Capture of Major Yate

[seaforths]

Whoops - a sentence and a reference got lost in transmission...

second one is PDF at: http://www.dlib.si/details/URN:NBN:SI:doc-4Z1HZ6CW

See page 1930, middle column, bottom thereof going into 3rd column

I have done a very quick transcript while the boys are playing football outside but that has to be improved on. The report is essentially about the suspicion at the sugar factory, the bag with English-language papers in it, and the challenge and how - ...zog der Fremde blitzschnell ein Rasiermesser hervor und durchschnitt sich die Kehle. Er verblutete in wenigen Minuten. Der Fremde war der Major Charles Alice Yate.

Poor chap...

Thank you - I know you said you were busy but still found time to share it and please do drop me a PM although the book is too big to send to you via PM I would need an email to upload onto Skydrive

[trajan]

Thank you - I know you said you were busy but still found time to share it and please do drop me a PM although the book is too big to send to you via PM I would need an email to upload onto Skydrive

A quick peep at the thread before bed- and story-time!

Happy to share - that's what we are here for.

Will do PM soonest, but in meantime interesting bit from that newspaper article about Yate - it seems he was singled out at the factory partly because he was "ein hochgewachsener Mann" . Now, 1.73 m. is not that tall, so those guards in the photo are really on the vertically challenged side!

Now to Thomas and Tank Engine and Mega trucks (5 and 7 years old respectively).

[seaforths]

Well, it seems my last post has gone astray.

I've just managed to look at the article and book.

Book first. Page 90 and 91 of the book; same article in different languages giving his escape and physical description. I would have put him taller from the photograph but it indicates how pictures can be deceiving. It also relates to the Kaiser's missal to President Wilson shown on page 89 (An accusatory and protest regarding the Belgian and British use of Dum dum bullets amongst other things) and makes sense now as to why it was probably being used in various forms in the press of other countries.

The article. I'm intrigued to know what it all says. As an aside, I was, a few months ago doing some research on the Sugar Factory in 1914. However, I have to point out my CSE grade 2 French is not helping me here

[shippingsteel]

Extracted from an undated letter written by Yate’s cousin to Mr Chamberlain:

‘...We know by the German papers that he endeavoured to escape from the Torgau fort where he was confined. The German papers published his photograph and a notice of his attempt to escape, followed by a notice of his recapture and a story that he had killed himself...’ Judging by correspondence on file linked to this letter that is dated August 1915 it is probable that this letter too was written around that time.

At the moment this is the only reference I can find that links a photograph of him appearing in German press. That is not to say that they used the particular photograph we are referring to nor might it be the only time the image was used. In theory, it could have been used earlier, say, shortly after capture or en-route to Torgau but as a picture that showed more prisoners than just Yate alone. That it was used to accompany news of his escape and re-capture might explain it being cropped to just show him. From that source it could have been used much later in a British publication - possibly post war. I am still of the feeling that they wouldn't have wanted to show a British officer subdued by his captors to the British public during the war.

Seaforths noted there was something reported in the German press with a photo that was taken after he was recaptured making an escape attempt.?

SS - You seem to be of the opinion that he made an earlier escape that might have had him captured on camera resulting in the photograph we are collectively studying. I am aware that we are all looking at various sources we have to hand; Martin with the diaries and histories, myself with his file etc. In effect we are all bringing what we have to the table and are willing to share. Do you have that 'first' escape from a reliable source? It would be so much appreciated by the rest of us if you do and felt you could share it.

Yes sorry Seaforths if I seem distracted, I am not trying to avoid your questions, but I do have to sleep ... occasionally.! I am also trying to fit all this in around the rest of my life.

No I have no further information at all about how the photo was first published. I am only going on the reference you posted above from the letter. And I may have misunderstood.

I guess I am trying to 'cut to the chase' here if you know what I mean. By using the small amount we do know, and then plugging in my theory, I am hoping for a breakthrough here.

I am now satisfied that the the photo was taken at Fort Zinna, so that matches with what you mentioned above. The white walls in the background match with the building windows.

