Capture of Major Yate

[Phil Evans]

And here is the 26th September article, reporting on his burial. I'm not sure if it ends mid-sentence, or not. With my limited linguistic skills I can't find an obvious follow on, if it does.

Both articles are courtesy of the Staatsbibliothek zu Berlin.

Berliner Tageblatt 26.09.14 rev1.pdf

[seaforths]

Thanks for that. I'll give it a proper read when I've got more time to take it in.

Here is the Berliner Zageblatt article for the 22nd September 1914, reporting on his death.

The links to the source are on the document.

And here is the 26th September article, reporting on his burial. I'm not sure if it ends mid-sentence, or not. With my limited linguistic skills I can't find an obvious follow on, if it does.

Both articles are courtesy of the Staatsbibliothek zu Berlin.

Cheers Phil,

I'll have a look just now. I didn't have that much luck with the KOSB but found a couple of Gordon Hrs. accounts that are absolute belters with regards to naming the German regiments, guards etc. It seems as though they too marched to Hal like Ivan Hay. I will post more tomorrow on those. Just time tonight to look at your newspapers with a brew and chocolate biscuits and the photo will have to wait till tomorrow too.

[trajan]

Trajan,

Sorry to disappoint you but it is dated 26th September.

I agree about tabulating the articles. I didn't come in until late in the original thread and with the hours I spent trawling the Feldpost cards, didn't spend as much time as I should going over the old posts.

I will post later (just got in from work) on what I have covered over the past few days, to avoid anyone else covering the same ground.

Phil

Hi Phil,

I woke up the next day in a sweat knowing I had got it wrong as the piece began with a report of yate's death... No more bi- or tri-tasking for me while trying to translate and respond to GWF while doing other things...

Julian

[trajan]

Translation of Phil's newspaper item:

"Major Yate born a German

Our correspondent in Lübeck informs us that the English prisoner of war Major Yate, who escaped from captivity in Torgau and then, according to one report, committed suicide, and according to another made good his escape and is still at large, was actually born in Ludwigsluft, on 14 March 1879, at No 19 Kirchenplatz. His mother was a native of Ludwigsluft, the daughter of a former stable master/head groom named Peters. The father of Major Yate was a vicar in Madeley in England. The wife of Herr Wüsthoff, master cabinetmaker of Ludwigsluft, was a nursery nurse in his household in England for many years. This lady was still in possession of a photograph of Major Yate, which she gave to the Gendarmerie, which has forwarded it to the military authorities."

Ta SiegeGunner!

[trajan]

I found something in the Magdeburg newspaper it was a list really but I could understand bits of it and it mentioned Nr.7 Train Battalion, Munster. I did a search and this is what I found: http://www.kaisersbunker.com/gtp/New/train0.htm

Adds something to TRAJAN's theory reading the information on the Saxon train guard uniform if the men in the photograph were train battalion. Of course they could have been guards to get prisoners from wherever they were being held to their point of entrainment at which time they would be handed over to the train battalion.

Also more here:http://www.krausehouse.ca/krause/GermanArmyOrganization.htm

SAXON ARMY CORPS X11

1st Royal Saxon Train Battalion No. 12

2nd Company

•Seit dem 1. Oktober 1913 war Bischofswerda Garnisonsstadt und Standort für die 2. Kompanie des 1. Sächsischen Trainbatallions. ... Since October 1, 1913 Bischofswerda was a garrison town and location for the 2nd Company of the 1st Saxon Train batallions. [ http://www.bischofswerda.de/stadt/historie.htm ]

•Königlich-Sächsische Armee um 1900/14 (1. Nr. Sächsische Armee, 2. Nr. Reichsheer) ... Königl.-Sächs. Train-Bataillon Nr. 12 - Dresden Brucker-Lager-Marsch von J. Kral ..[ .http://www.blasmusik-sachsen.de/archiv_blaeserpost/2002_01/artikel_01.html [

•Supply Troops ... Kgl. Sächs. 1. Train-Bataillon Nr.12 ... [http://www.wartimememories.co.uk/greatwar/centralpowers/index.html ] Train Battalions of the German empire in 1914

Regiment and Garrison Cuff Pattern & Color Straps Wappen Kgl. Sächs. 1. Train-Bataillon Nr.12

(Dresden/Bischofswerda) XII Armee Korps Black Sachsen (Saxon) Pattern Blue "Squared" Strap Piped in Red w/ Red 12 Gilt Sachsen Wappen on Gilt Star

Train Batl. Nr. 12 wore a light blue Waffenrock with black collar and cuffs piped in red.

