Pre-War Cloth Shoulder Titles, Rank and Insignia photos.

[Toby Brayley]

A VERY rare, Army Pay Corps Tunic, Clothing Regs state the 4 Bar Chevron for APC is the Quarter Master Serjeant. Love the bullion embroidered APC. The ealry frocks also had embroidered, worsted APC.

 

[Muerrisch]

Good one. The APC were an elite, not in the sense of Guards or Rifles, but because of the positions of trust that they occupied. I will squirrel away and look at pay differentials because I believe that they were paid more than most.

[Muerrisch]

This is 1913. Very few were paid more. These are  the warrant officers. Very few were paid more than the APC.

NB the artificers topping the lot, reflecting the need to service the increasingly complex armaments. I believe that the army had insufficient in-house training thus young skilled men had to be enticed to enlist by top whack.

Edited 17 October , 2019 by Muerrisch
addendum

[Toby Brayley]

Having seen the contemporary  APC maths entrance exams I can see why they are paid well, made my eyes water! 

 

Paid very well to be an artificer!! Thank you for sharing. 

 

 

[Toby Brayley]

On 17/10/2019 at 19:19, Muerrisch said:

 Very few were paid more. These are  the warrant officers. Very few were paid more than the APC.

 

 

 

The extract you posted also coincides with the label in this Frock, before I consulted the CRs I had wondered what the exact definition of SSM was within the APC. The single crown is listed as Staff Sergeant Major and is backed up by your extract and the label. This frock is very interesting, it is lined  and made from "tunic cloth" rather than serge and is certainly made longer than the Corps and Infantry frocks I have.

 

Edited 19 October , 2019 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

The Staff Sergeant Major along with his First Class superior of similar title were both warrant officers first class just as were their more famous brethren the Conductor and Sub Conductor.  As warrant officers they were both entitled to First Class garments as they were categorised at the time and similar in quality to equivalent items worn (and paid for personally) by commissioned officers.

I disagree with m’learned friend Muerrisch with regards to artificers being specifically enticed by superior rates of pay as if they somehow arrived already trained.  In fact Armourers certainly had long been at the top of the tree even as far back as the time when they had their own specific corps.  Along with Armament Artificers these men began as sergeants on superior rates of pay and progressed to warrant officer rank whilst continuing to receive the highest rates of pay.  Indeed the superior pay was long-standing and in the case of the cavalry and infantry extended back as far as the time when the Armourer Sergeant was one of just six staff sergeants within a unit and always with superior pay.

Edited 20 October , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

9 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

The Staff Sergeant Major along with his First Class superior of similar title were both warrant officers first class just as were their more famous brethren the Conductor and Sub Conductor.  As warrant officers they were both entitled to First Class garments as

 

Thank you, I was aware of the First Garments, however I was surprised to find just how high of a higher quality the frock is in comparison. There is also a "sergeant" specific frock of same cut but in rough serge with gold embellishments.

 

I have a few first class tunics of SMs (etc etc) but they don't differ above their junior ranks the way the frocks do. It is just pre war to, but would have been worn after war broke out seeing as its dated July 1914 and issued.

Edited 20 October , 2019 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

13 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

Thank you, I was aware of the First Garments, however I was surprised to find just how high of a higher quality the frock is in comparison. There is also a "sergeant" specific frock of same cut but in rough serge with gold embellishments.

 

I have a few first class tunics of SMs (etc etc) but they don't differ above their junior ranks the way the frocks do. It is just pre war to, but would have been worn after war broke out seeing as its dated July 1914 and issued.

The policy at different times is unclear to me.  In some earlier RA clothing regulations there is mention of frocks being issued to WOs of the same quality as all ranks below, but with appropiate badges.  
Yet for tunics most arms of the service carefully specified First Class garments for WOs AND staff sergeants of the first class (including second class dressed as first class such as the music majors), as well as, usually, members of the band!  Cavalry varied according to their branch; Lancers, Hussars etc.  Artillery also varied.  One literally has to examine clothing regulations for each part of the Army.  There wasn’t a universal standard, which implies that these differences must have been settled upon at high level, not least because they had to be costed and funded. 

Edited 20 October , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

The Staff Sergeant Major along with his First Class superior of similar title were both warrant officers first class.

