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Remembered Today:

Pre-War Cloth Shoulder Titles, Rank and Insignia photos.


Toby Brayley

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1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:


Glad to help Chris.  Before the Edward VII cypher was issued the Victorian version was used for the field service cap.  Both were without crown on the FSC and I believe were probably originally collar badges coopted into use for headdress.  Only the Edward VII badge was used on the Brodrick.

 

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Thank you again FROGSMILE, I have said it countless times, how superb this forum is with its wealth of knowledge , always learning new things!

 

Chris 

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3 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Uncannily I had just ordered your book after discovering it online, so it’s quite spooky to read your post here.  My hope now is that similar photos for the Army School of PT can be found (I know they exist), and also the Cavalry School (Netheravon, then Weedon), as they too exist but I’ve only ever seen two.  I imagine these latter would be much more difficult to track down because unlike the other two schools it was long ago dispersed.  However, they are just as rich with dress details as those of the SofM.

 

The ones that I'm trying to track down at the moment are those from Netheravon as we have very few that would have come across in 1994 when it closed. The only range we have, almost in full, is that from Hythe. I'll be spending some time with Toby having a look through it in more detail and we'll hopefully take a look at the older pictures too as I know we have them back to 1865 for the officers' courses and there are some glass plates which are potentially earlier.

 

All the best, and I hope you find value in the book,

 

Rich

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On 03/12/2019 at 13:37, Richard Fisher said:

 

The ones that I'm trying to track down at the moment are those from Netheravon as we have very few that would have come across in 1994 when it closed. The only range we have, almost in full, is that from Hythe. I'll be spending some time with Toby having a look through it in more detail and we'll hopefully take a look at the older pictures too as I know we have them back to 1865 for the officers' courses and there are some glass plates which are potentially earlier.

 

All the best, and I hope you find value in the book,

 

Rich


I have a few from my time in Netheravon, which is where I spent my entire service in the SASC.  Unfortunately there did not seem to be any system there to retain photographs centrally (i.e. Wing HQ), and each of the Weapons Divisions (Mortar, Anti-Tank and latterly MG and Reconaissance) was left to do its own thing.  I was forever poking about whenever the opportunity arose, but I never saw anything of historical note apart from the complete collection of officers service dress bronze cap badges from WW1 that was retained on the wall of the officers’ mess.  I know that that collection has survived, but there was no central collection of photographs.

 

 I was always fascinated by the connection of the wing with the old machine gun school and I took every chance I had to look into that.  Overall I noticed three factors that affected the retention of historical information:

 

1.  The first was the relationship between Netheravon and Warminster (previously Hythe), which I would describe as to a degree antipathetic.  Warminster ran very much by rote to a rigid extent and the weapon training lessons (that at one point began and ended by a whistle blast) were dealing with small arms use at section and platoon level.  Netheravon focussed upon battalion level, medium weapons and taught handling skills within the context of the all arms battle.  This meant that teaching by rote was inappropriate and all soldier and officer trainees were taught in an integrated manner how their weapon was used at the tactical level, including full battle procedure.  In this way I would describe the culture of the two wings as very different and connected in a virtually unbroken way with their forebears at the Machine Gun School and the Small Arms School.  Ne’er the twain would meet.

 

2.  The Netheravon wing (erstwhile school) comprised of small corrugated iron huts directly converted from the stables of the old cavalry school.  Even the headquarters and its satellite buildings were merely asbestos clad wooden huts largely unchanged since WW1.  As such, space was at a premium, so there was only the most essential systematic archiving taking place, which did not include photographs in the period between WW2 and its final closure.

 

3.  Most significantly of all, the school at Netheravon closed completely for a few years between the two World Wars.  It was only the scare leading up to WW2 that caused it to be reopened as a wing and I strongly suspect that when the old machine gun school there had been closed, all photographs that there were had been either dispersed, or possibly even destroyed.  As previously mentioned there was very little communication, or sense of comradeship between the then schools at Hythe and Netheravon.  They might just as well have been wearing different cap badges, as indeed they had been until 1929.  Netheravon always seemed to be under threat of closure, especially during the periodic ‘basing’ reviews when each of the 3-Services had to declare what it would give up if pushed.  That situation led to what I would call a hand-to-mouth existence of running like a well oiled machine, but always with the anticipation of being closed at some point.  Sadly the closure occurred some years after I had moved on.

