Capture of Major Yate

[Guest]

The fact that Yate's mother was a German might also help explain why he was treated differently.

[seaforth78]

Oh YES! Very much so.....Hence the long interviews at the various HQ's from the time of his capture till Torgau.

[seaforths]

The fact that Yate's mother was a German might also help explain why he was treated differently.

Oh YES! Very much so.....Hence the long interviews at the various HQ's from the time of his capture til Torgau.

Agree both. It was only a matter of time before Berlin were involved. I suspect that information on him was being sent to them on the QT from the various headquarters he was frequenting on the way to Torgau. But from what I can gather, the appearance of the Berliners was a total surprise to the Camp Kommandant. He didn't seem to know who he had on his hands. Possibly, a ploy by Yate not to attract too much attention to himself. The last thing he would have wanted would be being heavily guarded at Torgau if he was planning an escape.

[seaforths]

SS – I do believe you stated much earlier in the thread that you wished to learn more about the man himself. Much of that has been revealed implicitly within posts. However, in order that you can form an opinion of the type of man you are dealing with. I am taking it back to the point of capture.

‘Major C.A.L Yate a ete fait prisonnier avec ce qui restait de son battallion du Yorkshire Light Infantry apres la bataille du Cateau (26 aout 1914) et après une resistance admirable. Au moment ou il se voyait pris, il appuya la canon de son revolver centre sa tempe, mais son geste ayant ete surprise, il fut disarme...’

Here follows my amateurish attempt at translation:

‘...Major C.A.L Yate was made a prisoner with a battalion of the Yorkshire Light Infantry after a battle at Catea (26 August 1914) and after admirable resistance, at the moment he saw he was to be a prisoner, he put his revolver to the middle of his temple when to his surprise, he was disarmed...’

Richard van Emden ‘Meeting with the Enemy’ has written extensively on the capture of Major Yate, interestingly, he writes that the revolver was ‘kicked’ from him when disarmed, later he uses the word ‘knocked’. I have not seen anything that uses the word kicked (although that word could be buried in my attempt at translation from the French). He further writes of an unconfirmed report that he had tried to take his life on the battlefield. I would suggest the origins lie within the letter of Georges Boucier, the French officer that escaped after Yate.

If the revolver was ‘kicked’ from Major Yate then it follows that the German officer must have been extremely tall, extremely agile (or both) or, Major Yate was at a lower level to him, in a shallow trench alternatively, realising his fate was about to be sealed, went to his knees with his revolver at his head - which would, given his background and beliefs, indicate a Japanese style ceremonial attempt to take his own life, as he saw, in the honourable way.
I would suggest what follows is (as Martin pointed out) Bond’s account of them being marched toward Major Yate’s trench and found him there, on his feet and remonstrating with the Germans. It seems that Yate, in captivity chose his friends carefully. He seems to have had his confidants (Boucier and Breen in particular as he seems to have told him about some of the circumstances relating to his capture, his worries about the interrogations etc.)
S78. Look in the file, I am sure I saw a letter in there last night from Col. Yate stating he had received a letter from a ‘French soldier’ that must be Boucier so when Boucier writes ‘Mon Colonel’ it is Col. Yate. Boucier must have known Yate quite well to be able to write to his cousin the Colonel, after he had himself escaped.

SS read this post carefully. Consider the man himself. Do you really think he would be compliant in a German game of let’s pretend you’ve just been captured so we can take a photo with a Prussian reservist guard at Torgau that took the trouble to dress up as Bavarians? What do you think they were doing? Playing charades? Sorry but this thread is in danger of heading off to the panto again sooo...

Moving swiftly on...I think Phil’s posting of that British press snippet was important (Sorry Phil should have said a GREAT BIG THANKS for the post – remiss of me not to). It seemed to indicate the confusion of the British press regarding what was appearing in the German press. Also, he was Gazetted for the VC four days prior to that little snippet, no doubt more confusion.
Col. Yate seemed just as frustrated in July 1915 by the whole British end of things. I will dig it out and quote and transcribe from his letter in my next post...

[seaforth78]

Seaforths, do we know how many times Yate visited Germany from 1906-1914?

[seaforth78]

PS He was back from Japan at this time (1906) and seconded to the WO, who undoubtedly used his German abilities and relations to send him to Germany during this period. I wonder if Richard Van Emden has seen the file we have on Yate?