Cheers, S>S

[seaforths]

Yes sorry Seaforths if I seem distracted, I am not trying to avoid your questions, but I do have to sleep ... occasionally.! I am also trying to fit all this in around the rest of my life.

No I have no further information at all about how the photo was first published. I am only going on the reference you posted above from the letter. And I may have misunderstood.

I guess I am trying to 'cut to the chase' here if you know what I mean. By using the small amount we do know, and then plugging in my theory, I am hoping for a breakthrough here.

I am now satisfied that the the photo was taken at Fort Zinna, so that matches with what you mentioned above. The white walls in the background match with the building windows.

Cheers, S>S

Sorry yes, sounds like crossed wires. He escaped and was recaptured in the civilian attire. He was never taken back to Torgau. Therefore the photograph could not have been taken on his recapture in that instance. However, it was it seems shown alongside an article about his escape and recapture.

I'm not sure if was posted in this thread or one of the other two running on him but that is why there is so much controversy surrounding his death. All that was returned to Torgau was his blood-soaked clothing. None of the British saw his body and I believe an RAMC officer and a Padre in particular asked to be taken to see his body. The Germans refused on the grounds they couldn't guarantee their safety if they took them out of the camp. He was given a proper burial on private land. I believe the German land owner paid for his grave and for the upkeep of his grave at his own expense and believed him to have been a brave, gallant man.

I am as open to your suggestion that the photograph could have been taken at Fort Zinna as anywhere else. I have some information somewhere about the place I will try to get it translated and if it helps to prove the location, I will post it. It is a shame that the letter did not mention in which paper Mrs Yate saw the article and photograph. I don't know who her source was in Germany that was sending her information in 1915 but I very much doubt it would have been anyone local to the Torgau area. Major Yate's mother was German - a likely source for her to seek help from would be relatives from that side of his family.

So, just a wild guess here but the Germans would probably want to give such a photograph maximum coverage within Germany and as we have found, the wider world. Therefore, would not German national rather than local papers be a more likely place to find it? Sorry I'm not much help with my linguistic limitations. I was more than chuffed I could understand the French article in the link Trajan posted before I got to the English translation.

Yes SS you are quite right we do have lives and a hefty time zone I see, separating posts

[Muerrisch]

The Fort Zinna attribution of the photo is very optimistic. In my fairly broad experience [13 years in Germany] one German fort/ kaserne interior looks much like another!

No jury would convict on the evidence so far!

[seaforths]

The Fort Zinna attribution of the photo is very optimistic. In my fairly broad experience [13 years in Germany] one German fort/ kaserne interior looks much like another!

No jury would convict on the evidence so far!

Thank you for pointing that out Grumpy. You are of course correct. It is rather like saying it was taken at a farm house at Le Catea because it has been described as having a cobbled yard. The whitewashed walls alone are not exactly compelling evidence. I would want to see more evidence and even then, I would not be entirely satisfied and at the very best it was a strong belief rather than a certainty.

[SiegeGunner]

The Fort Zinna attribution of the photo is very optimistic.

I have to agree with Grumpy. I don't have the mathematical skills to work out the relative scales, but my 'eye' tells me that if the wall in the background was one of the white walls at Fort Zinna shown in the other photo, we would see at least part of one or more of the other windows.

[trajan]

Well, this is what that newspaper reported - transcript and approximate translation.

(Selbstmord eines englische Majors.) Wie bereits gemeldet, ist vor einigen Tagen der englische Major Charles Alice Yate, der von den deutschen Truppen gefangen genommen wurde, geflüchtet. Wie nun berichtet wird, hat Major Jäte Selbstmord verübt. Unter den Arbeitern, die sich auf einer bei Torgau gelegenen Zuckerfabrik zur Rübeukampagne anmelden wollten, fiel ein hochgewachsener Mann auf, zu dessen schäbiger Kleidung sein übriges Äußeres nicht zu passen schien. Der Zucker-fabrikdirektor hielt den Freunden an und forschte ihn aus. Da die Antworten des Mannes seinen Verdacht bestätigen, ließ er ihn durch Arbeiter untersuchen. Man nahm ihm dabei eine Handtasche ab, die eine Menge Aufzeichnungen in englischer Sprache enthielt. Während man noch die Papiere prüfte, zog der Fremde blitzschnell ein Rasiermesser hervor und durchschnitt sich die Kehle. Er verblutete in wenigen Minuten. Der Fremde war der Major Charles Alice Yate.

