Capture of Major Yate

[seaforths]

I see so here you have him getting his kit taken away and then given back to him so that a photograph can be staged.

Has anyone yet considered the possibility that Yate DID have his posessions and battlefield kit removed from him when he was captured, as he was behaving so 'out of control'.?

And then at the time the photo was taken, been offered them back for no apparent reason (I think he looks puzzled). Note the case is under his arm, not strapped over his shoulder.

And what possible reason is there for having his binoculars out upon his capture, especially given the first hand accounts of his desperation to be shot. But the items do add realism.

If a photo was wanted by the Germans for some unknown reason, I think there was plenty of motivation for them to make it appear as realistic as possible (ie. straight from the field)

Cheers, S>S

And now you are showing evidence to prove they are allowed to keep their kit.

Indeed, but it does provide very good background evidence as to how the British POW's were being treated during the aftermath of those early battles.

The evidence is always provided in the photos. These troops are about to be trained back to Germany. We see this O/R has retained several kit items.

My point is that if this is how the O/R's were being entrained for Germany, than Major Yate with his priviliges as an Officer could be expected too as well.

Cheers, S>S

100.jpg

You don't need to post evidence that they were allowed to keep their kit...I already did that for you, several posts ago, I highlighted the inconsistencies around some being allowed others not - when you kept insisting he had his kit taken away.

Still waiting for your response to my earlier questions BTW

[seaforths]

UPDATED TIME LINE DOCUMENT ATTACHED

Cheers

seaforths

GWF TIMELINE OF EVENTS REGARDING MAJOR.docx

[seaforth78]

This dum dum bullet business that the Germans tried to pin on Yate; has it ever been proven that the British used them at the beginning of the war? I wonder, because if the latter had, the Germans would have turned it into a first class propganda campaign.

[seaforths]

This dum dum bullet business that the Germans tried to pin on Yate; has it ever been proven that the British used them at the beginning of the war? I wonder, because if the latter had, the Germans would have turned it into a first class propganda campaign.

Germany were using any opportunity they could to discredit the British and were really pushing the whole issue on the bullets. There are quite a few threads on them and their alleged use here on the forum. The British also accused Germany of using them too of course. And so the war of propaganda raged in the broadsheets and other publications regarding their use.

[seaforths]

It would seem that in excess of 300 posts, we are no closer to the truth. However, if I summarise briefly we have actually managed to make some progress.

SS - If only you had maintained some of the stance you had adopted and made in post #22:
'...From the weapons and uniform of his captors, I do not think these troops were anywhere near Le Cateau. I think they are the POW camp guard well back in the rear.'

TRAJAN - posts #5 and #29 respectively:
POST#5
...bottom Kokarde (buttons) on the feldmützen represent one of the following: the white, blue, white of Bavaria; the white, green, white of Saxony; or white, double red ring, white of Hessen; or just possibly the white, red, white of Bremen. They are pretty certainly not one of the states/places with a full colour centre, e.g., the Prussian white and black, or the Wuerttemburg, black, red, black
I still think that the bottom cockade might hold an answer (and note, incidentally, that it is larger than the national cockade).
POST #29 As far as I can determine...The strongest possibilities Bavaria, Saxony, Hessen, Bremen and Baden, as these all lack a solid coloured circle at the centre.

It would seem thus that we have established based on strong evidence that the guard at Torgau = Prussian Reservists

SS is quite adamant that there are no Bavarian troops or units within a 250km area of Le Cateau. = No Bavarian in the area of capture.

Common sense prevailing then, having eliminated Bavaria from the front then we should examine the presence of TRAJAN's other strong suggestions. Is there evidence to suggest troops of Saxony, Hessen, Bremen & Baden at the Front or back areas?

[SiegeGunner]

This dum dum bullet business that the Germans tried to pin on Yate; has it ever been proven that the British used them at the beginning of the war? I wonder, because if the latter had, the Germans would have turned it into a first class propganda campaign.

The Germans consistently maintained, throughout the war, that the British Mk VII pointed bullet was effectively a 'dum dum'.

[shippingsteel]

There is no coincidence that Yate was sent back to the camp in Torgau. The German system is based upon the unit capturing them taking responsibility.

So he was captured by the 72IR part of the IV Armee Korps based in Saxony. Yate then followed that Line of Communication back to the IV Korps base.

As usual, the main points have been totally missed and overlooked because of members weaknesses in that area of the discussion. Not an accusation, just pointing out a fact.