[seaforths]

Seaforths, do we know how many times Yate visited Germany from 1906-1914?

Not sure I can check. If you look at Boucier's letter he comments on his time in Japan from what I can see but not sure if dates are mentioned. He also refers to the pre war time he spent in Germany. As I said earlier, Major Yate seems to have confided in some quite closely.

PS He was back from Japan at this time (1906) and seconded to the WO, who undoubtedly used his German abilities and relations to send him to Germany during this period. I wonder if Richard Van Emden has seen the file we have on Yate?

Undoubtedly he has checked his files. He writes very accurately. There is a comment in English, translated from the German on his file regarding him trying to take his own life on the battlefield but perhaps Richard didn't go to the nth degree of translating the Boucier letter from the French. He doesn't need to he makes his point and honestly in my opinion. If I look at his sources I would probably find one of his references would be his file.

[seaforths]

So moving then back to the press reporting. Here we can see Col. Yate's frustration with what is happening in July 1915:

Col. Yate writes in July 1915:

‘...He was returned killed in the first Casualty List of the War, but subsequently was found to be alive by a letter which he managed to send to his wife...in Switzerland. Subsequently he was Gazetted to the V.C. as by the enclosed cutting, and was recorded there as having “died as a Prisoner of War”. We know by the German papers that he endeavoured to escape from the Torgau fort where he was confined. The German papers published his photograph, followed by a notice of his attempt to escape, followed by a notice of his recapture and a story that he had killed himself. A French soldier who subsequently escaped reported...Whatever the facts really are, presumably he is dead.’

Col. Yate is really struggling to get information out of them even in July 1915 when they are in possession of a German death certificate and a report from Torgau via the US Ambassador and FO, they still seem to be remaining tight-lipped. Little wonder then, that the British press are making noises about a mystery surrounding the Major back in November 1914.

As far as a time-line for German press, the Colonel seems to have quite a handle on that and puts it in his letter. I am of the opinion that the 'We know..' refers to himself and Mrs Yate. Further correspondence on his file indicates that Mrs Yate was getting information via Germany and German press, I would suggest she was sharing that with her cousin in law and sending the cuttings back to him as there might have been a dearth of information in the British press regarding him at that time...just conjecture of course.

I might also go as far as to suggest that if any British publication or newspapers, were running or had ran a photograph and articles on Major Yate then Colonel Yate would be on it like a car bonnet! Because he sure isn't getting anything out of the War Office. He seems to be telling them in no uncertain terms that so far, the only sources of information are coming from the German press.

[seaforths]

SS, of course nobody will be able to convince anyone that the photograph was not taken at Torgau until some clear documentary evidence emerges. However, remember that quote from Newton, and good old Ockham's razor - or, if you like, Sherlock Holmes on when all other possibilities are eliminated, etc., etc.. Quite simply, the balance of the evidence is against Torgau, and so the onus, it would seem, is on you to prove it was Torgau.

Let's just restate one simple set of evidence for the photograph not having been taken at Torgau. As you pointed out long long long ago (I think first page?), the soldiers have Bavarian weaponry, and as I pointed out long long ago (I think first and second page?), those guards are wearing hellblau Bavarian style uniforms (and the cockades represent a limited group of possibilities than include Bavaria), and as they have out-dated pouches and rifles and bayonets for 1914, then they are 2nd or even 3rd line soldiers.

Now, if you would come up with a convincing explanation as to why 2nd or 3rd line Bavarian soldiers would be at Torgau in Saxony, at the regular (i.e., recruiting) home base of the IR 72, a Saxon unit, which in 1914 supplied two battalions of an Ersatz unit for west front service in addition to sending its regular unit, then hey - yes it would be impossible to rule out Torgau as a possible location for the photograph. But after you dropped the idea that the photograph was evidence of a Bavarian unit at Le Cateau, you began hinting (a while back) that you had a possible ID for where a Bavarian unit might have had charge of Yate. Obviously that did not work out, and so you dropped that to try and locate the photograph him at Torgau.

Either we have Yate under the guard of a group of 2nd or 3rd line Bavraian soldiers somewhere on the West Front - which is basically what you wanted at the start of this thread - or we now have Bavarian soldiers travelling half way across the Reich and insisting on a family snapshot at Torgau as a memento of their holiday trip between approx 26th August and 5th or 8th of September...