Edit: more information added

Seaforths,

You've got exactly to where I was working on before the man in the antipodes selfishly closed the original thread! I still have to do something on that unit ID though - I am not yet certain that the cuff pattern of the saxon Nr 12 Train IS the same as the guys in the photograph and I do need to check... Yes, the Saxon nr.12 was the only other unit (aside from hussars and a few other odd-bods) that I am aware of wearing that light blue thing. The photograph shown on the original thread from SS's 'Aussie friend' is exactly as Drake Goodman has it - can't remember Drake Goodman's exact wording but the uniforms and the officer and OR's weapons indicated to him a train unit.

So many self-promoted specialists fall into the trap of assuming that there is one and one only explanation for things such as 'who uses this type of weapon' or 'who has this type of uniform'...

The dance goes on, though, not the least because I haven't as yet read what comes next in this thread!

[trajan]

And here is the 26th September article, reporting on his burial. I'm not sure if it ends mid-sentence, or not. With my limited linguistic skills I can't find an obvious follow on, if it does.

Both articles are courtesy of the Staatsbibliothek zu Berlin.

Yes, ends mid-sentence and family now calling for dinner so will try to get back later...

[trajan]

I zoomed the kokades in a while ago and two of them did seem to pixellate with the hint of the same pattern in the centre. I wouldn't like to say whether it was a cross, or not, though.

On the kokade - when I took it into pixel level, it made it worse I will try and have another play around with it later.

A quick 10 minutes as I am AWOL from Friday family evening - but I'd leave the cockades for now. They COULD be Hanseatic crosses, but IIRC the uniform colours are wrong for them.

Crossed fingers, etc., that tomorrow I'll have an hour or so and come back with more on the saxons.

Seaforths, Phil A, absolutely sterling work done by you two here! Remember how somebody once complained that "For some reason the truth about this photo of Yate is not supposed to be uncovered.", and that they were "the one person actually trying to find the location of the photo" and by implication uncover the whereabouts of the infamous photograph of Yate as a POW and where it was taken? You have shown what a complete load of balderdash those claims were!

Julian

[seaforths]

And here is the 26th September article, reporting on his burial. I'm not sure if it ends mid-sentence, or not. With my limited linguistic skills I can't find an obvious follow on, if it does.

Both articles are courtesy of the Staatsbibliothek zu Berlin.

Looks as though you had me as your editor! Well, now I am in excellent company! I have had a relaxing couple of hours or so this afternoon. Phil, could it be your Liege Bavarians were on the move???

Well I will now add to the Saxon/Bavarian melee with further information. Spurred on by Phil's information about Bavarians in Liege I decided to pull up a couple of books I've had stashed on my hard drive on the German occupation of Belgium so I have had a quiet afternoon reading and despite feeling more like a postprandial snooze, I've managed to plod on and after getting to 129 pages with still another 70 pages to go...so far this is what I've found (Louvain 25th August 1914) source; 'The German Terror in Belgium; An Historical Record by Arnold J Toynbee':

And continues onto the following page:

I will plod on with the next 70 pages and will then post my stuff on the Gordon Hrs.

Welcome back Trajan - all is forgiven!!

[trajan]

Welcome back Trajan - all is forgiven!!

Nice to be back! Missus and kids asleep so just to note before I go off to noddy-land also that I am looking forward to getting back properly into things!

Phil's Berliner Tageblatt piece does ends mid-sentence, but a quick review of it suggests that Yate had a map (zettel) of the route from Torgau to Dresden... SiegeG or another will hopefully pick up on this as I am really bad and slow at translating into English, but it reads something along those lines.

