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The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Pre-War Cloth Shoulder Titles, Rank and Insignia photos.


Toby Brayley

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Army Service Corps, early Service Dress and early style chevrons.  

 

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I have this one of SWB, pre-war I guess. Comes with others ww1 patches.

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13 hours ago, Florent said:

I have this one of SWB, pre-war I guess. Comes with others ww1 patches.

 


An excellent example that shows very well the thick worsted thread used to make the titles at that time.  Thank you for posting, Florent.

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Is it imaginable that such cloth titles were in use in 1914 ?

This one comes, with a dozen other cloth patches/titles, from a french officer collection, who collected them in Le Havre harbour during the war.

 

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48 minutes ago, Florent said:

Is it imaginable that such cloth titles were in use in 1914 ?

This one comes, with a dozen other cloth patches/titles, from a french officer collection, who collected them in Le Havre harbour during the war.

 


I don’t think it was still worn in 1914, as they were replaced with metal shoulder titles from 1907 onwards, but perhaps an ‘old soldier’ retained one in his kit, it’s not impossible.  

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Too nice not to share, rather devoid of insignia save for the Geneva Cross. 

 

Royal Army Medical Corps Orderly. Named on the reverse as Walter Marriot, 1902. This goes right into one of the best in my collection. 

 

Walter lied about his age and joined the Army aged 16, he was a stretcher bearer during the 2nd Boer War.

 

He is pictured here in full 1899 Serge with 1888 Slade Wallace Equipment, unusually (for RAMC) with an ammunition pouch. He also carries the Lancaster Bayonet as a sidearm, common with the RAMC of the era, but I have never seen it worn with 1899 serge and worn this late before.

 

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Edited by Toby Brayley
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Thank you, interesting thought is provoked by ammunition pouch and side-arm:

 

Were the Boers that  the British Army was fighting signatories to the Geneva Convention? Regardless of how we might perceive it now, at the time they could scarcely claim independence or statehood .............. pardon my ignorance on such high matters of state. BUT SEE  #885 below

 

Which brings me to the thought that there was no obvious reason at the time to treat the Boers as necessarily civilized opponents, Much easier to lump them as pale and well armed versions of Zulus, Dervishes, Fuzzy Wuzzies etc and arm the RAMC for its own protection, as the Convention allowed.

 

In retrospect that seems absurd, but we may just have a whiff of attitudes in 1898.

Edited by Muerrisch
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18 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

Too nice not to share, rather devoid of insignia save for the Geneva Cross. 

 

Royal Army Medical Corps Orderly. Named on the reverse as Walter Marriot, 1902. This goes right into one of the best in my collection. 

 

Walter lied about his age and joined the Army aged 16, he was a stretcher bearer during the 2nd Boer War.

 

He is pictured here in full 1899 Serge with 1888 Slade Wallace Equipment, unusually (for RAMC) with an ammunition pouch. He also carries the Lancaster Bayonet as a sidearm, common with the RAMC of the era, but I have never seen it worn with 1899 serge and worn this late before.

 


For a long time RAMC forebears (hospital corps etc) all carried a special short sword, rather like bandsmen did (in both cases it was their only issued weapon and both types are collectors pieces now) and my impression is that the Lancaster bayonet was in effect a replacement for the sword in terms of standard dress for a medic.  Of course a few years after your photo most swords were abandoned in light of the conditions on an industrial scale battlefield.  It’s a great photo, thank you for posting.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Whilst pre (2nd Anglo Boer) War photos and illustrations of the Lancaster are fairly common. There are a number of fantastic images of it in use with frocks etc on manoeuvres in the UK and in pre-embarkation photographs in KD. I can't recall ever seeing them being worn in South Africa. They must have been very cumbersome, especially bending down picking up stretchers/casualties. I think this staged shot illustrates my point rather well.  Anyway I fear I am digressing somewhat! 

 

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Edited by Toby Brayley
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3 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

I has to ask!

 

What was in the pouch, given that it was not, officially, ammunition?

 
Probably field dressings, or maybe a simple first aid treatment kit would be my guess.

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London University Officer Training Corps, 1910.  Efficiency Lozenge, components of the 1903 bandolier equipment and a MK1 SMLE. 