 

Regards,

 

FS

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Trumpeter, with volunteer lozenge.  Cadets of the 2nd Lancashire Cadet Battalion (shoulder strap title reads 2 LCB). I have been unable to find out much about the unit but it obviously had an Royal Engineers affiliation. 

 

716337703_LancashireVolEngineers..jpg.220600361f90c73114d6ab0115e12b28.jpg

 

 

 

 

Edited by Toby Brayley
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7 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

Trumpeter, with volunteer lozenge.  Cadets of the 2nd Lancashire Cadet Battalion (shoulder strap title reads 2 LCB). I have been unable to find out much about the unit but it obviously had an Royal Engineers affiliation. 

 

 


Toby, I think that these might be cadets of the Manchester and Salford Schools RE Cadet Corps, later Junior Div OTC, but I’m not 100% sure.

 

There’s an interesting piece on how the volunteer Cadet Corps transitioned to OTC division’s (senior and junior), here: http://www.comec.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/occasional_paper_no_4_no_crop.pdf

Edited by FROGSMILE
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On 11/12/2019 at 16:52, FROGSMILE said:


Toby, I think that these might be cadets of the Manchester and Salford Schools RE Cadet Corps, later Junior Div OTC, but I’m not 100% sure.

 

 

Thank you, how does that tie in with the Lcb title?  It is a real nightmare trying to ID these units of the era. 

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23 minutes ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

Thank you, how does that tie in with the Lcb title?  It is a real nightmare trying to ID these units of the era. 


I’m still endeavouring to find out, but a key point is that the cadet battalions of that time were attached to and aligned with the Volunteer Movement until 1908 (lozenge badge refers), and were then attached to the Territorial Force.  As your photo is clearly before 1908, then I think that one of Ray Westlake’s books will hold the answer.  I know that he lists cadet units in them. 

Edited by FROGSMILE
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I have recently been on a placement at the National Army Museum's reserve collection, Identifying and enhancing captions on some of their early frocks and tunics. I  also had the  opportunity to work on their Military Police sealed patterns (of particular interest to me) and there were some "missing links" from our collection, including the Standard Pattern of the MP Tartan Frock. It finally confirms my suspicions 100% that Military Police (MMP and MFP) had blue backed, not red, insignia in the pre war era. 

I thought that frequent perusers of this thread would find this 1914 Military Police Tn Frock with SP insignia of interest, particularly the latter ammendment of the Sjt Majors crown to the WO1 and WO2 badges. 

 

IMG_20191216_111740.jpg.a89516e724b57886590468815d0f8760.jpg

 

 

IMG_20191216_111830.jpg.42595bab62f67611d8b3b3127b35090e.jpg

 

 

 

 IMG_20191216_112100.jpg.fb9a1c4e77c3ba499b2a85a3f0d38fc4.jpg

 

SSM (MMP) Colour Sjt (MFP) 

IMG_20191216_111851.jpg.bbffacc35ffb60c0d1b7b08925385c76.jpg

 

Edited by Toby Brayley
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Thank you so much for posting these images Toby.  Very interesting and you might imagine how envious I am of your placement.  I can only hope that one day a book will be published, and/or website illustrated with a proper, comprehensive study of all the Army’s Victorian and Edwardian era undress uniforms that have been entirely neglected in favour of full dress.  I know of no such information publicly accessible as things stand and I applaud you for shining a light into some very dark corners.  What you are doing is absolutely ground breaking.  
 

P.S.  While you are on placement might I ask you please to keep an eye out for any information that you can find regarding the Corps of Armourer Sergeants 1855-1897.  That Corps had no uniform of its own, but there is evidence that some undress items, including very short-lived insignia were worn by a few men at the corps depot (RSAF Enfield and then RSAF Birmingham).  Such information is akin to the holy grail.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Toby,

Thank you. Between 1865 and 1875 when rank chevrons of the regular army were reduced in size and simplified, they were gradually forced to comply with the new rule that they were not to be on facing colour. Naturally the cavalry held out longest, and naturally the Household Troops held out for ever, both in colour and style. The rule extended to just about every badge on full dress and frock, including "trade" badges.

 

Thus we should expect to see scarlet on scarlet, and dark blue on dark blue. Of course, it being a uniform army, for there to be exceptions. However, the rule should have applied for as long as full dress was authorized, according to my notes from the RACD ledgers.

 

Incidentally, any profound study of undress [and good luck to anyone attempting it: that way madness lies] needs to have full sight of the RACD ledgers, held at Kew.

