Pre-War Cloth Shoulder Titles, Rank and Insignia photos.

[Toby Brayley]

22 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

.  They seem to be different to that used by regulars. See enclosed.  Perhaps they are large Acorns with leaves?

 

 

 

 

Best I could do. It could well be an acorn!

Edited 20 August , 2019 by Toby Brayley

[Toby Brayley]

Another example of the Geneva Cross being worn by non RAMC personnel (as per discussion way back in post #209). Once again it is a Volunteer Artillery unit.  Unsent postcard c1906. 

 

some nice detailing here.  Perhaps they are the Medical staff for their summer camp or similar. 

Edited 20 August , 2019 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

On 20/08/2019 at 13:08, Toby Brayley said:

 

 

 

 

Best I could do. It could well be an acorn!

 

No, it’s a crowned bugle horn, reflecting their RVC heritage. Great job with the enlargement.  Earl of Chester’s Own - see wall crest below.  Later badge (EVIIR) was French type horn ECVR: Earl Chester’s Volunteer Rifles.

 

Edited 23 August , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

28 minutes ago, Toby Brayley said:

Another example of the Geneva Cross being worn by non RAMC personnel (as per discussion way back in post #209). Once again it is a Volunteer Artillery unit.  Unsent postcard c1906. 

 

some nice detailing here.  Perhaps they are the Medical staff for their summer camp or similar. 

 

  

Another photo with interesting features, an unusual pattern of embryo service dress incorporating pleats on the skirt pockets, and a pair of expanding pleats set into the chest of the artillery pattern 5-button undress frock worn by the seated Corporal.

Edited 20 August , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

Large mounted card of an Royal Field Artillery (RFA cloth titles). c1903 Nice to see the Mills bandolier and jaunty pill box cap! 

 

Edited 21 August , 2019 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

On 21/08/2019 at 10:41, Toby Brayley said:

Large mounted card of an Royal Field Artillery (RFA cloth titles). c1903 Nice to see the Mills bandolier and jaunty pill box cap! 

 

 

 

Another evocative photo for your collection.  He is a qualified farrier and his pill box cap is almost certainly a private purchase as it is child’s size.  It’s always amused me that British soldiers (particularly, but not exclusively regulars) have such a long history of reducing the size of their issue caps.  In more recent times this has been the beret, but in Queen Victoria’s era it was the pill box cap and, especially, the glengarry when it was worn by the whole line.  This reduction was sometimes taken to a ridiculous degree, and despite inspection at the guardroom before walking-out, soldiers got away with it. 

Edited 22 August , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

15 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

soldiers got away with it. 

 

Thank you, it does look ridiculous. By chance on the same day I also acquired this chap, a 7th Dragoon Guard with a gravity defying Pill Box cap! 

 

Although somewhat off topic, it is a great unsent postcard.  Since the untimely and unnecessary closure of the VWF, I have no where to share him!  

 

 

Edited 21 August , 2019 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

Thank you, it does look ridiculous. By chance on the same day I also acquired this chap, a 7th Dragoon Guard with a gravity defying Pill Box cap! 

 

Although somewhat off topic, it is a great unsent postcard.  Since the untimely and unnecessary closure of the VWF, I have no where to share him!  

 

 

 

 

Yes, and what a super view of his scarlet frock (aka ‘jumper’ in the cavalry).

I can only echo your lament regarding VWF, it has really upset me.

Edited 21 August , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

16 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

I can only echo your lament regarding VWF, it has really upset me.

 

Such a great shame to lose the best resource out there. 

 

A new arrival. This was a very cheap purchase as it was totally over exposed, with a bit of tweaking lots of details are revealed.  Two men of the 1st Btn Wiltshire Regiment; Wiltshire Cap badges are evident on their Brodricks and the WILTS cloth title is visible.  

 

Lots of 1888 Equipment and a P1888 bayonet can be made out in the bed space. PC postmarked 1904.

 

 

 

 

 

[Muerrisch]

I think I see two varieties of shoulder strap: corded and removable?

[Toby Brayley]

2 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

I think I see two varieties of shoulder strap: corded and removable?

