Capture of Major Yate

[trajan]

In the same piece, I think there is a mistake in 'Der Zucker-fabrikdirektor hielt den Freunden an und forschte ihn aus', and it should be 'den Fremden', not 'den Freunden', so it should be translated as 'The sugar factory manager stopped the stranger and questioned him'.

I do agree and I will try to attach the PDF of the relevant page for cross-checking

Just an observation. Would not the guards at Torgau have been Saxon? Mostly recruited locally/reservists fit to serve but not to fight at the front.

Very good point!

Now, I'll try and upload that newspaper page...

Nope, the file was too big... And i don't have a PDF editor... I'll see what I can do...

Trajan

[seaforths]

Much as I am trying to accommodate the idea that the photograph might have been taken at Fort Zinna, in reality, I everything I find contradicts that theory. As I said in my earlier post before my internet connection nose-dived, there were two camps in use Fort Zinna being one. The other was Bruckenkopf. Please excuse the delay, I don’t read or speak German and so it has taken me some time to work this out. In addition, I have used screen shots so that anyone who can speak/read German will not think I have made a spelling error.

Firstly, there is the following on Major Yate’s file:


A map of that period shows the bahnhof which I believe is German for railway station, to be here at number 5 (the key says number 5 is bahnhof).



On an old historical map which I have used to simplify things, the whole area can be seen and I have marked with a small red cross where I believe the railway station would be.



I cannot see how he would be photographed at Fort Zinna given the position of the railway station on the map and Bruckenkopf.

[Guest]

Hello

Did Yate write "Moral Qualities in War" (1914) ?

MG

[seaforth78]

Hi Martin,

Yes he did, a lot of it seemed heavily influenced by his time in the Russo-Japanese War which he covered for the WO. He became one of the first British Officers seconded to the Japanese Army during the Anglo-Japanese Alliance (1903-1921) Observing the Bushido code of the Japanese, he was strongly of the opinion that the British soldier should emulate his eastern ally in valour.

[seaforths]

Hello

Did Yate write "Moral Qualities in War" (1914) ?

MG

Yes, I gather he did. Madeley Town Council have a PDF on Major Yate and that is one of their sources for their article. His cousin Colonel CE Yate also wrote a couple of books too.

[shippingsteel]

As regards S>S's latest photo of Fort Zinna, I'm afraid I can't agree with his identification of the 'location of the photo', as there are definitely more openings in the wall that ought to be visible if the photo of Yate with the German soldiers had been taken there.

Well spotted SG.! I always try to disprove all my theories well before making any statement, and that is the first thing I had to explain. It is of course the scientific process.!

While the whitewashed buildings that I illustrated in the earlier post #189 are of similar architecture and are in the same fortress complex, they're not the Rotunda building.

I too had to look very hard for the drawings of the Rotunda building to be able to tick that box. There certainly should be another window above that opening if same pattern.

However much to my surprise when I uncovered the drawings, that end of the Rotunda building is different and only has the single window, with nothing there directly above.

It was certainly a Eureka moment when I realised they were a match.! That end of the building has 2 wider spaced windows bottom level, with an offset window on 2nd level.

Cheers, S>S

[Muerrisch]

S>S please can you do a close up of the paving of the courtyard: I do not think it matches but willing to be convinced.

[shippingsteel]

No Grumpy I do not have any shots of the cobblestones from the photo location. As stated above the courtyard in post #189 is in a different area of the complex.

Cheers, S>S

[Guest]

Yes, I gather he did. Madeley Town Council have a PDF on Major Yate and that is one of their sources for their article. His cousin Colonel CE Yate also wrote a couple of books too.

I have it in PDF if anyone would like it. Heavy emphasis in the Japanse culture and given he spent time in Japan, I think it is a good fit. Says a lot about his mindset. MG PM me with email. Can drop-box. 23MB file. Out of copyright.

[seaforths]

I have it in PDF if anyone would like it. Heavy emphasis in the Japanse culture and given he spent time in Japan, I think it is a good fit. Says a lot about his mindset. MG PM me with email. Can drop-box. 23MB file. Out of copyright.

