Pre-War Cloth Shoulder Titles, Rank and Insignia photos.

[Toby Brayley]

Glass slide, TF Norfolks, nice array of insignia here...and a

beard! 

 

 

 

 

Edited 9 July , 2019 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

Super picture of a TF Instructor of Musketry with his unique 4-bars and combined crossed rifles with (early pattern) conjoined crown. I wonder how the colour sergeant got away with his beard given that he’s not wearing pioneers crossed axes.  Excused shaving via a skin condition presumably.

[Toby Brayley]

18 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Super picture of a TF Instructor of Musketry with his unique 4-bars and combined crossed rifles with (early pattern) conjoined crown. 

 

I thought you might like that! The sole reason I purchase the original glass plate. 

 

Latest acquisition crossed swords. Given the location and the dark collar (rather than white of the NSY) I am going with West Somerset Yeomanry for this chap. 

Edited 10 July , 2019 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

It seems that neither is the case, Toby, according to our mutual friend at uniformology.com, by whose courtesy the images are enclosed.  I wonder if it’s an adjacent County.  Apart from collar and cuff buttons the North Somerset Yeomanry is the closest in appearance and the WSY had very distinctive, jam-pot cuffs.  Perhaps there was a pattern change for NSY.

 

Edited 10 July , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

Thank you, i was torn between the two. Perhaps  a local Troop Variation of the NSY as only a few records survive and there was Troop variation in the early uniforms. Certianly very close to the NSY. The location and style is surely more than coincidence? 

 

Regards 

Toby 

Edited 10 July , 2019 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

10 minutes ago, Toby Brayley said:

Thank you, i was torn between the two. Perhaps  a local Troop Variation of the NSY as only a few records survive and there was Troop variation in the early uniforms. Certianly very close to the NSY. The location and style is surely more than coincidence? 

 

Regards 

Toby 

 

Yes, I agree, it seems most likely to be a Troop variation of the NSY.  I’ve no doubt that Bruce will be interested to see the photo.

Edited 10 July , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Dave1418]

On 09/07/2019 at 18:56, FROGSMILE said:

Super picture of a TF Instructor of Musketry with his unique 4-bars and combined crossed rifles with (early pattern) conjoined crown. I wonder how the colour sergeant got away with his beard given that he’s not wearing pioneers crossed axes.  Excused shaving via a skin condition presumably.

Hi,

I'm not sure he has a beard, there is a substantial moustache going on but looking at the others in the image it may just be the shadow when the picture was taken as its similar to the chap in the centre. 

[Muerrisch]

4 hours ago, Dave1418 said:

Hi,

I'm not sure he has a beard, there is a substantial moustache going on but looking at the others in the image it may just be the shadow when the picture was taken as its similar to the chap in the centre. 

 

The Instructor of musketry is of course a permanent staff regular soldier.

[FROGSMILE]

8 hours ago, Dave1418 said:

Hi,

I'm not sure he has a beard, there is a substantial moustache going on but looking at the others in the image it may just be the shadow when the picture was taken as its similar to the chap in the centre. 

 

Having spent almost 40-years around British soldiers in uniform, including the pioneer sergeant of infantry battalions, I am fairly confident that the TF Colour Sergeant at far left in the photo has a beard, Dave.  It’s not just the admittedly strange black ring around his lower face, but the nature of what seems a distinctly hairy chin.  That said, it’s not impossible that someone has done a recent photo-shop job on the image, although that seems unlikely to me.  Simple shadows in the photo don’t seem an adequate explanation given the extent of the masking of the lower face.

Edited 11 July , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Derek Black]

14 hours ago, Dave1418 said:

Hi,

I'm not sure he has a beard, there is a substantial moustache going on but looking at the others in the image it may just be the shadow when the picture was taken as its similar to the chap in the centre. 

I agree Dave, if that's any consolation?

 

Cheers,
Derek.

[FROGSMILE]

16 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

 

The Instructor of musketry is of course a permanent staff regular soldier.

 

Looking at the man far left again, does that seem to you to be a star above his 3-stripes?  I think I’ve probably mistaken an efficiency star for a crown, thus making him a sergeant.

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, Derek Black said:

I agree Dave, if that's any consolation?

 

Cheers,
Derek.

 

I agree that he’s clean shaven on the sides, as with the other men.  It’s just the chin below the lower lip that seems difficult to answer away.  It made me think of a Van-Dyke, albeit it does seem an odd style for a SNCO to have at that time, even for an auxiliary.

Edited 12 July , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

I'd agree it's not a full beard or even a large beard but certainly unusual. The image is from a glass negative, that I have photographed on a light box and reversed, certianly no Photoshoping or contemporary altering. I would also agree its a Prof Star rather than a crown on the chap on the left making him a Sjt. 

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

I'd agree it's not a full beard or even a large beard but certainly unusual. The image is from a glass negative, that I have photographed on a light box and reversed, certianly no Photoshoping or contemporary altering. I would also agree its a Prof Star rather than a crown on the chap on the left making him a Sjt. 

 

Thanks, Toby, the hirsute look is certainly a conundrum.

[Muerrisch]

He might simply be the pioneer sergeant without appointment  badge .......as we know, the auxilliary arms played fast and loose. As witness here the "incorrect" wearing of crown above proficiency, rather than below.

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

He might simply be the pioneer sergeant without appointment  badge .......as we know, the auxilliary arms played fast and loose. As witness here the "incorrect" wearing of crown above proficiency, rather than below.

 

Yes, I did wonder if that might be the case.  There seem to have been a number of units that struggled with the idea of putting the proficiency star ‘above’ the symbol of the Sovereign, as you have pointed out before.

[Toby Brayley]

We have discussed "Arm of Service" piped shoulder straps many times. I recently was able to handle a sealed pattern of the Army Pay Department . Officers (obviously, being APD) Great Coat Strap. Interesting late SP of June 1910 and declared obsolete in February 1920. 

Edited 15 July , 2019 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

Very interesting Toby, thanks for posting it.

[Toby Brayley]

To complement the above, sealed patterns of the detachable shoulder straps for the Corps of Military Police (Military Mounted Police and Military Foot Police).  A bit of an oddity as they are straps for the officers Great Coat. At this stage the Officers of the Military Police retained their parent unit insignia and uniform. They appear in the officers dress regs but on their own!  It was not until 1914 the the NCOs of the Military Police adopted the Service Dress. 

 

  

 

[Toby Brayley]

Very chuffed to finally add a 4th VB Hants title to my collection. 

 

[Toby Brayley]

I also picked up what I believe is an uncut West Riding title. Note the distinct G, the same as in the contemporary picture.  The font size is also correct. 

 

Edited 24 July , 2019 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

Superb condition ST and a great photo to match, Toby.  Thanks for posting.

[Jools mckenna]

Hello, could anyone tell me what the 2 men, sitting down in the middle, trouser's mean? Some sort of Calvary or Yeomanry? 

[58 Div Mule]

11 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

I also picked up what I believe is an uncut West Riding title. Note the distinct G, the same as in the contemporary picture.  The font size is also correct. 

 

Great photo. At first I thought it was a large horse but looking at the rifle I realise it's a short soldier!

 

58 DM.

[Toby Brayley]

Yes, he is not much taller than the SMLE! 

 

The rifle "clip" is like nothing I have ever seen before! 

Edited 25 July , 2019 by Toby Brayley