 

certainly is, the cord was introduced in July 1903. I would say our man with the removable straps has the first pattern, pre February 1902 , with the larger collar. As this thread has demonstrated perfectly, a mix of S.D types in use is not uncommon and would make a great study on its own!  

Edited 22 August , 2019 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

Such a great shame to lose the best resource out there. 

 

A new arrival. This was a very cheap purchase as it was totally over exposed, with a bit of tweaking lots of details are revealed.  Two men of the 1st Btn Wiltshire Regiment; Wiltshire Cap badges are evident on their Brodricks and the WILTS cloth title is visible.  

 

Lots of 1888 Equipment and a P1888 bayonet can be made out in the bed space. PC postmarked 1904.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

An especially evocative image for me as my paternal great uncle enlisted at Le Marchant Barracks, Devizes in June 1914, so perhaps around 10-years later.

I think the photo might be earlier than 1904, as in that year the 1st Battalion were at Rawalpindi and the 2nd Battalion at Bordon.  Presumably they had swopped Home and Overseas not long before.

Edited 22 August , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

 

32 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

2nd Battalion at Bordon. 

 

Ahh well it is postmarked Bordon, I suspect on closer inspection that it almost certainly a 2 and not a 1. so these chaps are 2nd Btn.

 

 

 

Edited 22 August , 2019 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

Yes I can just about make out that it’s a figure 2.  The following might be of interest:

 

“It was decided that the camps at Longmoor would be named after successful battles and locations from the Boer War. The officers' accommodations were named after Seven Years War commanders, Amherst and Wolfe.  Meanwhile, the barracks at Bordon were to be named after successful battles and locations from the North American campaign, during the Seven Years' War against France. The first two camps were thus named St Lucia and Quebec.  Having just returned from the Boer War, the first occupants of Quebec barracks at Bordon Camp were the Somersetshire Light Infantry in April 1903. In June, they were joined at Bordon by the 2nd Battalion Devonshire Regiment. Both set a precedent for the site by marching from Bentley railway station, headed by a marching band.

 In May 1903, the 1st Battalion of the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders and the 2nd Battalion of the Wiltshire Regiment were the first to occupy Longmoor camp. However it was built on boggy ground and the troops immediately began to complain of problems and the medical officers of ill health. A decision was immediately made by the War Department to move 68 of the Longmoor huts to the Bordon camp site, between 4 miles (6.4 km) and 6 miles (9.7 km) away.

The movement of the huts was completed in May 1905.  This move created Guadeloupe and Martinique Barracks on the west side of the A325, enabling the four barracks of Bordon to house a complete infantry brigade.”

 

Edited 22 August , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

Thank you, it is most interesting to see Bordon as it once was, I pass through it frequently and since the Army left it is a shell of its former self.  

[FROGSMILE]

14 minutes ago, Toby Brayley said:

Thank you, it is most interesting to see Bordon as it once was, I pass through it frequently and since the Army left it is a shell of its former self.  

 

It would be interesting to know which of the infantry barracks there the 2nd Wilts moved into.  Apparently three of five commanding officers’ houses, all built to the same design, have survived.  One in particular is well preserved.  The most easily accessible is now the ‘Woodlands Inn’ on Lindford Road.

Edited 22 August , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[GWF1967]

"The Band of His Majesty's Irish Guards".  1905. Toronto.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Band_of_the_Irish_Guards 

 

42 Men named, including Ivo Richard Vesey; 5th Viscount De Visci. The majority have surviving service papers, 12 served in the Great War.  

 Photograph is 8 x 15" not including mount and frame, too big to scan unfortunately.  

 

Photo 2. Shows Pte. James Turner. Q.S.A./ K.S.A.(Relief of Ladysmith + Cape Colony clasps)  L.S.G.C./ Khedive Star.    Enl. 1883. K.R.R.C. (former Militia service).  Irish Guards.961. 5th Good Conduct Badge 14/5/1904.  Dich.24/11/06.

 

Photo 3. Could someone explain the stripes on the left arm of the drummer please?

