Pre-War Cloth Shoulder Titles, Rank and Insignia photos.

[Toby Brayley]

It was more luck on my part trying to decipher them. Here are the photographs courtesy of Debbie Wright via Facebook. You will recognise the latter, unmistakably being taken at Horseguards.  

 

[FROGSMILE]

15 minutes ago, Toby Brayley said:

It was more luck on my part trying to decipher them. Here are the photographs courtesy of Debbie Wright via Facebook. You will recognise the latter, unmistakably being taken at Horseguards. 

Superb photos, and showing serge frocks too.  I’m fairly sure that the HC were the very last regiments to give up (reluctantly) the stable jacket.  It’s always amused me too that the HC did not wear forage cap badges for quite a while after the introduction of that headdress. They hadn’t worn one with the pillbox cap and round (staff) forage cap, and could see no reason to change!

 

 

Edited 26 November , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

and for service dress pre 1915 .......

Household Cavalry Ranks, Appointments, Precedence, Badges in Service Dress, Pay etc. in the Great War

4^th August 1914 until May 1915.

 

Rank   From King’s Regulations [KR] 1914	Appointment listed by rank   From Pay Warrant 1914 [PW]	Pay   From Pay Warrant 1914	Comment	Badges   From Clothing Regulations 1894 Many appointment titles are different in this list	Badges   From Clothing Regulations 1914	Lineker & Dine or Dawnay   agreement or otherwise	Peace Establishment [PE] 1914	War Establishment [WE] 1914	Notes
Trooper		1/9-  [A private in the cavalry of the line received 1/2-]		none ....”rank Private”	None ..... Trooper		316	316	KR rank Level (viii) sic
	Boy	8d		-	-	-	-	-
	Kettle drummer	2/4-		none	none		1	1
	Bandsman	1/9-		none	Appointment Bandsman not listed, an error	-	-	-
	Saddler, Saddle tree maker	2/4 ½- 2/4 ½-		No bit badge listed	No bit badge listed		2 1	2 1
	Trumpeter	1/11-		No trumpet badge listed	No trumpet badge listed		7	7
	Shoeing smith	2/3-		horseshoe	horseshoe		4	4
	Roughrider not listed.			-	-		-	-	If a Trooper appointed, an extra 6d per day
.
Lance corporal		As Trooper	There is no doubt whatsoever that the HC had LCpls in the Great War, see CWGC deaths.	-	2 chevrons sic [Possibly no crown, evidence from wartime film c.1916 only].	General agreement that paid LCpls intro 1921			Level (viii) sic Unlike the remainder of the army there was no provision for paid Lance Corporals until after the Great War
Corporal		2/8-		Crown ,2 chevrons	Crown ,2 chevrons	Dawnay “a Crown formed an integral part of every [rank]badge” L&D illustrate LG & RHG 1890	16	16	Level (vi) sic
	Shoeing smith Corporal	2/9-		Crown ,2 chevrons horseshoe	Crown ,2 chevrons horseshoe		4	4
	Orderly Room Clerk	2/8-	Or as a Corporal of Horse additional to  Orderly Room Cpl of Horse shown below	-	Crown, 2 chevrons		1	1
Corporal of Horse		3/0-	Note that in the 1894 CR several appointments clearly at 1914 Corporal of Horse level are termed “Corporal”	Crown, 3 chevrons	Crown, 3 chevrons	Dawnay “a Crown formed an integral part of every badge” L&D illustrate LG, RHG 1890	28	29 includes Transport	Level (v)
	Corporal of Horse Trumpeter	3/2-	Official title	Crown, Crossed trumpets, 4 chevrons point up	Crown, Crossed trumpets, 4 chevrons point up		1	1
	Corporal Cook	3/6-		Badge according to rank	Crown, 3 chevrons		1	1
	Farrier Corporal of Horse	3/4-		Crown, 3 chevrons, & horseshoe	Crown, 3 chevrons. No mention horseshoe		8	8
	Saddler  Corporal of Horse	4/0-		Crown,  chevrons			1  [or a Saddler Staff Corporal]	1  [or a Saddler Staff Corporal]
	Band Corporal	Not listed		Not listed	Crown, 3 chevrons. No band badge		Not listed	Not listed
	Orderly Room Cpl of Horse	3/-		Crown, 3 chevrons	Crown, 3 chevrons		1	1
	Drill Corporal	-		Crown, crossed swords, 4 chevrons point up.	“and crossed swords” An incomplete reference.	-	Not listed	Not listed	Rank unknown, in context might be Level vi, v or iv.
Staff Corporal	Farrier Staff Corporal	3/10-		Crown, 4 chevrons point up. horseshoe	Crown, 4 chevrons point up. No horseshoe listed		1 Title Farrier Quartermaster Corporal	1 Title Farrier Quartermaster Corpora	These three official ranks are shown as equal in KR at Level (iv)   [they are all “Staff Corporals” and equate with Colour Sergeants. No Staff Corporals as such appear among the dead of the Household c Cavalry in the Great War]
	Saddler Staff Corporal	4/0-	Apparently same pay as Saddler Cpl of Horse.		No bit badge listed		1 Or a Saddler Corporal of Horse	1 Or a Saddler Corporal of Horse
Squadron Quartermaster Corporal		3/6-		Crown , 4 chevrons point up	Crown , 4 chevrons point up	Dawnay seems to say Crown omitted in 1914 and previously, in error?	4	4
Squadron Corporal Major		4/6-		Crown , 4 chevrons point up	Crown , 4 chevrons point up	L&D 1906	5	5
	Squadron Corporal Major instructor, fencing,  Squadron Corporal Major instructor musketry	3/3-			Crown , 4 chevrons point up, crossed swords   Crown , 4 chevrons point up, crossed rifles	L&D 1907	1       1	1       1
	Squadron Corporal Major Roughrider	4/0			Crown , 4 chevrons point up, spur	L&D 1906, 1907	1	1
(Regimental) Quartermaster Corporal Major		4/6-			Crown, 4 chevrons, star	Dawnay. Crown, 4 chevrons, 8 point star 1887. Also 8 point star on frock in 1910 L&D	1	1	Level (iii) [this level equates with QM Sgt rank]
	Farrier Quartermaster Corporal	4/3-	The most senior Farrier ranking changed several times over a short period.	Crown, 4 chevrons. No mention horseshoe for jacket of the period	Crown, 4 chevrons. No mention horseshoe for jacket		1	1
	Orderly Room Corporal of Horse						Accounted above	Accounted above	These two appointments could be filled at Level (v, iv or iii)
	Paymaster  Corporal of Horse		Not on PE WE or PW					-
	Saddler Quartermaster Corporal	4/2-	A side-bar addition to PW 1914	Not listed	Not listed			-
(Regimental) Corporal Major		5/10-		Crown	Crown	L&D 1907			Warrant Officer
	Farrier Corporal Major	5/4-	In PW but not WE or PE. The most senior Farrier ranking, the status changed several times over a short period.	Crown, horseshoe	Crown, horseshoe			-