London OTC 1910.jpg

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A large 16inch tall photograph of a 5th Dragoon Guard.  Crossed rifles, 5 bar QSA. he wears an interesting frock with cuffs and collar that are evidently velvet. Presumably Scarlet with green facings, as with the 5th DG Tunic. I have seen plenty of images of the Cavalry frocks but not with such a nice embellishment.

5DG Large.jpg

Edited by Toby Brayley
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Yes, it’s an unusual frock.  Velvet facings were standard on DG tunics, as you know, but not universally on frocks.  Thank you for posting.  These frocks were often referred to as ‘jumpers’, according to Winston Churchill’s earliest autobiography.

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Something that jumps out of these portraits to me very often, and not much commented on.

 

Despite a certain pitying attitude, both then and now, towards the junior ranks ["Tommy this and Tommy that ........; only a penny a day, Victorian Barracks, VD .......] I see a pride, a sense of self-worth,  a  sense of patriotism.

 

These were men, not snowflakes.

 

We should salute them.

 

Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries

 

These, in the day when heaven was falling,

The hour when earth's foundations fled,

Followed their mercenary calling,

And took their wages, and are dead.

 

Their shoulders held the sky suspended;

They stood, and earth's foundations stay;

What God abandoned, these defended,

And saved the sum of things for pay.

 

A.E. Housman

 

 

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A friend recently took these on a visit to the The King's Regiment collection.

 

The only time I have seen the Stretcher Bearer (SB) badge on a real uniform!

 

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Kindly shared, with permission, from my 1888-1914 Facebook group. https://www.facebook.com/groups/1885482761668080/

 

Royal Horse Guards Stable Jacket to Richard Charles Hives. Staff Corporal Farrier with (pre 1906, when he left) 2nd/3rd prize crossed swords and crossed rifles.

 

 

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Edited by Toby Brayley
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5 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

Kindly shared, with permission, from my 1888-1914 Facebook group. https://www.facebook.com/groups/1885482761668080/

 

Royal Horse Guards Stable Jacket to Richard Charles Hives. Staff Corporal Farrier with (pre 1906, when he left) 2nd/3rd prize crossed swords and crossed rifles.

 

 


A superb example of the HC stable jacket.  In general the cavalry were among the last units to discontinue this popular garment that was replaced by the other ranks serge patrol frock with chest pockets.  Thank you for posting the photos.

 

I think it’s important to note that while it’s true that the owner was a member of the regimental staff and thus collectively one of the staff sergeants, his badge and appointment is that of a Farrier Quartermaster Corporal according to the then Queen’s Regulations for the Army.  There is a good explanation of all the Army badges of rank and appointment in the book “Rank Badges and Dates”, by Ottley Lane Perry, published in 1887 and revised 1888.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Thank you Frogsmile, there were some great photos with it. Featuring the unique ranks and  appointments of the RHG. I will see if I can, share them. 

 

I was going from the 1890s CRs rather confusing! 

 

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Edited by Toby Brayley
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16 minutes ago, Toby Brayley said:

Thank you Frogsmile, there were some great photos with it. Featuring the unique ranks and  appointments of the RHG. I will see if I can, share them. 

 

I was going from the 1890s CRs rather confusing! 

 

 


I don’t think it had changed.  If you look in the columns to the right I would expect to see that a Staff Corporal Farrier had 3-bar, rather than 4-bar chevrons?  Doesn’t the Farrier QMC say 4-bar chevrons?  I don’t think that aiguillettes were worn with stable jackets.  However a Cpl of Horse had a 3-bar chevron with a crown cavalry arm badge so perhaps both the farrier appointments had a 4-bar chevron.

 

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9 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:


a Staff Corporal Farrier had 3-bar, rather than 4-bar chevrons?  Doesn’t the Farrier QMC say 4-bar chevrons?  I don’t think that aiguillettes were worn with stable jackets.

 

 

 That's what's confusing me, it states that the Staff Corporal Farrier also had 4 chevrons! Here's the full page. 

 

 

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I have the same clothing regulations as you and I see that you are bang on the money and correct.  Only the Staff Corporal Farrier wore the crown on stable jackets and serge frocks. Mea Culpa.  It’s the little asterisk and dagger symbols that explain the dress caveats. The FQMC wore the crown on tunics only, even though he was the senior!  “Confusing” is very apt!  It did not help matters that the Royal crown was the regimental arm badge and simultaneously used for rank too.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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