"(Suicide of an English major.) As already reported, a few days ago the English Major Charles Alice Yate, who was captured by German troops, escaped. As we will now report, Major Yate has committed suicide. Among the workers who were waiting to register for a beet-picking campaign near a sugar factory at Torgau, a tall man whose shabby clothing did not seem to fit him, stood out [from the rest]. The sugar-factory’s director called his friends to establish who he was. Since the man's answers seemed to confirm his suspicions [as to his identity] he had him searched by his workers. They took from him there a handbag that contained a lot of records in English. While they were examining the papers the stranger quickly pulled out a razor and cut his throat. He bled to death in minutes. The stranger was Major Charles Alice Yate."

[shippingsteel]

Thanks for that nice lead in Grumpy.! I was going to post this anyway, but you have provided me with the perfect invitation.! (Sorry for the poor quality, period postcard)

I have illustrated below where I believe the photo is taken. I went through hundreds of photos on the net and detailed plans of the fort and building drawings to get to here.

So as you can see (just) the postcard is titled "Torgau - Fort Zinna" and it is Feldpost marked with 1916 on the back, so very much period. I have enlarged and cropped.

This Fort has a very long history with most buildings dating back to the Napoleonic era. The Rotunda building itself is a very unique shape, being of semi circular design.

All these earlier period buildings had the white walls, and have those square shaped windows for each room, placed quite close together. (As I posted in the photo above)

We can see in the background of the Yate photo the apparent ‘doorway’. From the building drawing this is actually a window and is about shoulder height on those men.

The interesting part is that the Rotunda building comes to a corner about 1/3 into the photo and then begins to slowly fade out, as its semi-circular shape bends back away.

From all the information that I saw and the drawings and angles of the building, I was satisfied to make this conclusion. But it’s only an opinion and I have nothing to prove.

Cheers, S>S

[trajan]

Well, it seems my last post has gone astray.

... I would have put him taller from the photograph but it indicates how pictures can be deceiving.

I would doubt that the official German record would be substantially wrong, so 1.73 or so could well be right for Yate's height.

A quick check is possible, though, thanks to the rifle and bayonet on the left of Yate. I think the approximate height of the Gew. 88 with the short 71/84 bayonet fixed, is about 1.50 m. - SS would you agree? (knowing you you probably have one with bayonet attached hanging on the wall! ). That soldier is slightly behind Yate, and as we see it the tip of the bayonet is about the same height as Yate's shoulder, so he was at least 1.50 to the shoulder, and so he is between 1.70-1.80 m.

Thanks to that rifle and bayonet, though, we can get a rough idea of the height of the unteroffozier standing in full view on the left. His moustache is on a line with the tip of the bayonet, so that's about 1.50 there, plus let's allow about another 10 cm (half the length of the bayonet) from his upper lip to the top of his cap, and so that's 1.60 m. or so. Yate is standing in the foreground, but not substantially so, and I would reckon from this that he is about 1.75 m. high, perhaps a bit more, but certainly not exceptionally so.

Happy to be corrected on any of this - done quickly at desk while eating lunch!

Trajan

PS: A PM certainly seems to have gone missing! And so quite possibly a post as well...

[seaforths]

Well, this is what that newspaper reported - transcript and approximate translation.