We have a phrase in the UK: stop shifting the goalposts! Please be clear on - ie. state explicitly - what you are trying to argue here. You really cannot have your cake and eat it!

Regards,

Trajan

EDIT: Ooops! Just seen the time and have to get ready for work - so apologies now for what else has been posted since that post of SS that this replies to, and I'll pick up on the thread again later

Sorry Trajan, I'm out of sync with my posting! Only scratching the surface, it seems that Torgau pre war was a garrison town, suggesting permanent army, suggesting regular Saxe army unit there. The presence of the regulars was probably required elsewhere at the start of the war hence they got in Prussian reservists.

Hope that makes sense and final nail in the Torgau photograph coffin methinks.

Back to focusing on his capture and newspaper dates. Can anyone tell me of the action of the Middlesex regiment in the battle (Martin???) I have picked up some in the Mons area. I have not discounted Le Cateau or Cambrai as possible photo locations however much evidence is leaning towards Mons. Padre O' and RAMC, marched to Mons from Landrecies, 2 Connaught officers, the travelling companions of Major Yate in action at Landrecies so possibly also marched to Mons but the other travelling companion of his seems to be Middlesex...

[Indefatigable]

The National Probate Calendar of 1915 states that probate was granted on 12th July 1915 to his wife so his cousin's protestations must have finally got through to UK officialdom and they must have accepted some form of official instruction on his death.

regards

Indefatigable

[seaforths]

The National Probate Calendar of 1915 states that probate was granted on 12th July 1915 to his wife so his cousin's protestations must have finally got through to UK officialdom and they must have accepted some form of official instruction on his death.

regards

Indefatigable

Thank you for posting and so I'm sure they must have been forcing the point home against the WO and judging by his file, they were also being pressurised by law firms to confirm his death - why they dragged their heels for so long, I don't know.

[seaforths]

One or two thoughts occurring. Thanks to Martin's posts earlier #155. Time of capture on the field about 4.20pm. Time to get him to Mons by car with enough light left in the day to get a photo on 26th August? I am raising battle type questions again but a photographer at Mons possibly a safer bet with an occupying army than newly captured Le Cateau. Not sure about Cambrai.

Any thoughts?

[Phil Evans]

One or two thoughts occurring. Thanks to Martin's posts earlier #155. Time of capture on the field about 4.20pm. Time to get him to Mons by car with enough light left in the day to get a photo on 26th August? I am raising battle type questions again but a photographer at Mons possibly a safer bet with an occupying army than newly captured Le Cateau. Not sure about Cambrai.

Any thoughts?

One - if the consensus is that the Germans are Bavarians, were any Bavarian units at Mons at the time?

I did plough through the Landrecies cards the other evening and the only Feldpost I could see, dated September 1914, was from, who I assumed, was a Prussian.

I will try later to transcribe the full Sheffield Evening Telegraph piece, in case someone can pick the bones.

Phil

[seaforths]

One - if the consensus is that the Germans are Bavarians, were any Bavarian units at Mons at the time?

I did plough through the Landrecies cards the other evening and the only Feldpost I could see, dated September 1914, was from, who I assumed, was a Prussian.

I will try later to transcribe the full Sheffield Evening Telegraph piece, in case someone can pick the bones.

Phil

Thanks Phil, much appreciated. You know I fall over when I have to leave the Jock regiments! Ok 4th Bn Middlesex at Mons and 2nd Bn Connaught Rangers at Landrecies. At least that's what I have so far and Mons looking very promising. I have a few more things to check on TNA regarding his travelling companions but at the moment...have to wait 3 hours in a car park for no1 son with an iPad signal that takes around 5 mins to load a page!

[Muerrisch]

Here I hope, is the information you asked for Grumpy:

GWF TIMELINE OF EVENTS REGARDING MAJOR.docx

Many thanks for the timeline.

Another one of my awkward questions:

Yate has a CWGC grave in Berlin. Was this a post-war re-interrment ........ had CWGC made any statement as to when/ why?

[trajan]

... So taking into account all of the above, my conclusion was that these troops are the prison guards from one of the POW camps in Germany. Regarding Torgau, I acknowledge the Saxony point which may be partly explained by the fact that the Germans were not prepared for so many POW's. ... The Reserves that were usually in these base depots would have been called up to the front, when things began to go badly, with alarming casualties. ... I don't think it is any coincidence that Bavarian units were being mobilised as these early battles were being fought, and being tasked to guard prisoners.