 

L&D Lineker and Dine

[FROGSMILE]

The rules for SD would fall into the same category as those previously for stable jackets and serge frocks.  Ergo with the special caveats for full dress tunics.

[Toby Brayley]

13 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

and for service dress pre 1915 .......

Household Cavalry Ranks, Appointments, Precedence, Badges in Service Dress, Pay etc. in the Great War

4^th August 1914 until May 1915.

 

 

 

Super thank you! 

[Toby Brayley]

Latest addition is this stunning CDV of an Unknown Trooper of the 18th or 21st Battalion (Sharpshooters) Imperial Yeomanry c1900. For once it is nice to be able to identify the unit!

 

A fine study of the Serge I.Y pocketed frock with crossed rifles. 

 

 

Red and blue rosette with Sharpshooters badge. 

 

Edited 27 November , 2019 by Toby Brayley

[Sepoy]

1 hour ago, Toby Brayley said:

Latest addition is this stunning CDV of an Unknown Trooper of the 18th Battalion (Sharpshooters) Imperial Yeomanry c1900. For once it is nice to be able to identify the unit!

 

A fine study of the Serge I.Y pocketed frock with crossed rifles. 

 

 

Red and blue rosette with Sharpshooters badge. 

 

Nice photograph Toby!
It is good to see a Anglo Boer War period photo with recognisable insignia.
I am currently just around the corner from the Pavement in North Camp.
Sepoy

[FROGSMILE]

Superb CDV, as you say, Toby.  It’s good to see the IY frock.  The officers version apparently often had pockets lined in chamois leather, which must’ve been very hard wearing, but also heavy.  Thank you for posting.

Edited 27 November , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

Most welcome gents. This is the same chap, I suspect on his return from S.A. It would appear his fancy frock and slouch didn't stand up to the rigors of campaigning! he now has the standard 1899 serge. 

 

[FROGSMILE]

Yes, a much more workaday appearance!  I wonder if he still had his expensive Stohwasser gaiters.  He was rather poshly dressed for a private.

[Sepoy]

Here is a studio photograph of a member of French's Scout wearing khaki drill, circa 1899 - 1901.
The back of the photo is named J Bright, but I have failed to discover any records to a J Bright serving with the unit.

Sepoy

[Dragoon]

11 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

Latest addition is this stunning CDV of an Unknown Trooper of the 18th or 21st Battalion (Sharpshooters) Imperial Yeomanry c1900. For once it is nice to be able to identify the unit!

 

A fine study of the Serge I.Y pocketed frock with crossed rifles. 

 

 

Red and blue rosette with Sharpshooters badge. 

 

Superb!

 

Chris

4 hours ago, Sepoy said:

Here is a studio photograph of a member of French's Scout wearing khaki drill, circa 1899 - 1901.
The back of the photo is named J Bright, but I have failed to discover any records to a J Bright serving with the unit.