As mentioned above the Army Korps that captured the POW's took responsibility, and they were then sent back 'down the line' all the way back to the prison camps in Germany.

Now the Army (which in this case is the 1st Army) would have the required support troops following, as has been mentioned. These support troops all are shown on the Army OOB.

At this stage of the war the different Army's operated as virtually self contained units as they had all the support organised and provided for under the plans for the German invasion.

So the critical point is that Yate was captured by the IV Armee Korps (part of the 1st Army) and so the whole 'line of communication' that he followed back to Torgau would be the same.

The photo of prisoners boarding onto the train was added to point this out. On their way to Sennelager after being captured by VII Armee Korps, being guarded by VII AK support troops.

So where do these Bavarians fit in to the chain.? Good question ... on the basis of knowledge of the German organisation and system at that time of the war, they should NOT be there.

The only place that I can see them fitting in, is as a stop-gap measure in a home service role. So whether they were tasked to Torgau as prison guards, or simply town guard I can't say.

The same could be said for Magdeburg, in the same type of home service role. But I can't see them any further up the 'line of communication' to 1st Army, so that leaves Germany only.

And the concept that some have of 'there could not be Bavarians used in a Saxony prison camp' is flawed. Unusual yes but impossible I think not, especially when they weren't prepared.

As an example, at the start of the war there were Bavarians stationed as Central Reserves (Fortress troops) in the border fortresses of Metz and Strassburg, both entirely outside Bavaria.

There were 6 regiments in these garrisons (which was considered a home service role) When the war moved past them as it did, some of these Reserves were freed up for other duties.

I have always considered the Bavarians in the photo to be Reserve troops (not your basic Landwehr) so it is of interest that 4 regiments of Reserve troops were mobilised on 17th August.

At this stage I honestly do not know who the Bavarians are or where they came from, but they are standing there in the photo with Yate, so that point is one which surely cannot be argued.

I have uncovered some interesting leads as to who they might be, but that is all I have. Until we can gain a concensus and shared understanding of the basic concepts we cannot move on.

Cheers, S>S

[Passport2pimlico]

First of all apologies, I'm new to the forum and don't have the WW1 knowledge or experience that most of you seem to possess, and so forgive me, if I state something that is obviously incorrect.

On the image of Maj Yate on page 1, he is standing amongst German troops, holding an object in his hands. Either side of the Major (besides each leg), are what appears to be dark coloured sticks. Now, some on here may be able to them as military apparel, but to me (as a novice) they look suspiciously like crutches. I also notice that on his VC citation it mentions he was 'severely' injured. Notwithstanding, there doesn't appear to have been any further mention of his 'injuries', is it possible that the reason he was separated from the rest of the troops and conveyed in a vehicle, was merely because he was an officer and had been wounded? If that is the case, perhaps the locus in the photo is near to a medical facility, which may also account for the confusion over the German troops, and also explain why he still retained all his equipment at the time. For what it is worth, I also think the he is holding a drink in the photo, rather than the binos someone previously suggested.

[seaforth78]

Hi,

It has already been established that he was never wounded in the 'charge' as there was none having been overpowered from behind and his Coy.overun. Furthermore, elsewhere on this thread, it has been also been noted that he was sent off the battlefield after capture in a German staff car as he held a high degree of interest for the Germans which accounts for his all his kit about him. If you have time, kindly read from the beginning and you'll see the pertinent points put in by Seaforths, Trajan and myself concerning his capture.

Best,

S78

[seaforths]

First of all apologies, I'm new to the forum and don't have the WW1 knowledge or experience that most of you seem to possess, and so forgive me, if I state something that is obviously incorrect.

On the image of Maj Yate on page 1, he is standing amongst German troops, holding an object in his hands. Either side of the Major (besides each leg), are what appears to be dark coloured sticks. Now, some on here may be able to them as military apparel, but to me (as a novice) they look suspiciously like crutches. I also notice that on his VC citation it mentions he was 'severely' injured. Notwithstanding, there doesn't appear to have been any further mention of his 'injuries', is it possible that the reason he was separated from the rest of the troops and conveyed in a vehicle, was merely because he was an officer and had been wounded? If that is the case, perhaps the locus in the photo is near to a medical facility, which may also account for the confusion over the German troops, and also explain why he still retained all his equipment at the time. For what it is worth, I also think the he is holding a drink in the photo, rather than the binos someone previously suggested.