 

They were indeed Warrant Officers, with the First Class man in the elite "top four" with the Conductor, Master Gunner First, and the Schoolmaster First.

 

When the "First Class" split was made in 1915 the Staff Sergeant Major was not included, although  the Sub Conductor was. Perhaps the Staff Sergeant Majors were subsumed into the 1st Class, but regardless of this they did not appear as WO Class II and the rank/appointment appears to disappear. I need to have a sniff round.

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

The Staff Sergeant Major along with his First Class superior of similar title were both warrant officers first class.

 

They were indeed Warrant Officers, with the First Class man in the elite "top four" with the Conductor, Master Gunner First, and the Schoolmaster First.

 

When the "First Class" split was made in 1915 the Staff Sergeant Major was not included, although  the Sub Conductor was. Perhaps the Staff Sergeant Majors were subsumed into the 1st Class, but regardless of this they did not appear as WO Class II and the rank/appointment appears to disappear. I need to have a sniff round.

I’m confident that they were subsumed into one appointment, and Army Pay Corps WOs1 all became Staff Sergeant Major (without a ‘class’ designation) and WOs2 became Staff Quartermaster Sergeant, which remained the situation until the RAPC was merged into the Adjutant General’s Corps in the 1990s.  The designator ‘staff’ became key in that all were WOs on the Pay Staff of the Army.

Edited 20 October , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

19 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

The Staff Sergeant Major along with his First Class superior of similar title were both warrant officers first class just as were their more famous brethren the Conductor and Sub Conductor.  As warrant officers they were both entitled to First Class garments as they were categorised at the time and similar in quality to equivalent items worn (and paid for personally) by commissioned officers.

I disagree with m’learned friend Muerrisch with regards to artificers being specifically enticed by superior rates of pay as if they somehow arrived already trained.  In fact Armourers certainly had long been at the top of the tree even as far back as the time when they had their own specific corps.  Along with Armament Artificers these men began as sergeants on superior rates of pay and progressed to warrant officer rank whilst continuing to receive the highest rates of pay.  Indeed the superior pay was long-standing and in the case of the cavalry and infantry extended back as far as the time when the Armourer Sergeant was one of just six staff sergeants within a unit and always with superior pay.

They began as sergeants BECAUSE they had already the skills, surely? Otherwise train privates in house. There was little in house training that I can find, just trade tests of competencies. This is not an area where I have any depth of knowledge, just applying Thatcherite principles!

[FROGSMILE]

12 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

They began as sergeants BECAUSE they had already the skills, surely? Otherwise train privates in house. There was little in house training that I can find, just trade tests of competencies. This is not an area where I have any depth of knowledge, just applying Thatcherite principles!

In the early periods (long before WW1) they certainly mainly (but not always) joined already qualified as gunsmiths (principally from Birmingham and London), but from 1896, when the Corps of Armourers was absorbed by the AOC, a gradual programme of instruction began with the aim of a more progressive training, not least because the number of types of weapons requiring expertise had increased significantly, especially in the area of machine guns (each ‘type’ of which was certificated).  However, there was for various reasons always a shortage of sufficient trained Armourers and this ensured the continuance of a premium rate for their remuneration.

Edited 21 October , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Quite so, that is what my limited reading suggested.

[FROGSMILE]

10 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

Quite so, that is what my limited reading suggested.

Much of my information came from our mutual friend Peter in Australia, who has been compiling a history for some year’s now. I am hoping that he will publish it eventually.

[Toby Brayley]

 

New arrival, Cabinet Card of a Light Infantry (I suspect KSLI) Pioneer Serjeant. 

 

[Muerrisch]

Very nice thank you. Care to date it? c 1900 is my best shot.

Edited 22 October , 2019 by Muerrisch

[FROGSMILE]

Cracking photo and undoubtedly KLI/KSLI, who as one of just two Royal ‘faced’ light infantry regiments (the other Prince Albert’s Somerset’s) wore scarlet cloth backing to their rank insignia on whites and (later) KD.  He is very likely 2nd Battalion, who were in South Africa 1899-1903 and then India 1903-1914.  The 2nd Battalion had previously been the 85th Regiment of Foot and it was they who earned the honorary King’s light infantry appellation.  They had also claimed precedence as the first light infantry regiment, but as it had not been a continuous lineage in that guise had to concede the position to the 43rd and 52nd Regiments of Foot.

