Capture of Major Yate

[seaforths]

Just making my list of German units in a Word Doc to search Ancestry with and noticed that 'Corps Troops' for the IX Reserve Corps has the following 'Munition Trains and Columns corresponding to the III Reserve Corps'. Wonder what that means? Were they sharing manpower resources? That would have tied them fairly close together geographically in the field if they were.

[seaforths]

Phil, don't know if this will be of any use but I've put this together on the German Reserves - it's a mish-mash of information pulled together from Wiki and the book on German Divisions:

GERMAN RESERVE UNITS (CORPS,DIV, BDE & REGIMENTS).docx

I can always add to it if you think I might've missed anything.

[seaforths]

Trying to search using the Reserve Infanterie units is not working very well. Then I found the following:

So it would seem that if you get a hit for a man who spent time with the Reserve units, it is luck, at least at the moment. From what I can see, they still have yet to digitise most of the records of the Reserve units. They have digitised the first 23 units of Reserve Infanterie - so not much help until they add more records. There is a chance that there might be one or two more among the Herman Otto men that might have been in or near Louvain.

Meanwhile, I have sent an email to the Bundesarchiv this morning to try and elicit some help on the newspapers. However, I have not had very much luck in the past contacting archives in Germany. They just ignore me, even when the email has been carefully translated into German...we shall see.

I will try and work through the rest of the HO# men in the meantime.

[Phil Evans]

Just making my list of German units in a Word Doc to search Ancestry with and noticed that 'Corps Troops' for the IX Reserve Corps has the following 'Munition Trains and Columns corresponding to the III Reserve Corps'. Wonder what that means? Were they sharing manpower resources? That would have tied them fairly close together geographically in the field if they were.

I take it that they have corresponding units taken from there respective Divisions. Therefore IV Reserve Corps Troops would be:

4th Reserve Telephone Detachment

7th and 22nd Reserve Munition Column Sections

7th and 22nd Reserve Train Sections

2 Reserve Bakery Columns

Phil

[seaforths]

I take it that they have corresponding units taken from there respective Divisions. Therefore IV Reserve Corps Troops would be:

4th Reserve Telephone Detachment

7th and 22nd Reserve Munition Column Sections

7th and 22nd Reserve Train Sections

2 Reserve Bakery Columns

Phil

Yes, in the Word Doc I put in #116 most of them seem to be corresponding as reserve units. I used cut and paste and they are in the order that they were put online so some of what I would call 'Corps Troops' seem to be listed under a Bde and others appear at the bottom but IV Reserve Corps Troops are a strange one and in that list it refers to corresponding to III Reserve Corps Troops. I don't know if that means they were sharing manpower of some units across the two Corps.

[Phil Evans]

I got the Telephone Detachment wrong (IV Reserve Corps had the 9th, which I overlooked), but I don't think they shared any resources with the Third as far as the Munition Columns and Train Sections are concerned.

To answer another of your quandaries, the most likely Poles at Louvain would have been in 18 Reserve Infantry Division, from what I have been able to put together.

There is a history of RID 18 online. (I'm afraid this is the Google Translate link, so the prose is a bit stilted)

Oh to have access to Athens and JSTOR. This looks interesting: “Fighting For Another Fatherland”.

Phil

[seaforths]

I got the Telephone Detachment wrong (IV Reserve Corps had the 9th, which I overlooked), but I don't think they shared any resources with the Third as far as the Munition Columns and Train Sections are concerned.

To answer another of your quandaries, the most likely Poles at Louvain would have been in 18 Reserve Infantry Division, from what I have been able to put together.

There is a history of RID 18 online. (I'm afraid this is the Google Translate link, so the prose is a bit stilted)

Oh to have access to Athens and JSTOR. This looks interesting: “Fighting For Another Fatherland”.

