Pre-War Cloth Shoulder Titles, Rank and Insignia photos.

[FROGSMILE]

I concur with the observations of you both.  There seems little doubt that he’s a volunteer.

[58 Div Mule]

What a great photo.

 

Could this tell us something about the reason young working class men joined the Volunteers?

 

Packed off from home for his annual chance of a "holiday", all expenses paid. Mum sent him off with the creature comforts of home.

 

Clearly not a regular!

 

58 DM.

[Peter35]

Staff Armourer-Serjeant from the Corps of Armourer Serjeants

 

Toby ….. and others,

 

Thank you for your thoughts. Unlike so many unfortunate others, I am in no danger (other than spilling my morning latte at a favourite café).

 

And thank you for posting the Armourer Sergeant CDV. It is indeed very rare.

 

I presume if there was any date, etc available you would have said so.

 

From my standard position of ignorance, I do wonder if the uniform proper (tunic and trousers) is a CoAS uniform, for the following reasons (some less substantive than others):

 

i)          The establishing 1858 RW prescribed:

 

             “neither the probationary armourers, the staff serjeant of armourers (only one staff serjeant was prescribed in the establishment (1^st)), nor the armourer serjeants,

              will be entitled to clothing (“while employed in the corps.” (6^th)). (6^th)       

 

              “An armourer serjeant while serving with a regiment, battalion, or corps ..... shall be entitled to the ….. clothing of a serjeant of such with a regiment, battalion, or 

              corps. (7^th).

 

              Everything I have seen in subsequent QRs, Clothing Regs, SOs, GOs, Regimental Histories etc reaffirms the RWs prohibition of a Corps uniform / clothing.

 

(For the record, in 1896 the CoAS, with other corps was absorbed into what became the Army Ordnance Corps. One of those other corps was the Armament Artificers of the Royal Artillery, which personnel were redesignated from the Corps of Ordnance Artificers following the latter’s dissolution in 1893 (only having been formed in 1882).)

 

ii)         A few articles in the Military Historical Bulletin either reference or describe (with accompanying image) the helmet plate. I have seen no reference to collar badges ….. or buttons.

 

            (Interestingly, having perused every issue of the JSAHR, I can’t recall any reference to any item of uniform).

 

iii)        I am aware of only two references to facings.

 

            Firstly, Carman’s MHS article (which I have remarked to Frogsmile, with the greatest respect to the author, is both a little difficult to follow and seemingly incorrect on a couple of points) references “new regulations” of 23rd March 1885 for the CoAS (unfortunately, with no further detail) notes:

 

            “facing of the corps will be white”.

 

            Secondly, Forbes, who is the only authority I’m aware of who has literally written more than a few lines on the CoAS, notes in his History of the Army Ordnance Services:

 

            “If attached to a regiment they wore its uniform, otherwise the ordinary line dress with white facings.”

 

 

 

I do wonder whether the Staff Armourer Sergeant is wearing a Line uniform.

 

The collar badges seem relatively clear. Is it possible to identify them with a Line Regiment?

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Peter35 said:

Staff Armourer-Serjeant from the Corps of Armourer Serjeants

 

Toby ….. and others,

 

Thank you for your thoughts. Unlike so many unfortunate others, I am in no danger (other than spilling my morning latte at a favourite café).

 

And thank you for posting the Armourer Sergeant CDV. It is indeed very rare.

 

I presume if there was any date, etc available you would have said so.

 

From my standard position of ignorance, I do wonder if the uniform proper (tunic and trousers) is a CoAS uniform, for the following reasons (some less substantive than others):

 

i)          The establishing 1858 RW prescribed:

 

             “neither the probationary armourers, the staff serjeant of armourers (only one staff serjeant was prescribed in the establishment (1^st)), nor the armourer serjeants,

              will be entitled to clothing (“while employed in the corps.” (6^th)). (6^th)       

 

              “An armourer serjeant while serving with a regiment, battalion, or corps ..... shall be entitled to the ….. clothing of a serjeant of such with a regiment, battalion, or 

              corps. (7^th).

 

              Everything I have seen in subsequent QRs, Clothing Regs, SOs, GOs, Regimental Histories etc reaffirms the RWs prohibition of a Corps uniform / clothing.

 

(For the record, in 1896 the CoAS, with other corps was absorbed into what became the Army Ordnance Corps. One of those other corps was the Armament Artificers of the Royal Artillery, which personnel were redesignated from the Corps of Ordnance Artificers following the latter’s dissolution in 1893 (only having been formed in 1882).)