 

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Thank you both. The mystery/myth surrounding the Military Police insignia stems from the Corps adding scarlet backed insignia to our Museum items sometime in the 1970s for Tattoos and the like. This is also  the origins of the MP cap badge and helmet plate myths.  Pre Great War the MP had blue backed insignia but the MPSC had scarlet-backed, not the Military Police, as one would assume with the red cap connections and, of course, the later style insignia. The MPSC shared the same uniform and SPs as the MP, the sealed patterns etc illustrate both colours of backed insignia , as seen here. 

 

IMG_20191205_105228.jpg.6146fb96c9539e1a47f769b433dfbe63.jpg

 

IMG_20191205_174002.jpg.bdc4996f4cbaf57945ae4dc89d7a860a.jpg

Edited by Toby Brayley
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It’s interesting to see the cuff embellishment, which is that of dragoons, and represents an historical thread or nod towards the Staff Corps of Cavalry that preceded (albeit with broken service) the Military Mounted Police, and who were dressed as dragoons.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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20 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

It’s interesting to see the cuff embellishment, which is that of dragoons, and represents an historical thread or nod towards the Staff Corps of Cavalry that preceded (albeit with broken service) the Military Mounted Police, and who were dressed as dragoons.

 

Indeed, even the MFP and MPSC still retained the Dragoons style.

Edited by Toby Brayley
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"The Enfield Shooting Boys"    Some nice detail of the AOC  cloth STs and Mk1 SMLEs.  Note the NCO centre with multiple pairs of badly placed  crossed rifles.  A one off posed for a photo I thought,  he also turned up (named) in another photograph in a friends collection with the same badges! 

 

921353900_ASCShootingEnfieldBoys.jpg.178d5a032ae470575737bd4099eead43.jpg

 

 

Courtesy of Sean Featherstone. 

43879635_10156147198998051_7583524768435929088_o.jpg.c310a0cdf4180d87c9c9f5281bb257ad.jpg

 

 

 

Edited by Toby Brayley
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Tipping their caps back to better expose their faces seems a common thing for TF having their photo taken at annual Summer training camp.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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2 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

Indeed, even the MFP and MPSC still retained the Dragoons style.


Apparently a short form moniker for their aforesaid predecessors was the Staff Dragoons.

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The ASC staff sergeant with three crossed rifles badges ............... this might just be a result of a shortage of the correct versions .........

the lower badge, left, could be a standard "marksman" [ASC were trained shots, given their role as guardians of the Field Ambulances etc]. He could also be the "best in company [or equivalent] prize man suffering a shortage of the star above the rifles. Finally, if his company were to be best in unit, he would qualify for right sleeve rifles and crown.

Far-fetched I know, but the reasons behind puzzles in old photos are what keep me going!

 

see 976 below

Edited by Muerrisch
very wrong and misleading, see my notes below of this evening
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11 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

............ this might just be a result of a shortage of the correct versions .........

 

Far-fetched I know, but the reasons behind puzzles in old photos are what keep me going!

 

I am in total agreement with you. I wonder if 110 years ago he had any idea that his picture would still be of interest to a few individuals out there!  

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16 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

Saddos, 

 

That was the word I was looking for! 

 

New arrival this morning. 2nd Btn Leicestershire Regiment, early on in that transitional period, Slade Wallace in drill order, leather leggings and a great shot of the early drab Service Dress. It is interesting to note that a regular battalion still has the Lee Metford Mk1 or Mk1*, their late use seems to crop up more in Edwardian images now my eyes are trained to them.   

 

823630146_LeicesterSTs.jpg.2e54796d0e7cbb968486fb9f7b566b52.jpg

Edited by Toby Brayley
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Super photo, Toby, thank you for posting it.  Several of those posing are exceedingly young.  The two front right look as if they might’ve just formally transitioned from ‘Boy’ to young soldier on the company roll.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Aren’t the “Enfield Shooting Boys“ AOC rather than ASC?

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31 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Aren’t the “Enfield Shooting Boys“ AOC rather than ASC?

 

Yes very much so, a typo on my part now amended. 

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2 minutes ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

Yes very much so, a typo on my part now amended. 


It’s an interesting photo I think because it reminds us that even AOC, who might reasonably expect to be mainly out of harm’s way at their stores depots, still fired an annual application shoot for which they could win prizes.

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