Edited 22 October , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Interesting about the scarlet backing for Royal regiments, I had not encountered that before. Did non-Royal back theirs with facing colour .... they certainly backed them with something.

Several examples on the "Indian uniforms " thread,

I will attempt to attach Welsh regt example. 

[Muerrisch]

NF, DWR, SWB all seem to have backing on whites/KD.

 

I had assumed that all backing was scarlet on all infantry.

[FROGSMILE]

On 22/10/2019 at 17:13, Muerrisch said:

Interesting about the scarlet backing for Royal regiments, I had not encountered that before. Did non-Royal back theirs with facing colour .... they certainly backed them with something.

Several examples on the "Indian uniforms " thread,

I will attempt to attach Welsh regt example. 

 

 
Rank backing on whites and smart (i.e. in-barracks) KD was invariably in facing colour, SWB, Notts & Derby, Devons, Dorsets, various shades of green, and, e.g. the Essex Regt 2nd Battalion (ex 56th) famously in Pompadour purple.  This was the origin of the much later cap badge backings, the lineage of which still exists today.  The Welsh Regt used red, as per the 41st’s original facings.  Most regiments that had white facings foisted upon them C1881 did the same.  It was very much a ‘peacetime soldiering’ thing, as I think you’ll understand.  It lasted a surprisingly long time and I can remember at the very beginning of my own direct association with the Army seeing the 1st Bn SWB using grass green backing to their rank on KD/OD, and the Provost Sergeant with a green cap cover.  That would have been around 1968.

 

NB.  The backing to infantry officers pre-1881 glengarry badges is often referred to as scarlet by K&K, I’m not sure if that was always the case.  That might be where you got the idea of pan-infantry scarlet. Thank 

Edited 24 October , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Thank you very much.

Every day a school day!

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Muerrisch said:

Thank you very much.

Every day a school day!

One aspect that fascinated me is that in regiments formed from hitherto unconnected numbered regiments in 1881, the 1st Battalion would sometimes wear a different backing to the 2nd Battalion.  Similarly their respective sports teams would often refer to themselves as e.g. 41st and 69th, and wear old emblems.

Edited 22 October , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Robin Garrett]

17 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Cracking photo and undoubtedly KLI/KSLI, who as one of just two Royal ‘faced’ light infantry regiments (the other Prince Albert’s Somerset’s) wore scarlet cloth backing to their rank insignia on whites and (later) KD.  He is very likely 2nd Battalion, who were in South Africa 1899-1903 and then India 1903-1914.  The 2nd Battalion had previously been the 85th Regiment of Foot and it was they who earned the honorary King’s light infantry appellation.  They had also claimed precedence as the first light infantry regiment, but as it had not been a continuous lineage in that guise had to concede the position to the 43rd and 52nd Regiments of Foot.

The officers of the 85th protected the Prince Regent when he was being heckled at a theatre in Brighton and he awarded them the title of Duke of York's Light Infantry. When he became George IV, the title was revised to King's Light Infantry.

Frogsmile is right in commenting that the regiment was raised and disbanded several times; hence its motto (carried forward to the KSLI post 1881) of Aucto Resurgo Splendore (Again I arise with Increased Splendour).

[Toby Brayley]

Right on cue (and by pure chance) this chap arrived in the post this morning. A volunteer 85th The King's Regiment of Light Infantry. 4x Efficiency stars, proficiency star and lozenge.  

 

 

 

Edited 24 October , 2019 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

It must be very soon after 1881, as he still wears the white facings of his previous Rifle Volunteer unit, as well as pre-1881 numbered insignia, for just one of the two constituent regular regiments that formed the new (as opposed to previous) KLI/KSLI.  As the 85th (King’s Light Infantry) Regiment of Foot had no volunteer battalions (i.e. prior to 1881 Cardwell/Childers Reforms), it’s all a little odd.  His rank appears to be Quarter Master Sergeant.

Edited 29 October , 2019 by FROGSMILE