Phil

No I can't see any of the IX being shared. The following appear to be shared between III and IV

5th & 6th Reserve Munition Column Sections

5th & 6th Reserve Train Sections

2 Reserve Bakery Columns

Looks like an interesting article on the Polish troops. Coincidentally, I'm looking at a Seaforth interned at Czersk and Strzalkowo so off the edge of the map as far as the usual POW camps go and never been able to find anything till I went into those books tonight - so he's right in Polish territory by todays reckoning but on the Posen/Poland east border by the 1913 map! Not one of mine tho' just some help for someone else. I have found a German book on POWs with a list of newspapers but unfortunately, the book is not downloadable as a PDF (only readable online) so will have to take a screen shot of the two pages and save. Then I will check the list against what we have done so far...

[seaforths]

...Oh to have access to Athens and JSTOR. This looks interesting: “Fighting For Another Fatherland”.

Phil

Was Wird Aus Polen?

https://archive.org/details/waswirdauspolen00naum

[seaforths]

Have made some slow progress deciphering some of the records and I have amended #90 to strike the following:

HO10, HO11, HO12 and HO22

Stuck a little with HO23 - Think with the unit shown 8th Bavarian IR, he would be 4th Bavarian Division, 5th Bavarian Reserve Bde and so part of Prince Ruprecht's lot further south - is that right???

[Phil Evans]

If you have the image, email it to me and I'll have a look.

Phil

[seaforths]

If you have the image, email it to me and I'll have a look.

Phil

Will do Phil, thank you. HO15 is not looking so promising at the moment. I've tracked Etappen-Inspection 6 down to northern France 1914 and seemed to have set up a headquarters at Lille They didn't move to Douai until 1916 but so as you told me before 'Hohere Stabe' = Higher Staff + Inspection Etappen seems to be the equivalent to military police. However, I've also found conflicting stuff that they might have been part of 6th Army (another of Prince Ruprecht's lot). Will log onto my email in a wee while and email HO23 to you and then get back to HO15 - as you will probably gather, I'm not doing my batches in any particular order!

I'm trying to find out what an Abteilung is and wondering if it is some sort of detachment/attachment...'Etappen Inspection 6 were not an Abteilung but a Trupp' (another job for the Babbling Babylon Translator!)

[seaforths]

OK - This is complicated...

I was looking at HO15 again because his record doesn't tally with the summary given by Ancestry. It seems they have transposed two different HO and put the summary of one with another. I agreed with your assessment of his record being RIR 35 but that didn't tally with the summary of the Etappen Inspection 6. I put the records I downloaded into separate folders according to their DOB. The DOB in the summary tallies with the record of the RIR 35 HO so where did the 6 Ettapen come from??? I can see something on his record for October 1916 that looks like Ettapen but can't see a 6. Unless Ancestry have used this as a summary reference and ignored the previous service.

I did some research on 6 Ettapen Inspection 6 and came up with the following:

'Etappen-Inspektion 6 was part of the 6th Army. It was under the command of Generaloberst Kronprinz Rupprecht v. Bayern until the 28th August 1916 when General d. Inf. Otto von Below took over the command. Feldgendarme-Unteroffizier Beermann was attached to the headquarters and as such would have followed them from Lothringen through the North of France in 1914. After the race for the sea they set up their headquaters at Lille.' http://www.kaiserscross.com/76001/166401.html

I have just searched Ancestry and found another HO who was according to his summary also Hohere Stabe and with 6 Ettapen Inspection 6 (see column 9 in the image) but a different date of birth:

I don't see any service for him prior to 1915 so I don't think he is a contender for being in the Liege/Louvain area in 1914 but at least it clears up what might appear to be a mismatch between the unit given in the summary and that of the record for HO15 - Good old Ancestry!

[seaforths]

I'm going to pick up the odd one left out on the end of the list next - HO32. I might at least make a start on him tonight and carry on tomorrow...