 

ii)         A few articles in the Military Historical Bulletin either reference or describe (with accompanying image) the helmet plate. I have seen no reference to collar badges ….. or buttons.

 

            (Interestingly, having perused every issue of the JSAHR, I can’t recall any reference to any item of uniform).

 

iii)        I am aware of only two references to facings.

 

            Firstly, Carman’s MHS article (which I have remarked to Frogsmile, with the greatest respect to the author, is both a little difficult to follow and seemingly incorrect on a couple of points) references “new regulations” of 23rd March 1885 for the CoAS (unfortunately, with no further detail) notes:

 

            “facing of the corps will be white”.

 

            Secondly, Forbes, who is the only authority I’m aware of who has literally written more than a few lines on the CoAS, notes in his History of the Army Ordnance Services:

 

            “If attached to a regiment they wore its uniform, otherwise the ordinary line dress with white facings.”

 

 

 

I do wonder whether the Staff Armourer Sergeant is wearing a Line uniform.

 

The collar badges seem relatively clear. Is it possible to identify them with a Line Regiment?

Hello Peter,

 

It’s great to learn that all’s well with you and yours.

 

As you know I’m familiar that the CofAs were from the outset not entitled to any uniform beyond that of the regiment to which they were attached, whether it be cavalry, or infantry, and this is repeated most specifically in the clothing regulations issued, following Cardwell’s Reforms, in 1882.

 

You might recall that you have discoursed with me about written communications by various Armourer Sergeants who were serving in positions other than cavalry and infantry complaining about the lack of uniform provision.  We also know from our debating that the few CofA that there seems to have been on their depot’s staff (for the uninitiated, Enfield and then Birmingham) that their seems to have been no allocated uniform beyond plain blue, undress patrol frocks that they were permitted as staff sergeants generally. It seems that according to Carman and Forbes a full dress of some type (details conflicting) was eventually authorised.

 

The uniform that we see in the CDV cannot be that of an infantry battalion as it does not match in any respect those patterns issued on the home establishment or foreign service (largely India) for infantry regiments.  As well as the piping down the front overlapping edge not being white, as it would be for infantry (it is some other, indistinct colour, probably matching the cuffs), the precise style of trefoil cuff cord in gilt is also different to infantry (who in India did have a similar, but not identical trefoil for SNCOs on frocks used in lieu of tunics), and the collar is, unusually ‘framed’ completely, including top and bottom, with cord, rather than the usual infantry lace.  It also has 9-buttons as worn by all the support corps rather than the 7-buttons used consistently on infantry full dress tunics on the home establishment.

 

As for collar badges, these are plain Victorian crowns, as were stipulated for all regiments and corps that did not have an authorised ‘special device’ from around 1874 onwards.  This plain crown continued in use by those units until they eventually had agreed a special pattern of their own and so they are correct for the period depicted, whether worn by a few infantry regiments or corps like the ASC, among others.  The buttons are simple general service pattern and are also correct for that time.  
 

Finally, the CofA insignia, whether full dress as here, or undress, as in the most famous photo published in the MHS bulletin to illustrate Carman’s article, would not have been worn when serving with infantry or cavalry at regimental duty.  Instead the insignia of the unit that they supported was worn and, as you know, there is ample, incontrovertible evidence of this with numerous photos showing Armourer Sergeants wearing the same badges as their contemporaries within the units.  Ergo, the only time when it would have been appropriate to wear the rarely seen CofA insignia would have been when not serving with regiments, but when serving elsewhere, either at the corps depot, or some other post where no other uniform was available.  We (you and I) have speculated that this might have been at some armaments stores in various parts of the Empire, but as this is definitely a home service establishment tunic that we see in the CDV, then I think it most likely relates to the depot.  As the occasion when such dress for an Armourer Sergeant was required was very rare, I imagine that it could only be an event such as a Sovereign’s Jubilee, a Coronation, or as a much longer shot, a wedding. The uniform does not match cavalry, ASC, or AOC full dress in a number of respects either, so I can only reach the conclusion that it is the CofA full dress, mentioned by Forbes and Carman, that we have so long been seeking.  There isn’t really any other explanation after narrowing things down via elimination.

NB.  I do recall your mentioning to me that for a very brief period in 1896 the CofA went to the newly instituted second existence of the ASC, before moving to the AOC, whence they remained until 1941.

 

 

Edited 10 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Andrew Upton]

On ‎24‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 13:50, Toby Brayley said:

Although devoid of insignia, whilst on the subject, another Vol TF Engineer Tunic to 499 E J Taylor Wessex Division Royal Engineers. Although the Tunic was issued in July 1912, it still has Edward VII Buttons. Again it has white metal buttons, hooks and white worsted braid...