(Selbstmord eines englische Majors.) Wie bereits gemeldet, ist vor einigen Tagen der englische Major Charles Alice Yate, der von den deutschen Truppen gefangen genommen wurde, geflüchtet. Wie nun berichtet wird, hat Major Jäte Selbstmord verübt. Unter den Arbeitern, die sich auf einer bei Torgau gelegenen Zuckerfabrik zur Rübeukampagne anmelden wollten, fiel ein hochgewachsener Mann auf, zu dessen schäbiger Kleidung sein übriges Äußeres nicht zu passen schien. Der Zucker-fabrikdirektor hielt den Freunden an und forschte ihn aus. Da die Antworten des Mannes seinen Verdacht bestätigen, ließ er ihn durch Arbeiter untersuchen. Man nahm ihm dabei eine Handtasche ab, die eine Menge Aufzeichnungen in englischer Sprache enthielt. Während man noch die Papiere prüfte, zog der Fremde blitzschnell ein Rasiermesser hervor und durchschnitt sich die Kehle. Er verblutete in wenigen Minuten. Der Fremde war der Major Charles Alice Yate.

"(Suicide of an English majors.) As already reported, a few days ago the English Major Charles Alice Yate, who was captured by German troops, escaped. As will now report, Major Yate has committed suicide. Among the workers who were waiting to register for a beet-picking campaign near a sugar factory at Torgau, a tall man whose shabby clothing did not seem to fit him, stood out [from the rest]. The sugar-factory’s director called his friends to establish who he was. Since the man's answers seemed to confirm his suspicions [as to his identity] he had his searched by his workers. They took from him there a handbag that contained a lot of records in English. While they were examining the papers the stranger quickly pulled out a razor and cut his throat. He bled to death in minutes. The stranger was Major Charles Alice Yate."

That's it! The first line 'As already reported , a few days ago...' an indication that his capture was reported a few days previously, possibly with a photograph? This am guessing is referring to his capture at Le Catea and not to any previous escape attempt.

Incidentally, I posted earlier that I doubted it was a farm house at Le Catea because of what looks to be an archway in the photograph. I was hoping that someone might contradict my post. I am open to suggestions regarding the location of the photograph it is finding the evidence to support suggestions which is going to be difficult. However, Trajan is coming close to probably the first appearances of the photograph in the press.

[seaforths]

That's it! The first line 'As already reported , a few days ago...' an indication that his capture was reported a few days previously, possibly with a photograph? This am guessing is referring to his capture at Le Catea and not to any previous escape attempt.

Incidentally, I posted earlier that I doubted it was a farm house at Le Catea because of what looks to be an archway in the photograph. I was hoping that someone might contradict my post. I am open to suggestions regarding the location of the photograph it is finding the evidence to support suggestions which is going to be difficult. However, Trajan is coming close to probably the first appearances of the photograph in the press.

Edit: Apologies. I had to cease writing my response part way through to deal with a site survey chap and returned, completed and posted. Therefore missing the reply prompts that pop up when typing. I will look at the detailed plan to see if it adds any further flesh to what has been posted. My linguistic skills might let me down but I'm sure if I post, someone will be able to translate. It also means I need to get to my PC. There could be a delay...

[trajan]

Seaforths, I'm not certain that the Laibacher Zeitung did have photographs but I'll try and find out. I guess shippingsteel has already had a go searching for the Torgauer newspapers but I have not been able to find if they have an on-line archive or not. Incidentally, just to save a lot of searching, and knowing that you (and seaforth78) probably have the answer to hand - what date did Yate escape?

[SiegeGunner]

That's it! The first line 'As already reported , a few days ago...' an indication that his capture was reported a few days previously, possibly with a photograph? This am guessing is referring to his capture at Le Catea and not to any previous escape attempt.

'As already reported' refers to an earlier report of his escape, not of his capture.

In the same piece, I think there is a mistake in 'Der Zucker-fabrikdirektor hielt den Freunden an und forschte ihn aus', and it should be 'den Fremden', not 'den Freunden', so it should be translated as 'The sugar factory manager stopped the stranger and questioned him'.

As regards S>S's latest photo of Fort Zinna, I'm afraid I can't agree with his identification of the 'location of the photo', as there are definitely more openings in the wall that ought to be visible if the photo of Yate with the German soldiers had been taken there.