[seaforths]

Seems that it might be the last unit served with that Ancestry allocates to the summary. I've just been through HO32 his summary has him as IR 47. He starts off with IR 95 in 1913 then spends the rest of the war with various FAR units before finishing with IR 47. I'm striking him though because he was at Luneville 22/8/1914 to 22/9/1914. Didn't think I'd get through another one tonight but I will pick up on them again tomorrow.

[Indefatigable]

According to Wikipedia Abteilung is as follows;-

Abteilung (abbrv. Abt) is a German word that is often used for German or Swiss military formations, and depending on its usage could mean detachment, department, or battalion. It is not uncommon for it to be used in Germans in a more civilian fashion to mean "office department".

During the Second World War, the term abteilung generally meant "battalion" and was used for battalion-size formations in the armoured, cavalry, reconnaissance, and artillery arms of the Wehrmacht and Waffen SS. For example schwere panzerabteilung translates to "heavy tank battalion". But when the term was used for large military formations, it generally meant "detachment". For example armee abteilung translates to "army detachment" and korps abteilung to "corps detachment".^[1]

^[1]Walter Dunn, Kursk: Hitler's Gamble, 1943, 1997, p. 61.

My Collins German dictionary has two entries;-

(1) f, no pl. siehe vt dividing up; cutting off; dividing off; partitioning off.

(2) f [a] (in Firma, Kaufhaus, Hochschule) department; (in Krankenhaus, Jur) section; (Mil) unit, section. an example of usage being er arbeitet in der abteilung Verkauf - he works in the sales department. old: Abschnitt) section.

regards

Indefatigable

Edited 2 July , 2014 by Indefatigable

[trajan]

I quite agree! The devil, as usual, is in the detail...

I need to double check thoroughly, but on a quick read-through, well, according to the late Anthony Carter, the doyen of German bayonet studies (but working on what was known to him in the 1990's), the 71/84 was in service with various non-Bavarian units into WW1, if mainly machine gunners and medical corpsmen - and medics were considered as part of the 'Train'. E.g., a 71.84 bayonet marking '16.T.S.2.19' is accredited to the Train-Abteilung Nr. 16, Sanitatskompagnie nr. 2, Waffe 19.

I could give other examples but that is enough for now!

So, yes, WW1 use of those 71/84's (and so the Gew. 88) was not exclusive to Bavarian units - this (and the uniform colour) is of course where our sparring partner got off on the wrong foot... Now, I haven't found a Saxon 'reserve' unit that might have been using this toy in August WW1, but I have found a fair number of 71/84's with Saxon markings, not all necessarily of WW1 date, although those with machine-gun company and Sanitatskompagnie marks are certainly candidates for WW1 use.

Trajan

Hi Seaforths and others on the trail of the Yate! I am back in service again, so excuse my long absence - this post being just to say that I think this is where I last registered, and reading the previous posts I realise that I still haven't done that 22nd Sept. newspaper report yet... It may have been done by now but if not then this 'new post' will be a suitable aide memoire for me tomorrow when I can properly look at things again.

Now to look through the Yate things for the past 18 days...

[trajan]

My, things have been busy here since Sunday! But I plan to spend time properly catching up tomorrow or this weekend, most especially with that transcription for 22nd and then that long list of German units you have provided Seaforths!

Oh, so I did get a bit further after the 15th... The 22nd Sept. transcript and translation still needed???!!!

[trajan]

... Oh to have access to Athens and JSTOR. This looks interesting: “Fighting For Another Fatherland”.

Phil

I will have a go over the weekend - I'm not certain if we have JSTOR for this at my uni, but I might be able to get it through a society subscription.

[trajan]

According to Wikipedia Abteilung is as follows;-

Abteilung (abbrv. Abt) is a German word that is often used for German or Swiss military formations, and depending on its usage could mean detachment, department, or battalion. It is not uncommon for it to be used in Germans in a more civilian fashion to mean "office department".

Yep, that's right. Seaforths, I would expect your 'abteilung' to have a qualifier, so for example, 'Train Abteilung', 'Zug Abteilung'. etc.