Many thanks

S>S please can you do a close up of the paving of the courtyard: I do not think it matches but willing to be convinced.

I don't think you can improve on the quality unless you buy the item if you get my drift - SS will

[shippingsteel]

Regarding mention of the standard of Yate's dress and uniform in the photo. I believe the Officer POW's were reasonably well looked after during their time in captivity.

Just getting back to the uniform focus on this thread for a moment, can anyone please confirm for me that these are appropriately dressed GW period French Officers.?

I found this apparently period postcard on the net during my research on Fort Zinna. The caption clearly states where it was taken, but never put much faith in captions.!

If this postcard is confirmed as correct, then it does also show that there was plenty of photographic interest in the location and the prisoners held within during that time.

Cheers, S>S

[seaforths]

SS – just in case you missed my post #231, here it is again but in a different format with some additional information. Padre O’Rourke was a fellow prisoner with Major Yate and he wrote a letter to Mrs Yate. They used to share early morning ablutions – man the pump for each other etc. But I digress. Something interesting in his letter:




Here is another map. Note; the Elbe is nowhere near Fort Zinna:

[seaforths]

Just for the record here is an image of Bruckenkopf:



If anyone needs a better quality image be prepared to part with 7 Euros

Edit: allegedly circa 1915

[shippingsteel]

Seaforths, yes I understand what you mean about he escaped from Bruckenkopf not Fort Zinna, it was the less secure of the prison camps, so very understandable.

From what I gather both camps were used to hold the prisoners, and obviously the photo was not taken when he escaped but previously. Possibly when he arrived.?

I think there would have been some 'novelty value' in the first British officer POW's arriving at the camp, so it may have been organised when processing at the Fort.

I am more than happy to accept other alternatives, as long as we can find a match amongst the buildings etc. But I couldn't find any buidings to fit from Bruckenkopf.

More research work needs to be done, and more archive photos need to be dredged up before this can be proven without doubt. I feel we are getting closer though.

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

Here is another diagram that I have done of the building that I believe makes up the background of the Yate photo. This is a Nazi era photo and is the best I can offer.

This shot is roughly from the same angle as the Yate photo, a little higher up and not taken from the ground level. And I believe the gatehouse has been redeveloped.

From this photo you can probably get a feel for why I think it's a match. Of course it is difficult when not taken from exactly the same angle, and we need more photos.

However from this shot you can see the upper level window (the corner of which is in the Yate photo) ... and the shadow that runs down the side of the corner column.

Also note the very light coloration of the wall of the building, which is quite noticeable in the photo in question. It may have been taken around the same time of the day.

So that is what I have got, and everyone can make their own judgement. There are other drawings of the building, but we need to get old archive photos to prove this.

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

Seaforths was very right to raise the points about Bruckenkopf and the location of the Railway Station, to enable us to get a better idea of Yate's movements from the accounts.

This illustration below shows just how close Fort Zinna was to the Railway Station. This is important as the troops were transported in after their capture in France via the railway.

Shown with a blue line is the route they would have taken upon arrival at Torgau, with a short march up the hill to the prison. The main gate & photo location shown with red cross.

Cheers, S>S

[trajan]

I have it in PDF if anyone would like it. Heavy emphasis in the Japanse culture and given he spent time in Japan, I think it is a good fit. Says a lot about his mindset. MG PM me with email. Can drop-box. 23MB file. Out of copyright.

Been off for a while - work being the curse of the GWF Yate-debate-following classes...

I wonder if his interest / fascination in things Bushido influence his decision to commit suicide?

[trajan]

Regarding mention of the standard of Yate's dress and uniform in the photo. I believe the Officer POW's were reasonably well looked after during their time in captivity.

Just getting back to the uniform focus on this thread for a moment, can anyone please confirm for me that these are appropriately dressed GW period French Officers.?