 

[Muerrisch]

Good conduct. At least 16 years of it. Foot Guards drummers' GC badges are positioned point down [uniquely] to contrast with the lace.

Whoops! I see 5 GCBs on the other man. 23 years if memory serves.

Edited 22 August , 2019 by Muerrisch
addendum

[Pat Atkins]

On 20/08/2019 at 13:18, Toby Brayley said:

Another example of the Geneva Cross being worn by non RAMC personnel (as per discussion way back in post #209). Once again it is a Volunteer Artillery unit.  Unsent postcard c1906. 

 

some nice detailing here.  Perhaps they are the Medical staff for their summer camp or similar. 

Nice photograph. Chap in khaki on our right - is that a badge on his upper left arm? And if so, what? Might be a blip on the original image, I suppose.

[GWF1967]

1 hour ago, Muerrisch said:

  Good conduct. At least 16 years of it. Foot Guards drummers' GC badges are positioned point down [uniquely] to contrast with the lace.

 

 Many thanks. Good to know.

 

Whoops! I see 5 GCBs on the other man. 23 years if memory serves.

Awarded after 21 years (1883 - 1904) according to his Service Records, he applied to extend his service the same year.

[FROGSMILE]

9 hours ago, Pat Atkins said:

Nice photograph. Chap in khaki on our right - is that a badge on his upper left arm? And if so, what? Might be a blip on the original image, I suppose.

 

Yes, there is a badge on his upper right arm.  Given its position and his immediate company in the photo it seems likely to me that it’s another Red Cross badge.

[FROGSMILE]

10 hours ago, GWF1967 said:

"The Band of His Majesty's Irish Guards".  1905. Toronto.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Band_of_the_Irish_Guards 

 

42 Men named, including Ivo Richard Vesey; 5th Viscount De Visci. The majority have surviving service papers, 12 served in the Great War.  

 Photograph is 8 x 15" not including mount and frame, too big to scan unfortunately.  

 

Photo 2. Shows Pte. James Turner. Q.S.A./ K.S.A.(Relief of Ladysmith + Cape Colony clasps)  L.S.G.C./ Khedive Star.    Enl. 1883. K.R.R.C. (former Militia service).  Irish Guards.961. 5th Good Conduct Badge 14/5/1904.  Dich.24/11/06.

 

Photo 3. Could someone explain the stripes on the left arm of the drummer please?

 

 

 

 

 

Quite a famous photo of the inaugural band tour.  The regiment not long formed so of course the majority of the men had transferred in from other regimental bands, some after long service.

The entire band wearing round forage caps seemingly with gold lace bands, somewhat surprised me, as the caps were being replaced by a new pattern at that time and gold lace bands had traditionally been the exclusive preserve of Foot Guards SNCOs, with just the regimental staff grade SNCOs wearing the cap with peak.  I’d be interested to see if fellow forum members have photos of other Foot Guards bands in the same headdress, or whether this was just an expedient measure by the Irish Guards band at the time of their first overseas tour.

 

Edited 23 August , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Pat Atkins]

Re the Red Cross badges, etc. I noticed the chap's right arm badge, thanks, though couldn't make out a red cross - what about on the other arm, however, Frogsmile? I'm less confident now than I was previously that it it's a badge, I have to say. Looks awfully similar in colour to the sleeve itself, now...

[FROGSMILE]

6 minutes ago, Pat Atkins said:

Re the Red Cross badges, etc. I noticed the chap's right arm badge, thanks, though couldn't make out a red cross - what about on the other arm, however, Frogsmile? I'm less confident now than I was previously that it it's a badge, I have to say. Looks awfully similar in colour to the sleeve itself, now...

 

When I enlarge the photo there’s definitely a badge on his right arm, Pat, although I cannot discern if it’s definitively a Red Cross.  The other men have the Red Cross on right arms only, and in the same position on their sleeves, so I’m just suggesting that for it to be the same badge (but on a different jacket) seems the most likely situation that we see here.

Edited 23 August , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Pat Atkins]

Seems likely, I agree. Thanks, Frogsmile.