[seaforths]

There was nothing further in the book naming Bavarians specifically however it did go on to account for the inhabitants of Louvain being driven (by that, I mean forced out on the march and moved out in 3 or 4 batches during 26th and 27th August. Many of them to Brussels itself and put onto to trains to Germany as prisoners. I will put the briefest entries here on the Gordon Highlanders accounts but before I do that, I want to copy a piece of one of Martin's post #70 from page 3 of the original thread here (I did ask him first):

'..."the following is quoted from Lt WYNNE's diary from an entry made immediately after he had been taken prisoner: "We were taken into the Yard belonging to the remains of a farm at the cross-roads and placed under a strong guard there. The troops that had captured our position and who now guarded us belonged to four different regiments; the 26th, the 66th, the 72nd and 3rd Guards Regiment" I thought it worth mentioning as it is very specific about the Regiments guarding them, has decent provenance and (I think) The last of the regiments is not shown on the map annotated with the numbers of the attacking troops.'

The reason I copied that post across is because it ties in with the Gordon Hrs. accounts here in brief: Captain F Bell, 2nd Gordon Hrs.; Captured 10.30pm 26th August searched at 72 IR guard post – marched as far as Halle by (he thinks) 66th Regiment and left Halle by train 1st September. Lt. Col. FS Neish, 2nd Gordon Hrs.; Captured 3.00am 27th August and shouted at by Officer of 66th Regiment of Magdeburg (perhaps 26th). On 28th Marched to Halle. Our escort belonged, I think, to the 26th Regiment of Magdeburg..three officers (Reserve) and men treated us well.

I will add their full accounts to the Word document and post it tonight.

[seaforths]

Nice to be back! Missus and kids asleep so just to note before I go off to noddy-land also that I am looking forward to getting back properly into things!

Phil's Berliner Tageblatt piece does ends mid-sentence, but a quick review of it suggests that Yate had a map (zettel) of the route from Torgau to Dresden... SiegeG or another will hopefully pick up on this as I am really bad and slow at translating into English, but it reads something along those lines.

Do you think the rest of the article will be on the following page as it was with mine? I downloaded 2 pages (one with the article plus the following page) from the link Phil put up, as I am keeping a folder of the newspaper articles as and when I find them or they are posted so I can put up the next page. However I won't be any help at spotting the rest of the article - sorry

Looking forward to your Saxon theory...those Bavarians are creeping closer to Halle and Mons!

[Phil Evans]

Sounds like you are busy Trajan.

I did have two contenders for the follow on section, but they were both only a sentence or two and I couldn't follow the thread. Here is Option 1.

[seaforths]

Oh well done you beat me to it - I was just going to post the page! I have just downloaded a chart to help me convert the German script letters - I get stuck on quite a few but I am getting a little better. I have found more information on the sacking of Louvaine and so it seems quite feasible that the Bavarians moved there from Liege:

'...On this day Louvain was crammed with troops. Some 10,000 men had just arrived from Liege and were beginning to take up quarters in the town. A few hundred hussars were coming along the Malines road, covered with dust and leading their horses by the bridles...This lasted eight days. Every time fresh troops reached Louvain, they rushed on their prey. Recalling his entry and his stay at Louvain on August 29th, a Landsturm soldier from Halle wrote in his diary: "The battalion... arrive dragging along with it all sorts of things, particularly bottles of wine, and many of the men were drunk... The battalion set off in close order for the town, to break into the first houses they met, to plunder - I beg pardon, I mean to requisition - wine and other things too. Like a pack let loose, each one went where he pleased. The officers led the way and set a good example." Source: http://www.firstworldwar.com/source/louvain_judicialreport.htm

[seaforths]

Herewith updated Word Doc that includes Gordon Hrs:

ALL MOVEMENTS FROM BATTLE AREA TO TORGAU.docx

Also, relating back to Hermann Otto, the Bavarian in the book extract I posted earlier; I've found 5 pages of Herman Otto German service papers on Ancestry, I just need to weed out the Wurtenburg and Sache men the rest are Bavarians. There is a chance we might find out who the Bavarians were at Louvain

[trajan]

Slowly catching up...

Here is the Berliner Zageblatt article for the 22nd September 1914, reporting on his death.

I've just started working on that one and hope to complete it today!

And here is the 26th September article, reporting on his burial. I'm not sure if it ends mid-sentence, or not. With my limited linguistic skills I can't find an obvious follow on, if it does.