Yes, I saw that one and also wondered = nice cushy billet with a rose trellis either side of the door! But there is something odd and non-Frenchie about the head gear worn by the Pattonesque chap centre right (OK, I didn't know that Patton, but I knew his son, General George S. IV or V or whatever, and the stance and somewhat portliness looks similar!). Note, though, no bits of kit on them.

Not certain if it necessarily shows a fascination with Torgau per se - photo caption indicates that it is no. 17 in a series on Germany...

[trajan]

Seaforths, yes I understand what you mean about he escaped from Bruckenkopf not Fort Zinna, it was the less secure of the prison camps, so very understandable.

From what I gather both camps were used to hold the prisoners, and obviously the photo was not taken when he escaped but previously. Possibly when he arrived.?

I think there would have been some 'novelty value' in the first British officer POW's arriving at the camp, so it may have been organised when processing at the Fort.

I am more than happy to accept other alternatives, as long as we can find a match amongst the buildings etc. But I couldn't find any buidings to fit from Bruckenkopf.

More research work needs to be done, and more archive photos need to be dredged up before this can be proven without doubt. I feel we are getting closer though.

Cheers, S>S

But if at Torgua, then we come up against our earlier conclusion that the guards in the photograph are more probably from a Bavarian unit than anything else, and as Seaforths pointed out earlier - and a good point indeed! - Torgua is in Saxony so we should be looking at Saxon-style dunkelblau uniforms... I have access to the 1877 regulations on uniform colours / pipings / cuffs, etc., and if I can I will check later before I go off on a 10-day field trip.

[seaforth78]

Trajan and Seaforths

Could you please PM me Yate's essay? I thought I had it on hand but I'm afraid I don't. If Trajan doesn't then perhaps Seaforths might have a copy?

[seaforths]

Trajan and Seaforths

Could you please PM me Yate's essay? I thought I had it on hand but I'm afraid I don't. If Trajan doesn't then perhaps Seaforths might have a copy?

Can't seem to get a PM to you - inbox full?

[seaforths]

While I have been absent due to domestic issues. However, I have managed to snatch some time for research just too busy with other things to find the time to post it.
Here the image of Bruckenkopf again, rendered in black and white this time:



Another image here a little later WW2 and it was again being used to contain POWs.



Notice the light building on the left? It protrudes into the fort itself with its little window up there and then you have the courtyard on the other side of the wall the tall construction with the flagpole, it’s over a cobbled archway (I too have a detailed plan). With the right angle and lighting... mystery solved methinks! Bruckenkopf it is!

[seaforth78]

Hi

Thanks for that! Yeah it's probably better you PM the document to my gmail. Thanks!

[shippingsteel]

Just a little more information on that postcard that was taken at Fort Zinna showing the French officers (and I think very possibly a Belgian officer as well).

It seems that these postcards were all part of a series that were taken by the Red Cross covering the POW's in the camps. From the website linked HERE

"There were 78 cards in this official Red Cross series, and PoWs from several different countries were represented. The scenes included general views of the camps. Photographs of prisoners at work, recreation, roll-calls, hospitals and even camp cemeteries."

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

While I have been absent due to domestic issues. However, I have managed to snatch some time for research just too busy with other things to find the time to post it.

Notice the light building on the left? It protrudes into the fort itself with its little window up there and then you have the courtyard on the other side of the wall the tall construction with the flagpole, it’s over a cobbled archway (I too have a detailed plan). With the right angle and lighting... mystery solved methinks! Bruckenkopf it is!

Very interesting, and as I said before I more than welcome any alternatives to help us to prove the location of the photo. Everything needs to be fully investigated.!

I wasn't able to find much about Bruckenkopf previously as I was focussed on Fort Zinna, but now that I look at it more closely, there are some interesting buildings.

Found these postcards of the Bruckenkopf prison on this site HERE and it has an interesting story to go with it, about how photographers would produce the cards.

And as you said there are some prospective looking archways and multi-level buildings there to work with. I will have a closer look through and see what shows up.

Cheers, S>S