The one unit that I researched was reported to have 5 Bataillons (20 Kompanies) guarding prisoners. Apparently allocating around 1 Zug to each prison. ... I did read that just 2 of these Kompanies were put in charge of 6 POW camps. So going on that rate this Bayerische LIR could handle 60 prison camps.!

Really don't have time to reply to all the points, as I am leading and instructing a field survey trip and that demands my attention every day from 07:00-22:00... and it is 23:30 here...

But, SS, are you seriously suggesting that in August 1914 Torgau was left without even its basic home base staff and caretakers, or its local landwehr, or landstrurm, to such an extent that they had to bring in Bavarians from the other end of Germany because of an unexpected excess of POW's? And/or are you seriously suggesting that it didn't occur to German High Command that they could slip some reservists or landwehr men to Torgau from somewhat a lot closer than Bavaria? I know that even developed administrations sometimes make the odd decision, but it really doesn't make sense to do something like that! Far better to focus your energies on looking at possible routes from Le Cateau to Magedeburg and how these might intersect with the whereabouts of a Bavarian 2nd or 3rd line unit. For example, V Armee area, with its 9th Bavarian Mixed Landwehr Brigade? Unless, that is, Prince Ruprecht had invited Yate down for a char and a wad in VI Army area before sending him off by train to Magdeburg - in which case if he did, then to judge from yate's expression the wad must have been stale and lacking schlagsahne!...

Also, SS, except for you, we have all been falling over backwards to provide references while sharing information with each other, even when what we contribute is incomplete and/or doesn't seem to fit with a particular line of thought that one or the other of us are arguing - note for example how Seaforths published her time-line of Yate's capture, etc., although I suspect she must have been fully aware that there are gaps in it that could open up further debate, as indeed they did (BTW, thanks Seaforths!)! But you coming out with cryptic references along the lines of "The one [bavarian] unit that I researched..." is simply not on. If you have information that might be of relevance to the debate then you should in all fairness, and for the sake of scholarship, share it with us, even if you think it is no longer relevant - so what unit and what evidence and where can we see it?

In the course of the past few weeks this thread has gone here, there and everywhere. Questions still remain. But SS, please let's leave Torgau out of the equation, for heaven's sake. To suggest - or even worse, to believe - that Bavarians might have been sent there because there was nobody else around to provide a guard at Torgau is, well, not even clutching at straws... It is more like waving while drowning...

TTFN

Trajan

[Phil Evans]

Here is the full transcription of the piece in the 28th November 1914 edition of the Sheffield Evening Herald. Apologies if it only contains regurgitation of information previously posted, but someone may be able to read something between the lines amongst what is written and how it comes across:

"The Mystery of a Yorkshire Officer

ESCAPE FROM PRISON

Among the eight gallant soldiers who were granted the coveted Victoria Cross by the King was Major Charles A. Lavington Yate, of the 2^nd Battalion, the King’s Own Yorkshire Light Infantry. He commanded one of the two companies that remained to the end in the trenches at Le Cateau on August 26^th, and when all other officers were killed or wounded and ammunition exhausted, led his nineteen survivors against the enemy in a charge in which he was severely wounded.

He was picked up by the enemy and he subsequently died a prisoner of war.

At the interesting Belgian Exhibition now being held at the Royal Institute of Painters, a representative of the “Westminster Gazette” was making an inspection of the official German proclamations which have been issued in Belgium during the last three months when he accidently alighted upon a “broodsheet” printed in French, Flemish and German which throws a new and curious light upon what the enemy contends happened to Major Yate after he was taken prisoner.

The proclamations were placarded in large quantities in prominent places and upon public buildings. Whilst the representative was looking through these documents he came across a proclamation which in English reads as under:-

Berlin, September 22^nd_ During the night of the 19^th to the 20^th September , Major Charles Alice (sic) Yate of the Yorkshire Light Infantry escaped from Torgau, where he was a prisoner of war. This is the English officer of whom it was stated the other day that he did not deny upon enquiry the fact that the English troops have been supplied with dum-dum bullets. During this inquiry he stated that soldiers must of necessity use the ammunition supplied by the Government.

The fugitive is about 5ft 6in. In height, is slim, fair and speaks German very well.

To say the least, the circumstances surrounding the fate of Major Yate are mysterious and no less in view of the fact that recently there have appeared in the Press photographs of him as a German prisoner, apparently not wounded.