 

 

If you weren't already aware, the missing makers details for Taylor's jacket:

 

[Toby Brayley]

4 minutes ago, Andrew Upton said:

 

If you weren't already aware, the missing makers details for Taylor's jacket:

 

 

 

Brilliant, I did wonder who it might be, thank you very much! 

[Toby Brayley]

4 hours ago, Peter35 said:

Staff Armourer-Serjeant from the Corps of Armourer Serjeants

 

Toby ….. and others,

 

Thank you for your thoughts. Unlike so many unfortunate others, I am in no danger (other than spilling my morning latte at a favourite café).

 

 

 

3 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Hello Peter,

 

It’s great to learn that all’s well with you and yours.

 

 

 

Thank you Gents. There is not really anything else I can add, I would say with the Crown collar badges and unusual detailing that he is either in the unknown uniform of the CAS or perhaps the antecedents of the or the AOC, with scarlet facings.   Date wise it could be anything from c1880-1896.

 

 You will also notice that he does not have gold cord shoulder straps but cloth with what I think is  brass rather than embroidered shoulder title.

 

Regards

Toby

Edited 10 January , 2020 by Toby Brayley

[Peter35]

Thanks, Frogsmile.

 

Comprehensive as usual.

 

“I do recall your mentioning to me that for a very brief period in 1896 the CofA went to the newly instituted second existence of the ASC, before moving to the AOC, whence they remained until 1941.” :

 

1/4/1895          Transferred, Ordnance Store Corps, Armourer Section

1/4/1896          Army Ordnance Corps, Armourer Section

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Peter35 said:

Thanks, Frogsmile.

 

Comprehensive as usual.

 

“I do recall your mentioning to me that for a very brief period in 1896 the CofA went to the newly instituted second existence of the ASC, before moving to the AOC, whence they remained until 1941.” :

 

1/4/1895          Transferred, Ordnance Store Corps, Armourer Section

1/4/1896          Army Ordnance Corps, Armourer Section

Hello Peter, yes I see where I have become confused now, thank you.  I was thinking of the short-lived Corps of Army Staff Clerks, who went ASC and then AOC. 

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

 

Thank you Gents. There is not really anything else I can add, I would say with the Crown collar badges and unusual detailing that he is either in the unknown uniform of the CAS or perhaps the antecedents of the or the AOC, with scarlet facings.   Date wise it could be anything from c1880-1896.

 

 You will also notice that he does not have gold cord shoulder straps but cloth with what I think is  brass rather than embroidered shoulder title.

 

Regards

Toby

Hello Toby, yes I did consider the early AOC uniform argument, but not the OSC (i.e. antecedents, as you said).  Perhaps it is indeed the 1st class pattern uniform of the Ordnance Store Corps.  In that case the 9-button tunic, crown collar badges, GS buttons and, possibly, the trefoil cuff knot might make sense.  It would mean a blue tunic with scarlet facings.  Perhaps some research info the OSC uniform will corroborate matters.  If it is OSC uniform, then the wearing with it of CofA insignia is something previously unknown.  It would pitch the CDV very firmly into 1895 and make it a quite literal, snapshot in time.  The image remains very intriguing.  Perhaps you can find something to cross reference at the NAM.

Edited 10 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

Gentlemen I do not think for a moment that the facings can be scarlet. The white mentioned above I can just about believe ....... if  the "white" is a dull one and the fabric light-absorbing.

[FROGSMILE]

On 10/01/2020 at 15:43, Muerrisch said:

Gentlemen I do not think for a moment that the facings can be scarlet. The white mentioned above I can just about believe ....... if  the "white" is a dull one and the fabric light-absorbing.

Might they not be scarlet if the light is very good?  I’m leaning slightly more towards a blue tunic now given the 9-buttons and very un-infantry looking trefoil cuff (i.e. from a home service perspective).  We need to get more information about the OSC full dress.

 

For comparison, I enclose an image of an Armourer Quartermaster Sergeant of the AOC taken around 1900 and you can see the distinct similarity in the style of uniform just 5-years after the Corps of Armourers joined the Ordnance Store Corps.  This must surely constitute some circumstantial evidence that the Armourer Sergeants perhaps wore, just for a very brief period, their own cap badge with the OSC uniform, before one year later taking up the full insignia of the new AOC.  It would also explain why the CofA badges are so few in number in collections worldwide.  Only a very few men could have worn such an interim, ensemble uniform, as so many of them would have been at regimental duty and wearing the clothing and insignia issued to them by the regiments that they were supporting.  We know this from some group photographs taken in garrisons around the world, where they are still wearing infantry regimental insignia as late as 1896-97.