Sounds like you are busy Trajan.

I did have two contenders for the follow on section, but they were both only a sentence or two and I couldn't follow the thread. Here is Option 1.

Busy indeed! No peace for the wicked OR the good when there are two battling infant boys around in addition to other tasks and chores!

I have done the first part of the 26th September article to the best of my ability (any corrections welcomed, siegegunner!) - but I need to see your option 2 for the continuation, as option 1 (which is missing a bit to the left) it certainly doesn't seem to be.

Berliner Tageblatt – 26 September 1914

Major Yates Begräbnis

(Telegramm unseres korrespondenten)

Torgau, 25 September

Auf dem Friedhofe des Dorfes Martinskirchen bei Mühleberg wurde gestern in aller Stille der englische Mayor Yate begraben, der am Sonnabend von Torgau entflohen war und in der Nähe des Dorfes Martinskirchen bei seiner Ergreifung sich die Kehle durchschnitt. Seine englischen Kameraden hatten eine große Blumenspende dorthin geschict. In der früheren Meldung was gesagt worden, daß ein Zettel von fremder Händ bei Yate vorgefunden worden ware, mit der Angabe der Marchroute von Torgau nach Dresden, ja daß es den Anschein gehabt haben könnte, als ob ein Aussenstehender...

Berliner Tageblatt - 26 September 1914

Major Yate's Funeral

(Telegraph from our correspondents)

Torgau, 25 September

Yesterday, in the cemetery of the village Martinskirchen at Mühlenberg, the burial took place quietly of the English Mayor Yate, who escaped on Saturday from Torgau, and who cut his throat upon capture in the vicinity of the village of Martinskirchen. His English comrades sent a large floral wreath there. In an earlier report it was said that a list [of directions?] made in a different hand from Yates was discovered, indicating the marching route from Torgau to Dresden, so that it might give the impression to an outsider [bystander?]…

[trajan]

I found something in the Magdeburg newspaper it was a list really but I could understand bits of it and it mentioned Nr.7 Train Battalion, Munster. I did a search and this is what I found: http://www.kaisersbunker.com/gtp/New/train0.htm

Adds something to TRAJAN's theory reading the information on the Saxon train guard uniform if the men in the photograph were train battalion. Of course they could have been guards to get prisoners from wherever they were being held to their point of entrainment at which time they would be handed over to the train battalion.

Also more here:http://www.krausehouse.ca/krause/GermanArmyOrganization.htm

SAXON ARMY CORPS X11

1st Royal Saxon Train Battalion No. 12

2nd Company

•Seit dem 1. Oktober 1913 war Bischofswerda Garnisonsstadt und Standort für die 2. Kompanie des 1. Sächsischen Trainbatallions. ... Since October 1, 1913 Bischofswerda was a garrison town and location for the 2nd Company of the 1st Saxon Train batallions. [ http://www.bischofswerda.de/stadt/historie.htm ]

•Königlich-Sächsische Armee um 1900/14 (1. Nr. Sächsische Armee, 2. Nr. Reichsheer) ... Königl.-Sächs. Train-Bataillon Nr. 12 - Dresden Brucker-Lager-Marsch von J. Kral ..[ .http://www.blasmusik-sachsen.de/archiv_blaeserpost/2002_01/artikel_01.html [

•Supply Troops ... Kgl. Sächs. 1. Train-Bataillon Nr.12 ... [http://www.wartimememories.co.uk/greatwar/centralpowers/index.html ] Train Battalions of the German empire in 1914

Regiment and Garrison Cuff Pattern & Color Straps Wappen Kgl. Sächs. 1. Train-Bataillon Nr.12

(Dresden/Bischofswerda) XII Armee Korps Black Sachsen (Saxon) Pattern Blue "Squared" Strap Piped in Red w/ Red 12 Gilt Sachsen Wappen on Gilt Star

Train Batl. Nr. 12 wore a light blue Waffenrock with black collar and cuffs piped in red.