Looks to me like a rifle with bayonet on the left (as you look at the photo) and scabbard of his sword hanging down on the right side. Accounts so far indicate he was, revolver in hand, intending to lead a charge and sensibly, I feel, possibly had a rifle too and ready to go for them. British Officers were known to take up the rifle and I think as S78 pointed out, they were still going in with swords at this time. Just a few thoughts while I look at other things...

I now have the letter of the French Officer fully translated and will post on that too later (probably this evening). The content of which, is very interesting and my amateurish translation on a portion of it was not so far off the mark.

[seaforth78]

Not Yate obviously, but here are three officers of the 1st Gordons newly arrived somewhere in France in August 1914 and this will give you an idea how the officer's 'Christmas tree' was loaded. Take off the sword and pistol and you'll notice that the Yate photo and this are identical.

[trajan]

Not Yate obviously, but here are three officers of the 1st Gordons newly arrived somewhere in France in August 1914 and this will give you an idea how the officer's 'Christmas tree' was loaded. Take off the sword and pistol and you'll notice that the Yate photo and this are identical.

That guy on the right seems a wee bit embarrassed - by the length of the medieval sword he is wearing??!! Family heirloom?

[seaforth78]

When the officers of both the Lowland and Highland Regiments (save for the Cameronians who had the Rifles' Pattern sword) went on active service, they exchanged their baskethilts for the crosshilt which came into service around 1866. The baskethilt was found cumbersome and while gave good protection to the hand, it rather restricted the wrist when swinging the sword. I suppose its harks back to the 14th classical design. Rather functional, but as you say, medieval looking!

[seaforths]

Well my thanks to my friend for the translation of the French Officers letter

Here are some of the contents that might be considered pertinent to the thread:

'...Major C.A.L. Yate was taken prisoner with what remained of his Yorkshire Light Infantry battalion after the battle of the “Cateau” (26 August 1914) and following admirable resistance. When he saw himself taken, he pressed the barrel of his revolver against his temple, but his gesture was seen and he was disarmed...


...two German officers sent by the Ministry of War, came to Fort Torgau and asked to speak to Major Yate, without witnesses being present. Their conversation was very long...
...Captain Brandes in the presence of the Commander of the fort, Captain Braun, explained to me that Major Yates committed suicide because he knew he was accused of espionage for England before the war and that he had been revealed as such (unmasked) by the German secret police...'

[seaforths]

I wonder if anyone might know or hazard a guess at the time lag for getting a German, possibly Berlin newspaper in Switzerland at that time?

It occurs to me that Mrs Yate had a very small opportunity to see that photograph in the paper. She was either very lucky and looked at the right paper on the right day. Or, she sat trawling through German newspapers everyday hoping for news of her husband. Or, she knew he had had his photograph taken and knew which paper it might be shown in. How might she know this? He sent a letter he dated 2 September to her in Switzerland - might he have told her that they had photographed him?

[seaforth78]

The latter point Seaforths seeing that she was clamouring for any news of her husband seems highly likely. Being in Switzerland, especially staying in a first class hotel, she would have had all of Europe's newspapers at her disposal, unlike if she had been living in England.

[Indefatigable]

Do we know where in Switzerland was she staying? Zurich, Basel, Schaffhausen, Constance, Winterthur are places that spring to mind as all were accessible by rail and likely to have available German Newspapers.

[seaforth78]

I'll be right back, let me look at her hotel stationary letterhead,,,,

[seaforths]

It was just a few things kicking around my head. I don't even know if she spoke German. I would have thought she would have been looking in English papers for English casualties. Some other guest might have been helping her and she seems to have been one very astute lady.

I'm pretty sure, when I went through his file, the landowner said that he some of his stuff was returned to the camp but he kept his personal belongings to give to his family after the war. She sent a woman to him in 1917 to get his belongings (according to the landowner). How did she know to do that? They were given a sanitised version of the Breen report of 1919 which omitted the stuff on dum dum bullets. They couldn't have given them the FO report of December 1914 otherwise Col. Yate wouldn't have written the letter he did in July 1915. The War Office were withholding information from them until they could conduct their own investigation after the war.

She must have been using the information from the German press to get to try to find out what happened to him. I also think that she wrote to the Camp Kommandant.

The time line of press cuttings indicates the photograph was shown first. The article referring to dum dum bullets can be traced from source too. If he was interviewed on 16 September and it hit the press on 22 September that took six days from interview to press release from Berlin.