Major Yate is the son of Colonel Yate, M.P. for the Melton Division of Leicestershire, who last week acted as one of the pall bearers at the funeral of Lord Roberts."

[seaforth78]

Hi Phil

Thank you for that Phil. Btw the last line is incorrect as Colonel Yate was CAL's cousin not father. Yet another reason (like the Yate photo) to treat captions with scrutiny.

[seaforth78]

Many thanks for the timeline.

Another one of my awkward questions:

Yate has a CWGC grave in Berlin. Was this a post-war re-interrment ........ had CWGC made any statement as to when/ why?

Here it is Grumpy, straight from the GWGC site why Yate's grave was moved here:

Historical Information

In 1922-23 it was decided that the graves of Commonwealth servicemen who had died all over Germany should be brought together into four permanent cemeteries. Berlin South-Western was one of those chosen and in 1924-25, graves were brought into the cemetery from 146 burial grounds in eastern Germany.

There are now 1,176 First World War servicemen buried or commemorated in the Commonwealth plot at Berlin South-Western Cemetery. The total includes special memorials to a number of casualties buried in other cemeteries in Germany whose graves could not be found.

The following cemeteries are among those from which graves were brought to Berlin South-Western Cemetery:-

ALTDAMM PRISONERS OF WAR CEMETERY, 8 kilometres East of Stettin, in the Province of Pommern (Pomerania), contained the graves of 46 soldiers from the United Kingdom, three from Newfoundland and two from Canada, who died in 1915-1918.

BUDEROSE PRISONERS OF WAR CEMETERY, near Guben, in the Province of Brandenburg, contained the graves of 18 soldiers from the United Kingdom, one from Canada and one from Australia, all of whom died in 1918.

CROSSEN PRISONERS OF WAR CEMETERY, 3 kilometres East of Crossen, on the river Oder, in the Province of Brandenburg, contained the graves of 66 sailors and soldiers from the United Kingdom, one from Australia and one from South Africa all of whom died in 1918.

DOBERITZ PRISONERS OF WAR CEMETERY, about 19 kilometres West of Berlin, in the Province of Brandenburg, contained the graves of 38 sailors and soldiers from the United Kingdom who died in 1914-1918.

HASENHEIDE GARRISON CEMETERY, on the South side of the city of Berlin, contained the graves of 369 Russian, 125 French, and 58 Belgian, American, Italian, Rumanian, Portuguese or Serbian soldiers; 63 sailors, soldiers and Marines from the United Kingdom; and one Indian soldier.

HEILSBERG PRISONERS OF WAR CEMETERY, in Ostpreussen (East Prussia), contained the graves of 50 soldiers and one Marine from the United Kingdom, who died in 1917 and 1918. Only twelve of which were found when the graves were being recovered; the remainder are still buried at Heilsberg.

KLEIN WITTENBERG OLD CEMETERY, 3 kilometres West of Wittenberg, in the Prussian province of Saxony, contained the graves of 23 soldiers, one Marine and eight civilians from the United Kingdom and one soldier from India, all of whom died in 1915; the NEW (or PRISONERS OF WAR) CEMETERY, those of 71 soldiers and three civilians from the United Kingdom, two soldiers from Canada and one from Australia, who died in 1915, 1917 and 1918; and WITTENBERG OLD SMALL CEMETERY those of two soldiers from the United Kingdom who died in 1914 and 1915. The first and third of these cemeteries are associated with the outbreak of typhus at the Wittenberg camp in December 1914.

LAMSDORF PRISONERS OF WAR CEMETERY, in Schlesien (Silesia), contained the graves of 81 soldiers from the United Kingdom, one from Australia and one from New Zealand, who died in 1917-1919 (it was used for French burials in 1870-71).

MAGDEBURG MILITARY CEMETERY, in Prussian Saxony, contained the graves of 24 soldiers and one Marine from the United Kingdom who died in 1915-1918.

MERSEBURG TOWN CEMETERY, in Prussian Saxony, contained the graves of 12 soldiers from the United Kingdom who died in 1914-1917, and the PRISONERS OF WAR CEMETERY those of 33 soldiers from the United Kingdom who died in 1917-1918.