Seaforth, you have finally stirred me into action on the Saxon Train Battalion... I am at home and don't have my saxon file here - it's at the office and so I can't give the source for this illustration right now (I will do so later today) but here are the Saxon no. 12 uniform colours, the top part of the illustration showing the collar and tunic colour, and cuffs and shoulder tabs; the middle bit is the back of the tunic. Note that according to the German source I took this from the Saxon no 12 was the ONLY train battalion with this hellblau tunic - even the Bavarian train wore a dunkelblau tunic (with hellblau collar, cuffs and shoulder tabs).

And you would probably like to see this also - a Saxon Train battalion kratzchen in regulation hellblau, with the large lower cockade having a green inner ring (for Saxony): - http://www.derrittmeister.com/33-132-enlisted-man-mutze-train-battalion-saxony.html

The seller's description of this reads:

Before WW I, the Saxon Army just had two Train-Abteilungs. One was Königl. Sächs. 1. Train Abteilung Nr 12, which was created in 1849. It was garrisoned in Dresden-Bischofswerda, where it was attached to the XII. ArmeeKorps. The second unit was Königl. Sächs. 2. Train-Abteilung Nr 19. This unit was raised in 1899. It was garrisoned in Leipzig, where it was attached to the XIX. ArmeeKorps. Today we are offering an enlisted man’s pre WW I mütze from one of these two Abteilungs. The mütze’s basic body is light-blue. A wide black band, measuring 1 1/2" in width, circles its lower section. Two narrow red bands of piping appear above and below the black band. A third red piping band encircles the mütze’s top. The mütze’s front displays the correct state and reich’s kokarden. The Saxon kokarde is green and white. The reich’s kokarde exhibits Germany’s national colors: red, black, and white.

But as I indicated above, the German source I have been using for pre-WWI non-feldgrau uniforms indicates that the Saxon no.12 battalion was the only one with a light blue kratzchen...

Trajan

EDIT: PS: I am not saying that those men in the capture photograph have to be Saxon, they could be Bavarian: but for the sake of completeness, the possibility that these men are Saxons has to be taken into account, as you are well aware!

[trajan]

Thanks for that. I'll give it a proper read when I've got more time to take it in.

Here is the Berliner Zageblatt article for the 22nd September 1914, reporting on his death.

The links to the source are on the document.

I had a look at this and basically it is a longer and somewhat more detailed version - and probably the original source for - what we have already seen in the Laibacher newspaper for 26 September 1914, reported on earlier in the locked thread at post 213 with correction from siegegunner at post 219... (I suspect it is the original source as the penultimate sentence in this piece is identical to the final sentence in the Laibacher piece - Der Fremde war der Major Charles Alice Yate)

It does, however, add the following extra bits of information:

1) Yate's shabby badly fitting clothing included blue working trousers.

2) The Sugar factory director's name was Schultze.

3) The 'list' (Zettel) that Yate was carrying, referred to in the 'burial' piece for 26 September, and which was written in a 'strange hand '(i.e., not Yate’s) gave the walking route from Torgau via Mühlberg, and Meißen to Dresden.

4) Yate was carrying English 'gold coins' (I assume full sovereigns, but they could be half-sovereigns - or guineas?), and 100 German paper marks.

Trajan

[seaforths]

Heavens to Betsy! You've been busy. Yate was also wearing a cloak that was too short for him. He was also carrying 'English papers' and I take it from that it doesn't mean newspapers. Curious, how did that German newspaper know it wasn't his writing? How did they know what his writing looked like? A couple of the offficer's accounts on Yate said he had committed to memory all the names and the contacts for their NOK so that he could let them know they were alive and POWs. I will check on his file but I think there were only two people that were asked by the Camp Commandant to help identify Yate (bearing in mind they were not allowed to go and see his body) and that was Bond and I think Butler (RAMC). I will check up on this and repost his burial details that I had posted in the other thread. Yes, they did send a wreath for sure.

I will also do the uniform thing but I need to be on the PC or laptop for that.

[trajan]

Heavens to Betsy! You've been busy. ...

... Curious, how did that German newspaper know it wasn't his writing? How did they know what his writing looked like?

... I will also do the uniform thing but I need to be on the PC or laptop for that.

This is only my second free day in over 4 weeks and as it was a Saturday morning, the boys and wifey were fast asleep, and so I was able to catch up somewhat!