Trajan

PS: Yes, I am hoping to be a bit more active again now the storm is passing, but the work you and Phil have put in here will need a say or so to really get up to speed with after a 2 week absence! BUT,well done on all this research - and thanks you both for sharing it with the rest of us!

[Phil Evans]

Good to see you back Trajan.

Phil

[seaforths]

Great to see you back Trajan!

At the moment, I'm working on Sudarmee. Seems to be south or southern army, German in name but recruited in Austria. That's interesting if the guy I'm looking at was at a recruiting depot for Sudarmee, it suggests the Bavarians were recruiting Austrians or that perhaps the Austrians had their own battalions that were German/Bavarian in name only. I will keep digging on this one - what an interesting mix the German army was with Poles and Austrians. I have found Polish POWs which suggests that the Polish thing must have been divided and some must have fought for Russia.

Also, I don't know whether they would have used Austrians so early in the war in Belgium and Northern France. Geographically, they might have served in the Alsace/Elsass area...

[Phil Evans]

I always tend to forget that my wife's forebears probably fought for the other side, as in fact, despite her parents being Polish in modern terms, they were from Galicia. Some time ago, before I reformatted my computer and lost my bookmarks, I had a link to a website that had photos of WW1 memorials from the towns and villages in that area.

Phil

[trajan]

Good to see you back Trajan.

Phil

Nice to be back! I will have a go at getting the Eng.Hist.Rev. article for you during the weekend. I tried JSTOR but they 'don't archive this journal', and one gets redirected from JSTOR to OUP, but Athens might work, and I'll try that through my Soc.Antiqs. library link - when I can remember my password! If all else fails then I'll check for a hard copy in our uni library - three of our Hist Dept. people are British 'English' historians, and so I suspect that we have it.

Julian

[trajan]

Great to see you back Trajan!

At the moment, I'm working on Sudarmee. Seems to be south or southern army, German in name but recruited in Austria. That's interesting if the guy I'm looking at was at a recruiting depot for Sudarmee, it suggests the Bavarians were recruiting Austrians or that perhaps the Austrians had their own battalions that were German/Bavarian in name only. I will keep digging on this one - what an interesting mix the German army was with Poles and Austrians. I have found Polish POWs which suggests that the Polish thing must have been divided and some must have fought for Russia.

Also, I don't know whether they would have used Austrians so early in the war in Belgium and Northern France. Geographically, they might have served in the Alsace/Elsass area...

Thanks Seaforths - and my-oh-my, how this thread has developed! Now I understand what all those bits and pieces of Deutsch posted earlier are all about I'll have a go at them, but I will make a translation and transcript of 22nd a priority as that should be straightforward - well, !

[trajan]

Well, here (finally...!!!) is my transcript of the BERLINER TAGEBLATT TUESDAY 22 SEPTEMBER 1914, with a rough and ready translation - any and all corrections on transcript or translation happily accepted!

"Der Selbstmord des entflohenen englischen Majors Yate (Telegramm unseres Korrespondenten) Halle, 22 September

Die Meldung von dem Selbstmord des englischen Majors Yate, der in Torgau kriegsgefangen satz und von dort entflohen ist, bestätigt sich. Ich erhalte dazu folgende Einzelheiten: Auf der Landstraße von Torgau nach Martinskirchen fiel unter der Zahl der Arbeiter, die auf der Zuckerfabrik Brottewitz sich zur Rübenkampagne anmelden wollten, ein hochgewachsener Mann auf, zu dessen schäbiger Kleidung, Umhang und blaue Arbeiterhose, sein übriges Aeussere nicht zu passen schein. Zuckerfabriksdirektor Schultze hielt den Fremden, der seinen Rock anhatte, an und forschte ihn aus. Da die Antworten des Mannes seinen Verdacht bestätigten, ließ er den Mann durch Arbeiter untersuchen. Man nahm ihm dabei eine unter dem Umhang getragene handtasche ab, die eine grosse Menge Aufzeichnungen in englischer Sprache enthielt. Während man noch die Papiere prüfte, zog der Fremde blitzschnell ein Rasiermesser hervor und durchschnitt sich die Kehle. Er verblutete in wenigen Minuten. Man fand bei ihm noch einen von fremder hand geschriebenen Zettel, der als Marschroute die Orte Torgau, Mühlberg, Meissen und Dresden vorzeichnete. Der Fremde war der Major Charles Alice Yate. Er hatte ausser englischen Goldmünzen einige hundert Mark deutschen Papiergeldes bei sich."