OPPELN TOWN CEMETERY, in Upper Silesia, contained the graves of 41 soldiers from the United Kingdom who died in 1921-22. They belonged to the British force stationed in Upper Silesia during the Plebiscite. Thirty of them, who died after the legal termination of the war, were left buried at Oppeln. SCHNEIDEMUHL PRISONERS OF WAR CEMETERY, in Posen, West Prussia, on the borders of Poland, contained the graves of 76 soldiers from the United Kingdom, five from Australia, three of the Royal Guernsey Light Infantry, and one from Canada, who died in 1915-1918. Eighteen of the graves could not be recovered.

STARGARD PRISONERS OF WAR CEMETERY, in Pomerania, contained the graves of 37 soldiers and one Marine from the United Kingdom, two soldiers from New Zealand and one of the Royal Guernsey Light Infantry, who died in 1917-1918.

STENDAL PRISONERS OF WAR CEMETERY, in Prussian Saxony, contained the graves of 140 soldiers from the United Kingdom, two from Canada and one from Newfoundland, who died in 1917-1918.

ZERBST (HEIDETOR) CEMETERY, in Anhalt, contained the graves of two soldiers from the United Kingdom who died in 1914-1915, and the PRISONERS OF WAR CEMETERY those of 45, who died in 1917-1918.

[shippingsteel]

One - if the consensus is that the Germans are Bavarians, were any Bavarian units at Mons at the time?

Of course this is the real crux of the matter here, how can there be Bavarians in this photo if it is taken anywhere near that front in late August 1914.?

There were no Bavarians within 250km of Le Cateau at that time. If anyone has delusions that it was taken upon capture than answer that question.!

There is no coincidence that Yate was sent back to the camp in Torgau. The German system is based upon the unit capturing them taking responsibility.

So he was captured by the 72IR part of the IV Armee Korps based in Saxony. Yate then followed that Line of Communication back to the IV Korps base.

Everyone on this forum has different sets of strengths and weaknesses in their knowledge base. When moving out of our area we always tend to struggle.

Anyone who has knowledge of the German Army uniforms and organisation will tell you that there is basically 0% chance that this photo is at Le Cateau.

I too (like everyone else) can not actually prove, exactly where this photo is taken. I started this thread in the hope that we could work together to find out.

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

Now this is not related to the issue at hand. I am simply adding this to provide some background to what can be established from such photos.

This photo shows early war British prisoners being loaded onto trains for the journey back to Germany for quite a long spell in the POW camp.

Of minor interest to the Yate issue is the appearance of the Scottish regiment soldier, shown in full dress complete with kit and haversack slung.

From the writing on the card we can see that these prisoners are bound for Sennelager, which was a major base for the German VII Armee Korps.

The troops are also dressed and armed as Prussian Landwehr/Landsturm wearing the Dunkelblau uniform. (So these are 3rd line support troops)

With the information from this photo, we can say with high probability, that these troops were captured by the VII Armee Korps of the German 2nd Army.

Cheers, S>S

[seaforths]

Here is the full transcription of the piece in the 28th November 1914 edition of the Sheffield Evening Herald. Apologies if it only contains regurgitation of information previously posted, but someone may be able to read something between the lines amongst what is written and how it comes across:

"The Mystery of a Yorkshire Officer

ESCAPE FROM PRISON

Among the eight gallant soldiers who were granted the coveted Victoria Cross by the King was Major Charles A. Lavington Yate, of the 2^nd Battalion, the King’s Own Yorkshire Light Infantry. He commanded one of the two companies that remained to the end in the trenches at Le Cateau on August 26^th, and when all other officers were killed or wounded and ammunition exhausted, led his nineteen survivors against the enemy in a charge in which he was severely wounded.

He was picked up by the enemy and he subsequently died a prisoner of war.

At the interesting Belgian Exhibition now being held at the Royal Institute of Painters, a representative of the “Westminster Gazette” was making an inspection of the official German proclamations which have been issued in Belgium during the last three months when he accidently alighted upon a “broodsheet” printed in French, Flemish and German which throws a new and curious light upon what the enemy contends happened to Major Yate after he was taken prisoner.

The proclamations were placarded in large quantities in prominent places and upon public buildings. Whilst the representative was looking through these documents he came across a proclamation which in English reads as under:-

Berlin, September 22^nd_ During the night of the 19^th to the 20^th September , Major Charles Alice (sic) Yate of the Yorkshire Light Infantry escaped from Torgau, where he was a prisoner of war. This is the English officer of whom it was stated the other day that he did not deny upon enquiry the fact that the English troops have been supplied with dum-dum bullets. During this inquiry he stated that soldiers must of necessity use the ammunition supplied by the Government.

