Pre-War Cloth Shoulder Titles, Rank and Insignia photos.

[Muerrisch]

Strictly speaking no unit was established for lance corporals or lance-sergeants, the various Army Orders merely changing the maximum number allowed to be appointed and paid as such in any one company/ unit. We know that lance appointments were a means of filling duty holes on the cheap.

In the group we see a lance-corporal. There may well be some lance-sergeants, but on balance I think there would be a few substantive sergeants in such a group. We may be looking at unit custom, or merely a shortage of belts?

 

We shall never know.

[FROGSMILE]

25 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Strictly speaking no unit was established for lance corporals or lance-sergeants, the various Army Orders merely changing the maximum number allowed to be appointed and paid as such in any one company/ unit. We know that lance appointments were a means of filling duty holes on the cheap.

In the group we see a lance-corporal. There may well be some lance-sergeants, but on balance I think there would be a few substantive sergeants in such a group. We may be looking at unit custom, or merely a shortage of belts?

 

We shall never know.

 

Yes, I realise that I used the wrong terminology, only ‘paid’ Lance ranks were established, in the sense there was a financial limit imposed on commanding officers limiting there number.  What I meant, is that Lance ranks were an expedient tool for the internal economy of regular units.  Therefore I’m unsure if there was a ‘need’ in VB/TF units to justify them, I suspect not?

Edited 23 September , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

8 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

Yes, I realise that I used the wrong terminology, only ‘paid’ Lance ranks were established, in the sense there was a financial limit imposed on commanding officers limiting there number.  What I meant, is that Lance ranks were an expedient tool for the internal economy of regular units.  Therefore I’m unsure if there was a ‘need’ in VB/TF units?to justify them, I suspect not?

 

I have the same reservation. I can see the sense in appointing lance corporals, only. That is the time-honoured "you are not one of the lads now" and the probationary nature to see if a young man could fill a full rank. The same justification would not fit a lance-sergeant.

[Toby Brayley]

Well I am glad the image generated some discussion! It is the first time I recall seeing the volunteer "piped" drummer style tunic, I note how even the Volunteer cuff knots are in are the same crowned braid. 

 

Here is another unusual postcard that I picked up recently of a "cadet" shoot.  Note the ASM instructing the 2 lads on the Lee Metfords, judging by the size of the cases they have been firing .22 or smaller caliber rounds. 

 

 

Edited 25 September , 2019 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

Yes it was common for VB drummers wearing drummers tunics to have the iconic Austrian knots repeated in drummers lace.  

 

It’s always interesting to see photos with cadets, there were many cadet units sponsored by line regiment TF battalions at that time and it was something of a high water mark for the cadet movement as a whole.

Edited 3 October , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[GWF1967]

Hi,

 I purchased these from a car boot sale at the weekend. I found the dog tag in a small box, the seller told me it came with the other badges.

The tag is marked to " 200859.WILKINSON.G. C.E.  4 OXF & BUC".    Pte. George Wilkinson 200895, 4th O.B.L.I. -  later served as 220287 Royal Berks and 155082. M.G.C. 

 Do these items belong together, or is the cloth title later please?

 

[FROGSMILE]

It is a WW1 pattern woven worsted thread shoulder title, so probably relates to his time serving with the Royal Berkshire Regiment.

Edited 24 September , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[GWF1967]

44 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

It is a WW1 pattern woven worsted thread shoulder title, so probably relates to his time serving with the Royal Berkshire Regiment.

Many thanks FROGSMILE. 

 Cheaper than chips!  

[Toby Brayley]

Unsent postcard, taken in Chesterfield. TF ASC & TF Sherwood Foresters Drummer and Bandsman.  Interesting 7 button pocketed ASC and NCOS 7 button Froc,k with gold braid on collar and shoulder straps, worn with girdle belt.  I don't think I have ever seen the ASC white backed efficiency star.  An unusual group perhaps some family connection. 

 

 

 

 

Edited 25 September , 2019 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

Utterly superb photo, with the new forage caps to boot.  I too had never before seen an ASC faced efficiency star, and I agree that there appears to be a strong family resemblance, perhaps with father and oldest son seated, and other siblings and perhaps cousins stood behind.

Edited 25 September , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

10th Hussars Corporal with the large scout badge, postcard sent in April 1914. 

[Muerrisch]

22 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Utterly superb photo, with the new forage caps to boot.  I too had never before seen an ASC faced efficiency star, and I agree that there appears to be a strong family resemblance, perhaps with father and oldest son seated, and other siblings and perhaps cousins stood behind.

 

TF Regs 1910 are a little obscure on the treatment of efficiency stars, but definitive on rankings. Rank chevrons were to be silver on facing, ie on white, and this appears to be correct in the portrait. As for various badges such as efficiency, I think [oddly enough] they were to be facing colour on body cloth, ie white on dark blue.