[seaforths]

Seaforths, I'm not certain that the Laibacher Zeitung did have photographs but I'll try and find out. I guess shippingsteel has already had a go searching for the Torgauer newspapers but I have not been able to find if they have an on-line archive or not. Incidentally, just to save a lot of searching, and knowing that you (and seaforth78) probably have the answer to hand - what date did Yate escape?

'As already reported' refers to an earlier report of his escape, not of his capture.

In the same piece, I think there is a mistake in 'Der Zucker-fabrikdirektor hielt den Freunden an und forschte ihn aus', and it should be 'den Fremden', not 'den Freunden', so it should be translated as 'The sugar factory manager stopped the stranger and questioned him'.

As regards S>S's latest photo of Fort Zinna, I'm afraid I can't agree with his identification of the 'location of the photo', as there are definitely more openings in the wall that ought to be visible if the photo of Yate with the German soldiers had been taken there.

SG I noticed that single window too but I am willing to investigate it a little further if only to eliminate it. SS I suspect is unbudgeable and I would go as far as to suggest that if he can provide further information to support his theory he will so no bad thing. As I said earlier, at the moment, I am more receptive to suggestions that might refute or prove the issue. I am also of the opinion that due to the lack of clarity in the image, it might not necessarily be whitewashed it could be naturally a very light stone.

Trajan in response to both you and SG here is the information regarding his escape, apprehension (sugar factory incident). I have posted more than requested because it gives background to other things that have arisen in the thread and shows for example why the Shropshire newspapers might have ran stories on him then and now.

Major C.A.L. Yate was born: In Ludwigslust March 14th 1872. Baptised in Lugwigslust April 4th 1872.

Name and Profession of father: George Edward Yate, Vicar of Madeley near Wellington, in Shropshire.

Escape: According to Breen’s statement I quote the following:

‘Major Yate arrived in Torgau on the 8th September from Magdeburg, accompanied by Captain Roche and Lieut. Hardy, Connaught Rangers...About 16th September two German officers arrived from Berlin and interviewed him privately in the Commandant’s office...the German Officers had arranged to interview him afresh on Monday...On 18th September about 8pm, Captain Roche, (who had promised to help) Major Yate and I met and found that conditions were unsatisfactory, owing to the position of the inner sentry. On the 19th at the same hour, the weather and sentry positions were better. Major Yate was helped over the great wall and let down into the moat by Captain Roche and myself. Everything worked perfectly, the inner sentry passed us in the dark about two paces away, without observing anything. During the night we listened but heard no shot fired for at least five hours after his departure...All British Officers were removed to Burg on 24th November 1914, in order to share quarters with French and Russian Officers...’

Died: According to Breen's post-war investigations a statement was given by the land owner. He had been summoned by the director/manager of the Sugar Factory who had been on his bicycle on the road between 10.00 and 11.00 a.m. on Sunday September 20th 1914. The director/ manager also made a statement. Quoting his statement: ‘...Meanwhile the peasants had removed the mans cloak, and were proceeding to unfasten rather roughly a haversack, which he had fastened to his back by cross straps, when he suddenly took a razor from the inner pocked of his vest...’ That is as accurate as I can get to the date and time of his death.

Edit: If he arrived at Torgau with two other officers, might one not expect to see them also in the photograph if it was taken at on arrival at Torgau? - just a thought. And sorry SG - I am muddling my escapes, captures and re-captures!

[trajan]

In the same piece, I think there is a mistake in 'Der Zucker-fabrikdirektor hielt den Freunden an und forschte ihn aus', and it should be 'den Fremden', not 'den Freunden', so it should be translated as 'The sugar factory manager stopped the stranger and questioned him'.

Siege, you are absolutely spot-on. The paper uses one of those (to me) odd (and local?) variations of type-script. I thought I might be wrong - nice to know that was as it makes more sense now!