[seaforth78]

Educated Europeans of that era all knew either English or French (the latter being the international language of Diplomats) and even though she may not have known German (highly unlikely given that her previous husband was English) and Yate being half German with English being the preferred language of his household, she may had someone easily at the hotel translate the papers for her when scanning for news of her husband.. There was a similar episode in that Roger Livesay movie called the 'Life and Death of Colonel Blimp except that in the hospital the heroine (played by D. Kerr) knew German and used it to translate between parties....

[seaforths]

Thanks for the background S78!

It seems that we might not be able to narrow down an exact date of the photograph but might be able to estimate it.

[trajan]

When the officers of both the Lowland and Highland Regiments (save for the Cameronians who had the Rifles' Pattern sword) went on active service, they exchanged their baskethilts for the crosshilt which came into service around 1866. The baskethilt was found cumbersome and while gave good protection to the hand, it rather restricted the wrist when swinging the sword. I suppose its harks back to the 14th classical design. Rather functional, but as you say, medieval looking!

Thanks S78!

[seaforths]

I do wonder if Major Yate is in the process of being relieved of some of his accoutrements in the photograph. While he may have been allowed to keep personal items others will have had to be handed over and I would imagine his revolver would have been first, after they had examined the bullets. This process is also very inconsistent with some relieved at the point of capture and others later.

S78 – knowing your passion for swords, you might find the following interesting. The account of a wounded 2 KOYLI officer who on 26 August, received three visitors on the battlefield as he lay wounded and there the Dickensian reference ceases:

‘...An officer in the 2nd line saw me and stopped, found out that I was wounded, took my field dressing, ripped up my breeches, and bound up my leg, which was bleeding freely...This German officer was ...utterly oblivious of the fact that thousands of bullets were finding a resting place all round him. He then passed on. My next visitor was an NCO whose exact rank I was not sure about; this individual relieved me of my revolver and various other things which he found about my person. The next visitor, a private soldier, I can only describe as something between a fanatic and a raving lunatic, and at the moment when he elected to take my sword he appeared to be at the height of his lunacy. Having taken the sword, he proceeded to carry out a fanciful war dance in front of me at lunging distance; thrusting, circling, making imaginary parries, and allowing my sword to whistle past and round my head and body. After five or six minutes of this, he tired of the sport, made faces at me, and finally passed on without passing the sword through either my head or body...’

[shippingsteel]

Well my thanks to my friend for the translation of the French Officers letter

Here are some of the contents that might be considered pertinent to the thread:

'...Major C.A.L. Yate was taken prisoner with what remained of his Yorkshire Light Infantry battalion after the battle of the “Cateau” (26 August 1914) and following admirable resistance. When he saw himself taken, he pressed the barrel of his revolver against his temple, but his gesture was seen and he was disarmed...

...two German officers sent by the Ministry of War, came to Fort Torgau and asked to speak to Major Yate, without witnesses being present. Their conversation was very long...

...Captain Brandes in the presence of the Commander of the fort, Captain Braun, explained to me that Major Yates committed suicide because he knew he was accused of espionage for England before the war and that he had been revealed as such (unmasked) by the German secret police...'

Some very important information contained in this letter I feel. This French officer seems close to Yate, but was he imprisoned with him at Bruckenkopf, or separately in Fort Zinna.?

We know that Torgau was a fortress city, a garrison town of the IV Armee Korps, and was used as an wartime Offizierlager with "camps in Bruckenkopf Barracks and in Fort Zinna".

It is interesting that this French officer gives reference to "the fort" (which is most likely Fort Zinna) as being the location of the Kommandant, as it would be the superior HQ location.

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

I am going to take this opportunity to recap on the major point of this thread, before moving on to take a closer look at the Bavarian Army at the start of the war.

So these German troops in the Yate photo are undeniably Bavarian. While the Kokarden is certainly indicative, it is the unique Hellblau uniform which confirms.

Of the entire combined German army, it was only the Bavarians which wore this particular colour uniform, rarely seen during the war and then only on home soil.

If anyone wishes to test this, please do your own research by looking at wartime pictures of German soldiers. The two-tones in the cuffs are easily distinguishable.

EDIT. The postcard shown confirms the use of this uniform on home soil by Reserve units, being Feldpost marked to the Kgl. Bay. Reserve-Infanterie-Regt. Nr.5

Cheers, S>S