"The suicide of the escaped English Major Yate (telegram from our correspondent) Halle, 22nd September

The report of the suicide of the English Major Yate, who escaped from the Torgau prisoner of war camp, has been confirmed. I have received the following details: On the road from Torgau to Martinskirchen, there came into the view of the many workers registering for the sugar-beet campaign at the sugar factory Brottewitz, a tall man, shabby clothing, cape and blue working trousers, did not fit the rest of his appearance. Sugar factory director Schultze stopped the stranger, who was wearing his coat, and questioned him. As the man's answers confirmed his suspicions, he had him searched by the workers. They found under his cloak a knapsack which they took from him that contained a large number of records written in English. While they were examining the papers the stranger quickly produced a razor and cut his throat. He bled to death in minutes. It was found that he had a list written in a foreign style (i.e., English not German) the marching route with the places Torgau, Mühlberg Meissen and Dresden. The stranger was Major Charles Alice Yate. In addition to English gold coins he had with him a few hundred German marks in paper money."

... basically it is a longer and somewhat more detailed version - and probably the original source for - what we have already seen in the Laibacher newspaper for 26 September 1914, reported on earlier in the locked thread at post 213 with correction from siegegunner at post 219...

For the sake of completeness, I add this from the Laibacher newspaper also, referred to in the quote above, but with the corrections made by Siegegunner to my original piece.

(Selbstmord eines englische Majors.) Wie bereits gemeldet, ist vor einigen Tagen der englische Major Charles Alice Yate, der von den deutschen Truppen gefangen genommen wurde, geflüchtet. Wie nun berichtet wird, hat Major Jäte Selbstmord verübt. Unter den Arbeitern, die sich auf einer bei Torgau gelegenen Zuckerfabrik zur Rübeukampagne anmelden wollten, fiel ein hochgewachsener Mann auf, zu dessen schäbiger Kleidung sein übriges Äußeres nicht zu passen schien. Der Zucker-fabrikdirektor hielt den Fremnden an und forschte ihn aus. Da die Antworten des Mannes seinen Verdacht bestätigen, ließ er ihn durch Arbeiter untersuchen. Man nahm ihm dabei eine Handtasche ab, die eine Menge Aufzeichnungen in englischer Sprache enthielt. Während man noch die Papiere prüfte, zog der Fremde blitzschnell ein Rasiermesser hervor und durchschnitt sich die Kehle. Er verblutete in wenigen Minuten. Der Fremde war der Major Charles Alice Yate.

"(Suicide of an English major.) As already reported, a few days ago the English Major Charles Alice Yate, who was captured by German troops, escaped. As we will now report, Major Yate has committed suicide. Among the workers who were waiting to register for a beet-picking campaign near a sugar factory at Torgau, a tall man whose shabby clothing did not seem to fit him, stood out [from the rest]. The sugar-factory’s director stopped the stranger and questioned him. Since the man's answers seemed to confirm his suspicions [as to his identity] he had him searched by his workers. They took from him there a handbag that contained a lot of records in English. While they were examining the papers the stranger quickly pulled out a razor and cut his throat. He bled to death in minutes. The stranger was Major Charles Alice Yate."

So, getting back on steam slowly...!!!

Trajan