The fugitive is about 5ft 6in. In height, is slim, fair and speaks German very well.

To say the least, the circumstances surrounding the fate of Major Yate are mysterious and no less in view of the fact that recently there have appeared in the Press photographs of him as a German prisoner, apparently not wounded.

Major Yate is the son of Colonel Yate, M.P. for the Melton Division of Leicestershire, who last week acted as one of the pall bearers at the funeral of Lord Roberts."

Thanks once again Phil,

I haven't had chance to amend that document yet but I will tonight.

I have located some details on one of the Connaught officers travelling companion of Major Yate to Torgau:

Lieut. JL Hardy 1st Connaught Rangers.

Date of capture: 27 August 1914

Place of capture: Maroillers

Marched through Le Cateau and Belgium he doesn't know where he was but put on a train there. Train went via Cologne to Magdeburg. Spent 5 days shut up in a room at Magdeburg with 2 hours a day in an exercise courtyard, then put on a train with Yate and Roche.

Arrived Torgau: 5 September 1914

Struggling a bit with the other two but so far:

Capt. WW Roche possibly 1st or 2nd Connaught Rangers

Lieut. GB Budden 8th Middlesex.

Many thanks for the timeline.

Another one of my awkward questions:

Yate has a CWGC grave in Berlin. Was this a post-war re-interrment ........ had CWGC made any statement as to when/ why?

Grumpy the man who owned all of the land including the sugar factory, paid for Major Yate's funeral expenses out of his own pocket. He provided the plot, bought the coffin, provided a good cross to mark the grave and ensured the upkeep of his grave. All of the POWs I have researched to date that have been buried in solitary graves in Germany (ie not buried at POW camps) were moved after the war.

Thanks for your post too S78. Just an observation but while Torgau is Saxony, I note from your CWGC information it is given as 'Prussian Saxony' so more evidence to suggest Prussian reservists might be allotted the task of Torgau than Bavarians?

[seaforth78]

Indeed Seaforths; I can't see that Bond after having spent the whole of the war in a POW camp and surely being an educated man, not picking up a good standard of conversational German could still be mistaken that these men who captured him and his unit were not Prussian.

SS, your Gordon Highlander O/R in the photo armed with only haversack cannot be compared to Yate with his full officers kit. Grasping at straws.......

[seaforth78]

But, SS, are you seriously suggesting that in August 1914 Torgau was left without even its basic home base staff and caretakers, or its local landwehr, or landstrurm, to such an extent that they had to bring in Bavarians from the other end of Germany because of an unexpected excess of POW's? And/or are you seriously suggesting that it didn't occur to German High Command that they could slip some reservists or landwehr men to Torgau from somewhat a lot closer than Bavaria? I know that even developed administrations sometimes make the odd decision, but it really doesn't make sense to do something like that! Far better to focus your energies on looking at possible routes from Le Cateau to Magedeburg and how these might intersect with the whereabouts of a Bavarian 2nd or 3rd line unit. For example, V Armee area, with its 9th Bavarian Mixed Landwehr Brigade? Unless, that is, Prince Ruprecht had invited Yate down for a char and a wad in VI Army area before sending him off by train to Magdeburg - in which case if he did, then to judge from yate's expression the wad must have been stale and lacking schlagsahne!...

Seaforths, I daresay I cannot refute what Trajan has said and rings true; I would concur that these were Prussians guarding Yate, no chance of Bavarians being brought from the other side of Germany to garrison a POW camp in Saxony; each town or district in Germany had the the local Regiment's depot and would be guarded by them. It's like if lets say the 7th Camerons allowed to poach on the 6th Seaforth's preserves in Morayashire I suppose. SS doesn't seem to want to accept that the Germans maintained their Regimental centres intact.

[shippingsteel]

SS, your Gordon Highlander O/R in the photo armed with only haversack cannot be compared to Yate with his full officers kit. Grasping at straws.......

Indeed, but it does provide very good background evidence as to how the British POW's were being treated during the aftermath of those early battles.

The evidence is always provided in the photos. These troops are about to be trained back to Germany. We see this O/R has retained several kit items.

My point is that if this is how the O/R's were being entrained for Germany, than Major Yate with his priviliges as an Officer could be expected too as well.

Cheers, S>S