If I find the regulation difficult, the ever-independent TF units could drive a cart and horses through. Either way, it looks better for chevron and star to be "in step"

[Muerrisch]

On 23/09/2019 at 20:07, FROGSMILE said:

 

The white pouch belt was a uniform item of VBs (and previously VRC) specifically in lieu of a scarlet worsted sash, which at that time was a privilege of regular infantry sergeants only.  It’s odd that only the colour sergeant is wearing it.

The musketry sergeant is not serving with a regular unit, so presumably that’s why he’s without the sash he would have worn with his parent regular unit.

I agree that this seems likely to be the officers and NCOs of a single sub-unit.

I have had a look at relevant Volunteer and TF Regs. VF Regs are specific: scarlet sashes [as you say] are not to be worn. I cannot see a specific about the pouch beltbut did not look very hard.

Then, "just like that" TF  Regs 1910 specify that they are to be worn.

Clearly it was a matter of some importance to be specifically laid down, as opposed to custom and practice.

[Toby Brayley]

On the subject of VF Pouch belts I picked up this chap today, VB Sjt, Hampshire Regt. 

 

 

I assume he was in one of the Hants M.I Coys during the 2nd ABW. 

 

 

He could even be the owner of my Tunic, wishful thinking I know!

 

 

[Muerrisch]

43 minutes ago, Toby Brayley said:

10th Hussars Corporal with the large scout badge, postcard sent in April 1914. 

Do my eyes decieve me or are these ball buttons?

[Toby Brayley]

Just now, Muerrisch said:

Do my eyes decieve me or are these ball buttons?

 

They are indeed, the XRH frequently wore them on SD. 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Muerrisch said:

I have had a look at relevant Volunteer and TF Regs. VF Regs are specific: scarlet sashes [as you say] are not to be worn. I cannot see a specific about the pouch beltbut did not look very hard.

Then, "just like that" TF  Regs 1910 specify that they are to be worn.

Clearly it was a matter of some importance to be specifically laid down, as opposed to custom and practice.

 

Thank you for the confirmation, the 1910 reference is interesting and doubtless (in my opinion) the result of some degree of confusion after the formation of the Territorial Force just 2-years before.  Whereas VBs had generally retained their special rifles traditions, the TF units did not always do so.  By WW1 few units still retained the sergeants pouch belts and buglers and rifles pattern colour sergeant arm badges. 

Edited 26 September , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Toby Brayley said:

On the subject of VF Pouch belts I picked up this chap today, VB Sjt, Hampshire Regt. 

 

 

 

I assume he was in one of the Hants M.I Coys during the 2nd ABW. 

 

 

 

He could even be the owner of my Tunic, wishful thinking I know!

 

 

 

 

 

Yet more superb photos of historical significance in the study of uniform, thank you for posting them. 

[GWF1967]

"Telephony Course 1908"  The sign reads " Ordnance College. Officers Entrance. Entrance for Others, Down the Steps to Basement Doors".

Brass and cloth Signaller / Gun Layer badges on show. Boer War ribbons and R.H.A. buttons on the man left hand side of the middle row.  Cloth R.G.A. shoulder titles.

  Can anyone tell me what the badge is on the left arm, of the man right hand end of the middle row please.

He has two undetected crime stripes, a Musketry badge with crown above, then another badge above that, between crown and rank stripe.

[FROGSMILE]

17 minutes ago, GWF1967 said:

"Telephony Course 1908"  The sign reads " Ordnance College. Officers Entrance. Entrance for Others, Down the Steps to Basement Doors".

Brass and cloth Signaller / Gun Layer badges on show. Boer War ribbons and R.H.A. buttons on the man left hand side of the middle row.  Cloth R.G.A. shoulder titles.

  Can anyone tell me what the badge is on the left arm, of the man right hand end of the middle row please.

He has two undetected crime stripes, a Musketry badge with crown above, then another badge above that, between crown and rank stripe.

 

 

 

I’m fairly sure that it’s a gun ‘layer’ badge,  also worn by the man in front of him and the man behind him.

Edited 28 September , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[GWF1967]

18 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

I’m fairly sure that it’s a gun ‘layer’ badge,  also worn by the man in front of him and the man behind him.

 

 

This is the chap in question!

[FROGSMILE]

5 hours ago, GWF1967 said:

This is the chap in question!

 

 

Ah yes I see now, I was mixed between ‘right’ as we looked, and ‘his’ right. Apologies.

 

The badge’s appearance is rather distorted, but I’d say it was gilding metal crossed signal flags.

Edited 28 September , 2019 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

Also being RA that will be a prize battery badge of crossed guns rather than rifles, any chance of a better shot? Looks like it's First Prize Battery of crossed guns and crown. 

 

 

Edited 28 September , 2019 by Toby Brayley

[Toby Brayley]

Also being RA that will be a prize battery badge of crossed guns rather than rifles, any chance of a better shot? Great pic. 

[Toby Brayley]

A recent bargain purchase.

1880s/1890s tunic of the West Somerset Yeomanry with original badges. Not the first time I have seen the Chevron in use instead of the Efficiency Star. 

 

 

 

Edited 28 September , 2019 by Toby Brayley