 

NB.  I cannot help but feel that this is potentially a Eureka moment.  I say this because we know that the CofA (and its directly employed predecessors before 1855) wore the uniform and insignia of the regiment that they supported since the inception of unit based armourers, and until joining the OSC/AOC in 1895-1896.  We also know that, once a part of the AOC, from 1896 on, they wore its uniform and insignia until 1941.  Ergo, it would seem that the discrete and short-lived CofA insignia can only have been worn for that brief interim whilst they were a part of the Ordnance Store Corps in 1895.  The photo that Toby has is, as far as I know, the only example showing the helmet pattern of the CofA insignia, hitherto only seen in Kipling and King's epic tome on headwear badges, actually in use. It had not been known until now, what manner of full dress uniform the CofA insignia had been worn with.  By any standard, this (Toby’s CDV) is a significant breakthrough.

 

Edited 11 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

RA Drummer, with Drummers badge worn on lower right! 

 

[Toby Brayley]

An unsent postcard of a 9th Lancers guard detail, Canterbury, c1910. There are a number of postcards and photographs from the era depicting various 9th Lancers guard details stood outside the same fence and sentry box, but all differ slightly.

 

The image shows how the contemporary film stock can affect how colours appear, as their Plastrons are actually blue with red facings and the girdle belts yellow and red.

There is a nice mix of trade and proficiency badges including; Trumpeter, Sword proficiency, crossed rifles and the 9th Lancers NCO arm badge.

 

A super smart era that is sadly long gone!

 

[Muerrisch]

RA Drummer?!

What!

 

I will have a look at the Pay Warrant but at first blush I can see no appointment as a drummer in the RA. [The RA band drummer should wear a band lyre].

[Toby Brayley]

42 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

RA Drummer?!

What!

 

I will have a look at the Pay Warrant but at first blush I can see no appointment as a drummer in the RA. [The RA band drummer should wear a band lyre].

 

Indeed, I thought you might like!   first time I have ever seen RA with the badge and worn on lower right. GC Chevron so a Regluar also! 

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

RA Drummer?!

What!

 

I will have a look at the Pay Warrant but at first blush I can see no appointment as a drummer in the RA. [The RA band drummer should wear a band lyre].

It’s been almost forgotten now, but from 1886 until 1984 there was a Royal Artillery Mounted Band, although like the line cavalry bands they had not had horses for many decades at the time of their disbandment.  As with the old Hussar bands, there had been as a central attraction within the band a lone Kettle Drummer and I suspect that might be who is wearing your drum badge.  The kettle drummer was a unique appointment within the Royal Artillery and almost like a mascot.  His tunic was the standard RA pattern and the band were not dressed as the Horse Artillery, but as per Field Artillery.

 

Edited 12 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

An unsent postcard of a 9th Lancers guard detail, Canterbury, c1910. There are a number of postcards and photographs from the era depicting various 9th Lancers guard details stood outside the same fence and sentry box, but all differ slightly.

 

The image shows how the contemporary film stock can affect how colours appear, as their Plastrons are actually blue with red facings and the girdle belts yellow and red.

There is a nice mix of trade and proficiency badges including; Trumpeter, Sword proficiency, crossed rifles and the 9th Lancers NCO arm badge.

 

A super smart era that is sadly long gone!

 

 

Toby, after examining the photo of the Quarter Guard, it’s possible I think that the plastron is not on show, but has been reversed.  It was normal practice in the Lancer Regiments to have the facing colour plastron on show when in review order and during guard-mount, but for general duties and routine activity, including patrolling, etc. the plastron was reversed in order to keep it clean, but also because it was then a rather more practical garment.  If the photo was taken on an impromptu occasion, and not for formal publication, I doubt that they would trouble to alter their tunics to ‘face out’.

Edited 12 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

20 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Toby, after examining the photo of the Quarter Guard, it’s possible I think that the plastron is not on show, but has been reversed.  It

 

Ohh yes good shout, had not thought of that, it's still interesting how the film stock has affected the colours as the scarlet collars are indistinguishable from the blue of the tunic. Also note the sloppy whitening work around the bad of the sentry box!! 

 

28 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

It’s been almost forgotten now, but from 1886 until 1984 there was a 

 

Thank you, now we need to see some more pictures! Were there any rank restrictions for that appoiment? 

 

Regards 

Toby 

Edited 12 January , 2020 by Toby Brayley

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

Ohh yes good shout, had not thought of that, it's still interesting how the film stock has affected the colours as the scarlet collars are indistinguishable from the blue of the tunic. Also note the sloppy whitening work around the bad of the sentry box!! 