Yes, the 'fremde hand' features in both reports, and I have no idea exactly what it might mean other than that it was not Yate's handwriting - unless it was written using a more Latinate script rather than German kurrentschrift?

The source for the Saxon Train Battalion clip is: Die Uniformen der Deutschen Armee Farbendarstellung der Uniformen der deutschen Armee, Verlag von Moritz Ruhl, Leipzig, 1899, Pl. 19.

Trajan

PS: did you like the field cap?

[SiegeGunner]

I need to see your option 2 for the continuation, as option 1 (which is missing a bit to the left) it certainly doesn't seem to be.

I think Option 1 is the missing bit, but one or possibly two words are missing between the two sections.

[trajan]

I think Option 1 is the missing bit, but one or possibly two words are missing between the two sections.

I did wonder about that because of the mention of (apparently) Latin script and (certainly) the English army, but I have to admit that as it began with the mention of a 'game', it didn't seem to fit...

But, let's give it a go...

… im Spiele gehabt hätte. Dies ist nicht richtig; vielmehr waren … snamen, von denen einer noch falsch war, in lateinischer ... stabenschrift, wie es in der englischen Armee bei … Vorschrift ist, abgefast

…] would have in games. This is not so; rather it were [… ]'s name, one of which was still wrong, in Latin […] {?letters?}written, as is the case in the English army by/when […] regulations, ?

Ok, well, I guess it could represent the end of the piece, and it could be restored with what comes before to read something along the lines of:

"In an earlier report it was said that a list [of directions?] made in a different hand from Yates was discovered, indicating the marching route from Torgau to Dresden, so that it might give the impression to an outsider [bystander?]… that [the list] was part of a game. This was not the case: rather the list was a series of [place?] names, of which one was false, all of them written in the upright Latin letters as is used by the English Army according to their regulations."

What do you reckon SG? Ich glaube das deine Deutsch is viel besser als mein!

Over to you now Phil!

Trajan

[seaforths]

It certainly fits in with my earlier post. When Breen and Yate intended to escape together their plan was to go to Dresden and steal a couple of bicycles. The plan may have them become a singular one because they couldn’t get enough clothes for Breen to escape with him. Below is extracted from the map (with key) on his file. Red markings are mine to make the originals easier to find.



R = Sugar Factory Brottewitz
X = Scene of Major Yate’s death
Y = Burial place (Churcyard)
Z = Schloss Martinskirchen
Kottlitz and Guldenstern at the southern most edge of the map are northern areas of Muhlberg. (Sources: Yate file TNA)

With regard to the Berliner Tageblat, I clicked on Phil’s hyperlink for his source and was able to access and download the first & second page quite easily however it is too big a file size to post that one page. I have tried photobucket and it won’t play with documents and knowing my previous shambolic attempt to locate the second part of an article, I wouldn’t even attempt it now. I have your email Trajan so I will just email you the second page – it’s the best I can do under the circumstances. I will have a look and see if I can find out some of the stuff he was carrying with him there are about 5 statements to go through plus Bond’s comments. Meanwhile you might find the above helpful with regard to the article.

[seaforths]

By the way, can someone please tell me what a Schloss is (as in the post above)? I tried typing it into the Babbling Babylon translator and it gave me a number of options but I'm none the wiser as I don't know which it could be (if it comes before a place name I would have thought castle/palace/chateau?):

(new spell.=Schloss) chateau, castle, palace, king's palace; lock, hinge, movable joint on which a door or other part turns
close, shut, shut down; conclude, finish, wind up; include, contain; infer, derive, surmise

Thanks in advance

M

[trajan]

Thanks for that plan - I also knew you were on the cards with this one but even so, my oh my, that plan shows thorough scholarship and is good to have!

Schloss is indeed 'Castle' or the like so in this case rather like Barnard Castle, Co.Durham: the town is Barnard castle, as is the castle.

[Phil Evans]

I've had to be a bit surreptitious keeping up with the thread today - orders from above have had to come first.

Thanks Trajan and Mick for the translations. M, I've got your email.

The Berliner Tageblatt was scanned out of line, which made things harder. I have tried to splice the missing bit on the left hand side. The continuation I used was the most obvious, as it was the only one on the following page.

I'll catch up with the rest later.