home from home.

Edited 30 November , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Dragoon]

On 29/11/2019 at 17:46, Toby Brayley said:

 @FROGSMILE

 

Above: School of Musketry cloth shoulder titles, VR cypher cap badge of FS caps.

 

 

Has anyone an example of the SOM FS cap badge please, I can't seem to find one, cheers 

 

Chris 

[Muerrisch]

Interesting to note two different badges on SoM staff caps: with slings and without.

[Toby Brayley]

38 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Interesting to note two different badges on SoM staff caps: with slings and without.

 

Yes and there's a mix of VR and ER cyphers in the FS caps and Brodricks. 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Muerrisch said:

Interesting to note two different badges on SoM staff caps: with slings and without.

Related to pre and post a certain date.  It might be 1902, but I’m unsure.  As per usual with the SofM (since its formation) the same badge served for the arm, and for a period, the ‘tunic’ shoulder strap too.

Edited 1 December , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Toby, I assume the groups at SoM are course-end, and dated. Are you challenging us to date each one please?

[Dragoon]

20 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Related to pre and post a certain date.  It might be 1902, but I’m unsure.  As per usual with the SofM (since its formation) the same badge served for the arm, and for a period, the ‘tunic’ shoulder strap too.

Hi FROGSMILE,

The SOM chap seated in the  middle, what is the badge on the field service cap please,

Cheers

 

Chris

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, Dragoon said:

Hi FROGSMILE,

The SOM chap seated in the  middle, what is the badge on the field service cap please,

Cheers

 

Chris

 

Hello Chris, it’s the cypher of King Edward VII.  For a relatively short period all ‘garrison staff’, which it was decreed included the SofM, were ordered to wear the cypher on field service caps and Brodrick forage caps.  This was deeply unpopular, as you might imagine, and the only time that the SofM did not wear their famous, crossed rifles and crown badge on an item of headdress. At some point the order was rescinded, probably when King George V was crowned, but I have not seen the precise order.

Edited 2 December , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

The traditional badge in gilding metal, but with a Tudor, or Imperial crown (both terms were used) replaced the Edward VII cypher.  Warrant officers seem to have worn a voided crown version with a crimson velvet backing, but again I have so far been unable to find the precise regulations stipulating the differential (although I personally don’t doubt that they existed).  The situation is not entirely clear though and it’s also possible that the voided badge was an arm badge, although the larger badge appears with both a slider and loops, so the jury is out.  Throughout the history of its use the SofM corps badge was always used simultaneously as an arm (i.e. for rank) and headdress badge, in bullion wire, worsted thread and gilding metal.

 

Edited 2 December , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Dragoon]

3 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

The traditional badge in gilding metal, but with a Tudor, or Imperial crown (both terms were used) replaced the Edward VII cypher.  Warrant officers seem to have worn a voided crown version with a crimson velvet backing, but again I have so far been unable to find the precise regulations stipulating the differential (although I personally don’t doubt that they existed).  The situation is not entirely clear though and it’s also possible that the voided badge was an arm badge, although the larger badge appears with both a slider and loops, so the jury is out.  Throughout the history of its use the SofM corps badge was always used simultaneously as an arm and headdress badge, in bullion wire, worsted cloth and gilding metal.

 

Superb FROGSMILE!

Great detail as normal.

Greatly appreciated, 

Love these photos!

 

Cheers

 

Chris

[Richard Fisher]

 

On 29/11/2019 at 21:05, FROGSMILE said:

Oh my God!!!! I knew these existed but did not know that they were accessible to the public.  The museum staff, despite being ex soldiers and mostly ex SASC members like me, would I know for the most part be oblivious to the importance of the images.  Thank you so much for posting them.  

 

They're still part of the Travers Library and are somewhat cast to one side as not directly relating to the weapons in the Collection. I'm now a Trustee of the Collection and have taken on the remit of archives and library with an aim to improving their access through digitization. As Toby has said, we'll look at how they can be digitized and then shared in the New Year.

 

I showed these to Toby on Friday as I'm far from oblivious about how much of a hat nerd he is!

 

It's worth saying that I'm not an ex-soldier and, therefore, not ex-SASC; I'm the only purely civilian member of the Board of Trustees though. I'm there as a result of writing the Corps' history and I'm probably the only person to have been through all of the archive material there in that process. Given my machine gunnery focus, it does mean I have a bias towards those periods that cover that but I did photograph a lot of the reference material (including the Small Arms Committee Minutes from 1900-1938 (exc.1902) that are held there) as it saved me a couple of hours travelling each day.

 

If there is genuine interest in visiting then it can be arranged for a suitably interested group. Ex-Corps are clearly welcome. It had a full refurbishment in about 2015 so will be very different to how you remember it. Mainly security but there have been improvements in the displays as well.

 

Rich

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Richard Fisher said:

 

 

They're still part of the Travers Library and are somewhat cast to one side as not directly relating to the weapons in the Collection. I'm now a Trustee of the Collection and have taken on the remit of archives and library with an aim to improving their access through digitization. As Toby has said, we'll look at how they can be digitized and then shared in the New Year.

 

I showed these to Toby on Friday as I'm far from oblivious about how much of a hat nerd he is!

 

It's worth saying that I'm not an ex-soldier and, therefore, not ex-SASC; I'm the only purely civilian member of the Board of Trustees though. I'm there as a result of writing the Corps' history and I'm probably the only person to have been through all of the archive material there in that process. Given my machine gunnery focus, it does mean I have a bias towards those periods that cover that but I did photograph a lot of the reference material (including the Small Arms Committee Minutes from 1900-1938 (exc.1902) that are held there) as it saved me a couple of hours travelling each day.

 

If there is genuine interest in visiting then it can be arranged for a suitably interested group. Ex-Corps are clearly welcome. It had a full refurbishment in about 2015 so will be very different to how you remember it. Mainly security but there have been improvements in the displays as well.

 

Rich

Hello Rich,

 

Thank you for the reply, it has lifted me no end to know that you’re digitising and giving due regard to the images.  I left the SASC after 6-years in 1990, and have had no further dealings, but I’ve always been interested in the Army as a whole, and its uniforms during (especially) the Victorian and pre-1919 era. I knew that squad and now-styled, ‘syndicate’ photos existed going way back, so it’s wonderful that someone like you is able to focus a little on them.  
 

Uncannily I had just ordered your book after discovering it online, so it’s quite spooky to read your post here.  My hope now is that similar photos for the Army School of PT can be found (I know they exist), and also the Cavalry School (Netheravon, then Weedon), as they too exist but I’ve only ever seen two.  I imagine these latter would be much more difficult to track down because unlike the other two schools it was long ago dispersed.  However, they are just as rich with dress details as those of the SofM.

In the last two-years I’ve been collaborating with Bruce Bassett-Powell    via his ‘uniformology’ website, and worked on two projects, the round forage cap 1880-1902 (we’re just in the process of correcting an error with the SofM cap) and officers full dress insignia and dress accoutrements 1880-1902.  Another project, but on the periphery, is the history of the Corps of Armourer Sergeants, with the lead author who lives in Australia.  There is of course a link with the SofM in terms of mutual interest in tools of the trade.

Edited 3 December , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

12 hours ago, Dragoon said:

Superb FROGSMILE!

Great detail as normal.

Greatly appreciated, 

Love these photos!

 

Cheers

 

Chris

Glad to help Chris.  Before the Edward VII cypher was issued the Victorian version was used for the field service cap.  Both were without crown on the FSC and I believe were probably originally collar badges coopted into use for headdress.  Only the Edward VII badge was used on the Brodrick.

 

Edited 3 December , 2019 by FROGSMILE