Sepoy

Hi Sepoy

What is the shoulder title on this chap please?

Chris 

[Sepoy]

22 hours ago, Dragoon said:

Hi Sepoy

What is the shoulder title on this chap please?

Chris 

Hi Chris
The curved shoulder title reads FRENCHS over a large S.
See here
https://www.dnw.co.uk/auction-archive/past-catalogues/lot.php?auction_id=275&lot_uid=232598

Cheers
Sepoy
 

[Toby Brayley]

On 27/11/2019 at 18:34, Sepoy said:

Here is a studio photograph of a member of French's Scout wearing khaki drill, circa 1899 - 1901.
The back of the photo is named J Bright, but I have failed to discover any records to a J Bright serving with the unit.

Sepoy

 

 That one really is a beauty, thank you! 

[Dragoon]

1 hour ago, Sepoy said:

Hi Chris
The curved shoulder title reads FRENCHS over a large S.
See here
https://www.dnw.co.uk/auction-archive/past-catalogues/lot.php?auction_id=275&lot_uid=232598

Cheers
Sepoy
 

Thank you Sepoy, another one I didn't know about, everyday is a school day on this forum 

 

Cheers 

Chris 

[Toby Brayley]

Here is an early Christmas present for @FROGSMILE.   Today I was fortunate enough to visit the Small Arms School Collection at Warminster. Naturally I had a good look at the weapons. What is often overlooked is the photograph collection that they have, every Musketry course from the 1860s to post World War 2 with the names, units and the scores of the attendees a real hitherto undiscovered gem.  They were more than happy for me to photograph some of the cadres. Hopefully I will be returning in the new year to work on professionally digitising them.  They were simply jaw dropping to a sad individual like myself.  Cloth STs, Brodricks and Musketry badges galore, just the tip of the iceberg. 

 

 

Above: School of Musketry cloth shoulder titles, VR cypher cap badge of FS caps.

 

 

Above: I will let the picture do the talking, a whole mix of units, Brodricks and cloth shoulder titles. 

Edited 29 November , 2019 by Toby Brayley

[Toby Brayley]

 

 

[Toby Brayley]

 

 

Above: note the Brodrick cover, this was introduced for musketry practice, so it is nice to see the SIM and QMSIM in them. 

 

[Toby Brayley]

 

 

[Muerrisch]

Jaw dropping/ When do I get my Christmas present please?

[Muerrisch]

20 hours ago, Sepoy said:

Hi Chris
The curved shoulder title reads FRENCHS over a large S.
See here
https://www.dnw.co.uk/auction-archive/past-catalogues/lot.php?auction_id=275&lot_uid=232598

Cheers
Sepoy
 

Sepoy Please get in touch with Muerrisch

Edited 29 November , 2019 by Muerrisch

[FROGSMILE]

Oh my God!!!! I knew these existed but did not know that they were accessible to the public.  The museum staff, despite being ex soldiers and mostly ex SASC members like me, would I know for the most part be oblivious to the importance of the images.  Thank you so much for posting them.  
 

I believe that similar photos might exist for the School of PT at Aldershot, as although during WW1 photos largely show men in the then PT or bayonet fighting kit, in the Victorian period that might not be the case.  

 

I’d also like to know what happened to the Cavalry School squad photos. Initially at Netheravon, Wilts, the school finished up at Weedon, Northants. I’m hoping that photos were saved, but I don’t know where they might be.

 

Thank you again....

 

Frogsmile 

 

P.S. I love how the SofM staff were among the very last other ranks to retain the round (staff) forage cap 1880-1902 pattern.   One can imagine them being cared for and treasured when decreed obsolescent, as they had been an iconic and very popular mark of status for all those in every corps authorised to wear them.  Their successor corps, the SASC, were (along with CRMP) among the very last to wear the 1905 SD forage cap.  ‘Plus ca change’!

Edited 30 November , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

There seems a paucity of warrant officers: I can only see one, possibly a Royal Engineer.

 

Did the Sof M not have WOs, or were they too grand to be in groups?

Edited 29 November , 2019 by Muerrisch

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

There seems a paucity of warrant officers: I can only see one, possibly a Royal Engineer.

 

Did the Sof M not have WOs, or were they too grand to be in groups?

Just the one grade of warrant officer until 1915, as per all other parts of the Army.  There were not many of them.  Their function was administrative rather than as instructors.  That is unchanged today, with just WO2s with QMS appointments involved in instruction (although the WO1s occasionally deliver high level lectures).  The most senior instructors in the photos above are also QMS, but of course not WOs until 1915.

Edited 30 November , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

The sole WO [RE?] is surely a student, and is, to me, the most interesting soldier in an absolutely fascinating set of images. Snapshots of a brief era of the most amazing fluidity of clothing.

And the sombre subtext is wondering how many of these fine men reached a contented old age.