 

 

Thank you, now we need to see some more pictures! Were there any rank restrictions for that appoiment? 

 

Regards 

Toby 

Yes, the collars do serve to illustrate how difficult it can be to pick out red shades within orthochromatic images, just as you say.

 

I don’t know if there was a rank range for the RA Kettle Drummer, but I imagine that there would have been one.  There was a lot of robbing Peter to pay Paul by using the flexibility within the overall establishment table as you will know.

[Muerrisch]

44 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

It’s been almost forgotten now, but from 1886 until 1984 there was a Royal Artillery Mounted Band, although like the line cavalry bands they had not had horses for many decades at the time of their disbandment.  As with the old Hussar bands, there had been as a central attraction within the band a lone Kettle Drummer and I suspect that might be who is wearing your drum badge.  The kettle drummer was a unique appointment within the Royal Artillery and almost like a mascot.  His tunic was the standard RA pattern and the band were not dressed as the Horse Artillery, but as per Field Artillery.

 

Yes I was aware of the existence of the mounted [!] band and its kettledrummer.

 

My quick resort to the Pay Warrants surprised me.

 

Tthe Establishment of the band is a mystery because there is absolutely no mechansim in the Pay Warrants of 1893, 1896, 1913 and 1914 for paying "musicians" as such except for the Garrison Artillery. Thus there is no sergeant of the band, 1st corporal, 2nd corporal, musician [sic] or indeed drummer. Only a trumpeter, not even the additional bugler of the RE.

 

If the band was demi-official and not funded by the exchequer but regimentally, then of course anything that the Royal Regiment wanted [and could get past the inspectors] was possible so long as the misemployed soldiers could be recompensed and their badges provided.

 

Alternatively the band could be within the aegis of the Garrison Artillery of course, which would at least legitimise it, even if dressed as Field Artillery.

 

Perhaps Ron Clifton can help, being the Establishments expert amongst us. I will seek his input.

 

Either way

Edited 12 January , 2020 by Muerrisch

[FROGSMILE]

The Royal Artillery was one of the largest regiments at the time and I know that the officers did pay a subscription to support the bands (there were invariably more than one in the RA).  The artillery band was also one of the oldest military music ensembles, with its earliest mention being as early as 1545, if I recall correctly.

[Peter35]

Apropos the RA Drummer,

 

I’ve just come across a review of:

 

James Tanner, Instruments of Battle: The Fighting Drummers & Buglers of  the  British  Army  from  the  Late  17th  Century  to  the  Present  Day. Oxford and Philadelphia: Casemate, 2017. pp.366. Hardback. £35.00. http://bjmh.gold.ac.uk/article/view/811/933

 

(in the British Journal for Military History, 2018, Vol 4 No 3).

 

While, unfortunately, the review says little about the book itself, it does mention:

 

Farmer, HG (Bombardier, RA Band), Memoirs of the Royal Artillery Band: its origin, history and progress. An account of the rise of military music in England, 1904,

https://archive.org/details/memoirsofroyalar00farm .

 

FWIW, while before the time of Toby’s RA Drummer, there are detailed descriptions of uniforms on pp 90 & 91, 95 – 97 & 184. However, no mention of badges. There are four plates (ink / pencil) of dress worn by the Band at various periods, the most recent a Sgt Major, 1879, facing p 140 / https://archive.org/details/memoirsofroyalar00farm/page/140 ….. who may, or may not, be wearing a badge.

 

I have a couple of Farmer’s JSAHR articles. However, as my interest is in Trumpeter and Drummer RA ancestors, both in the early nineteenth century, the articles are unlikely to be of assistance.

[FROGSMILE]

Thank you Peter, that is very useful.  Interestingly the Royal Engineers band had a very similar band tunic, though in scarlet, to that at the final link you posted above.  The badge that I see, albeit faintly, is that of the special RA Lyre overlaid on 4-chevrons point up, with RA gun and crown surmounting.

Edited 13 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

Thank you all!

 

Some more "easily" digestible RHA images. 

 

Royal Horse Artillery NCOs, Adlershot 1907.

Although nothing too exciting, this sent postcard gives us a great view of the RA Gun badge worn by all NCOs and the seldom seen " Quartermaster Serjeant Farrier" rank badge of 4 chevrons gun and horseshoe. The note on the back is quite funny!

"This is one of the Serjeants of my Battry having dinner on manoeuvres. Me and the other driver was passing and got taken as well." To Mr R Richardson Bell Hotel, Fakenham, Norfolk."