[seaforth78]

As has been noted previously, it seems highly improbable that Yate would be sent all the way to Fort Zinna in full kit, sans, sword and revolver with a pair of binoculars in hand! I'm with Siege Gunner on this. I wonder on what basis is SS basing his reasoning? Just on the mere fact of the wall openings? At any rate, the Germans would have stripped him well before entry into Germany.

Trajan, Seaforths could you tell you by PM on my recent absence on this thread, sorry for being MIA. Speaking of missing PM's!

[trajan]

About 16th September two German officers arrived from Berlin and interviewed him privately in the Commandant’s office...the German Officers had arranged to interview him afresh on Monday...

...Edit: If he arrived at Torgau with two other officers, might one not expect to see them also in the photograph if it was taken at on arrival at Torgau? - just a thought. And sorry SG - I am muddling my escapes, captures and re-captures!

That intro explains much to me about some (one?) of your earlier posts which I obviously had not digested properly when read - that the Germans certainly knew who Yate was, and that they believed he had some form of intelligence value and so required detailed questioning be men sent from Berlin. It is a pity that the account doesn't say their rank or unit.

That edit is a very good point! If only we could find out where the original was first published!

Trajan

Trajan... my recent absence on this thread, sorry for being MIA. Speaking of missing PM's!

I had word thereof! Welcome back!

[Muerrisch]

#189 shows a cobbled- type courtyard rather poorly, but the arrangement of the stones is not geometric, rather rippled .

The Yate photo clearly shows carefully laid paving bricks.

A better shot of the detail of #189 would be interesting.

And just a thought about the English language OP photo and caption. Looks remarkable like the style of The War Illustrated: I have a very nearly complete set in the attic if anyone thinks it worth checking.

[seaforth78]

I had word thereof! Welcome back!

Splendid!

[trajan]

And just a thought about the English language OP photo and caption. Looks remarkable like the style of The War Illustrated: I have a very nearly complete set in the attic if anyone thinks it worth checking.

Our next door neighbour when I was a nipper had the full set - I wonder what happened to them? But, Grumpy, that is a good pointer and if they are not to hard to get hold of, then as we have a date for his VC being gazetted, and that is mentioned in the caption, an issue round about then or shortly after could well be worth peeping into, while the indication in the caption that he was still thought to be alive suggests a date before news of his death near Torgau was public knowledge.

[seaforths]

#189 shows a cobbled- type courtyard rather poorly, but the arrangement of the stones is not geometric, rather rippled .

The Yate photo clearly shows carefully laid paving bricks.

A better shot of the detail of #189 would be interesting.

And just a thought about the English language OP photo and caption. Looks remarkable like the style of The War Illustrated: I have a very nearly complete set in the attic if anyone thinks it worth checking.

I was trying to post earlier but invisionzone crashed on me taking the other websites I had open with it. From what I can on see on the web, there seems to have been two camps being used at Torgau to detain POWs, Fort Zinna being one of them also more than one entrance/exit. I had also managed to find the direction and distance to Torgau railway station. My thoughts being that given the circumstances and extreme abuse from the civilian population, they would have taken them in by the quickest route. I am back on the iPad and will pick up on that again this evening and try to locate the pages I had open.

I too noticed the difference in the cobbles but put it down to some areas being older than others and so paved at different times using different methods. It could equally be a difference of methods and materials used between countries.

Just an observation. Would not the guards at Torgau have been Saxon? Mostly recruited locally/reservists fit to serve but not to fight at the front.

[trajan]

Hang about, it gets more and more mysterious! Or have I missed something earlier (we are on over 200 psots on this thread!)?

As it was known that Yate was dead 2 months before the VC award was gazetted (DOD September, Gazetted November), that makes the photograph caption really odd! "Happily, it was stated later that he had not died of his wounds, as first reported"...

Whatever, we still have a date range for Grumpy to search for - after the 26th(?) November 1914

Trajan

[Muerrisch]

Not today ............. busy. The Illustrated series was WELL behind the drag curve in its news ...... I am guessing Christmas 1914 about likely date. Will try tomorrow.