seaforths Posted 19 May , 2014 Share Posted 19 May , 2014 Well, the Norwegian article certainly didn't come through British sources that really caught the Brits on the hop and they wanted a denial issued pronto (on dum dum bullets). As I said earlier SS, the Germans were inconsistent on their handling of prisoners. The Padre's lot were allowed to keep everything except knives. Let us not forget, Major Yate got a letter out to his wife, something the others didn't get to do for quite some time. I see no reason why he wasn't allowed to keep his kit. Reasoning for that, he might have had more lenient guards as the padre's lot did or, he might have been totally uncooperative they were hardly going to shoot him because that's what he wanted. In fact, as I recall, when Bond was reunited with him at Torgau he seemed to have added to it a little with some civilian clothes he had managed to steal en-route and stash away. My best guess at the moment...taken after he was removed from the battlefield to another area Le Cateau, Cambrai or Mons. The Brits that were captured at Landrecies that were forced to march to Mons had been in the process of taking over the area from the French so French prisoners were captured there...are we still of the opinion those might be French behind him in the photo? I'm going through a French newspaper at the moment no photos unfortunately but they are publishing some British casualties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforths Posted 19 May , 2014 Share Posted 19 May , 2014 ...PS: I'll try and trawl the German paper link tomorrow - but might have to wait until Wednesday when technically I have a free day! If it is the link I posted earlier, I've worked my way through them all tonight. Quite a few of them didn't give any coverage for 1914 at all but I checked all the others out - nothing doing. I will look for another French or German newspaper archive tomorrow - the hour is getting late... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 20 May , 2014 Share Posted 20 May , 2014 Major Yate, würden Sie bitte hier Schritt in die Umkleidekabine zu entkleiden und freundlich zu ersetzen Ihrem Kit, so dass wir ein Gruppenfoto von Ihnen Schadenfreude über Ihre Aufnahme bitte? Ah, indeed - but we need the Bayerisches equivalent! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 20 May , 2014 Share Posted 20 May , 2014 father an MP? Nah! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforth78 Posted 20 May , 2014 Share Posted 20 May , 2014 Yate's cousin, Colonel Sir Charles Yate Bt was.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforths Posted 20 May , 2014 Share Posted 20 May , 2014 father an MP? Nah! Grumpy, I'm shocked! I thought the press were always right! Well, as I possibly posted earlier, his father was a minister at Madeley, Shropshire. However I believe they are referring to his cousin. I'm not on the laptop. Maybe S78 could clarify? SS - as an illustration of inconsistencies at capture. Another writing his memoirs of his capture (artillery officer). They were surrounded by Germans a German officer stepped forward and saluted. They saluted back, the German bowed, they all bowed to each other. Then his subaltern was searched. They emptied and checked his ammunition from his revolver. They returned all of his personal property to him...the souvenir hunters of the guard, in the absence of their officer seemed to have taken things from them but the subaltern apparently a little later had the satisfaction of retrieving his glasses from around the neck of one of the German guards who marched alongside him. Returning to the photograph - do you think, given the mood of Major Yate and his temperament, he would be obliging enough to re-enact his capture in a staged setting? I really, try as I might, cannot except that theory. Put it this way, if he refused to cooperate, what was the worst they would do? Shoot him? But he wanted that anyway. I could have this wrong, please someone correct me if so but I get the impression he had attracted so much attention by his actions at capture that rather than threatening to shoot him etc. they very much wanted to keep him alive if possible, at least long enough to check him out and they managed to do that long enough for him to have visitors from the boys in Berlin, just before his escape from Torgau. If, I'm not mistaken, he was a man who very much wanted to control his own destiny. He wanted to be shot as a soldier, not as a spy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforths Posted 20 May , 2014 Share Posted 20 May , 2014 There is also something else. On his file are comments from the Kommandant at Torgau. The way it reads, is as though the information has come from Bond but I am not sure sure now, as I cannot find anything from Bond that corroborates it. The first thing which I believe I have mentioned before is that he tried to escape from the train on the way to Torgau. The other remark is that he tried to shoot himself in the head at capture before he was disarmed. Those comments might turn out to be attributed to his French Camarade, Boucier. Unfortunately, I have yet to get the letter translation back. There is one thing that he feared and which the Germans would not know. He feared torture, beating and a slow, agonising death. I am of the belief that the Japanese culture had a very strong influence on him and his actions at capture. To be taken prisoner alive to him, was as good as a mortal sin. To him, I believe, he had two options, escape or death. My knowledge of the Japanese culture is scant but I do know that being taken prisoner was dishonourable - better to either be killed by the enemy or kill oneself - so an honourable death. If they threatened to kill him, I believe he would have welcomed it. Read this and my previous post SS - surely you must realise that it is hugely unlikely that he would have allowed them to stage a photograph at another location? I have already established the presence of French prisoners in the area so that cannot be used to corroborate your theory. The evidence for the photograph being taken not immediately after capture but certainly within a short time afterwards once they had taken him to another location, is far too compelling. It is trying to establish the location that is challenging. Tracking down the photograph in either a German or French newspaper might establish the location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 20 May , 2014 Share Posted 20 May , 2014 Would the experts who have the FACTS at their disposal please write a time-line of events and evidence ........ FACTS not surmise, e.g. date of capture, LG gazetting VC, date of death, date of notification of death, arrival at Torgau etc PLEASE! Incidentally the unit was very unusual in that it had a total of three substantive majors, one as 2 i/c and two as company commanders. It was theoretically possible to get along with one major only,so the unit was well experienced in terms of seniors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforths Posted 20 May , 2014 Share Posted 20 May , 2014 Yate's cousin, Colonel Sir Charles Yate Bt was.. S78 I seem to have been suffering from a significant time lag between clicking the reply button to my post actually appearing on the Forum. I have no idea why this has been happening during the past few days. Suffice to say, it is becoming very frustrating indeed. In this case the lag was so significant that you clarified before I even asked! Eeesh I feel as though some of my posts are going via someone else before they arrive at their destination... Would the experts who have the FACTS at their disposal please write a time-line of events and evidence ........ FACTS not surmise, e.g. date of capture, LG gazetting VC, date of death, date of notification of death, arrival at Torgau etc PLEASE! Incidentally the unit was very unusual in that it had a total of three substantive majors, one as 2 i/c and two as company commanders. It was theoretically possible to get along with one major only,so the unit was well experienced in terms of seniors. I will endeavour to do this and post although when my post will actually make an appearance...the last time lapse was quite significant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 20 May , 2014 Share Posted 20 May , 2014 I would be most grateful: the thread is becoming, shall we say, difficult to follow! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforths Posted 20 May , 2014 Share Posted 20 May , 2014 I would be most grateful: the thread is becoming, shall we say, difficult to follow! Captured: 26 August 1914 Le Cateau. Arrived Torgau via numerous other headquarters, including Magdeburg: 5 or 8 September 1914. (Depending on whose account you read). Interviewed by the men from Berlin: 16 September. Aborted escape attempt from Torgau: 18 September 1914. Successful escape from Torgau: 19 September 1914. Died: 20 September 1914. Buried 24 September 1914. No British officer saw his body. Gazetted VC: 24 November 1914. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforths Posted 20 May , 2014 Share Posted 20 May , 2014 As there has also been some reference to him being a spy I wonder if S78 might be able to add something to the front of my previous regarding: Boer War service. British Attache to Russio-Japanese war Service as a British military observer in Germany pre-war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 20 May , 2014 Share Posted 20 May , 2014 Thank you ......... to which we need to add eventually: death notified to widow date first "photo" with or without "caption" appeared date when photo referred to I shall continue to sniff around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 20 May , 2014 Share Posted 20 May , 2014 The newspaper article that mentioned the photo of him in an earlier article was dated Nov 28th. Given the caption paraphrased the VC citation (dated 25th Nov) this would in theory narrow the publication date of the photo to between 25th and 27th Nov 1914. The haystack is a lot smaller. I would also add that one of the images shows a very distinctive border to the photo here This border might help narrow down the publication. Apologies if this has already been stated. MG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 20 May , 2014 Share Posted 20 May , 2014 Good one Martin, and yes, that was staring me in the face. Thank you. But the newspaper was USA, was it not, which makes the reaction time very rapid indeed. I will go back and check the newspaper. Yes, Richmond Virginia, not Yorks or indeed Surrey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 20 May , 2014 Share Posted 20 May , 2014 But the Richmond article quotes the Germans as inferring he was still alive on 22nd September? Has anyone seen a death certificate please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 20 May , 2014 Share Posted 20 May , 2014 Hi Martin and Seaforths, My pleasure Martin and I am glad that my copy of Bond's book seems to have redirected this thread back to it belonged. I am struggling to keep up with the huge amount of pertinent information coming out and I only wish I had this stuff when my essay went out to the publishers a month ago. A HUGE thanks to Seaforths, who has herocally poured heart and soul into this thread, I can only sit back, read and learn. Seaforth78, you did a valuable job there, giving us access to the copy of Bond, and yes, nice to have the thread back on line, and thanks also gallant seaforths on dealing with it! OK, we are bound to disagree on those points that still demand clarification, but now the Torgau angle is well out of the way that does help! Trajan (Chorus of "I say Bavarian, you say maybe, / I say VI Army, you say maybe, / Bavarian, whatever,/ VI Army, whoever, we'll get it sorted out!") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 20 May , 2014 Share Posted 20 May , 2014 Yate's cousin, Colonel Sir Charles Yate Bt was.. Is he the medical Yate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforths Posted 20 May , 2014 Share Posted 20 May , 2014 I can give the 1st date when I get back to my laptop. Also, I might need to find dates for and add that he was reported killed in action and wounded in action when in fact he was alive at that time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted 20 May , 2014 Share Posted 20 May , 2014 Good one Martin, and yes, that was staring me in the face. Thank you. But the newspaper was USA, was it not, which makes the reaction time very rapid indeed. I will go back and check the newspaper. Yes, Richmond Virginia, not Yorks or indeed Surrey. It might have been syndicated. So it does not necessarily have to be in a US newspaper. VC winner died in captivity might be of interest to a number of newspapers and picked up in syndicated circles. We know it is English language and probably 25-27th Nov 1914 and we know the image has a distinctive border. I suspect with this a seasoned newspaper archivist will nail the publication within 10 mins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 20 May , 2014 Share Posted 20 May , 2014 the Forum has a selection of medical doctors, at least one priest, a handful of bell-ringers, a weatherman but where is the newspaper archivist when you want him/her? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 20 May , 2014 Share Posted 20 May , 2014 S78 I seem to have been suffering from a significant time lag between clicking the reply button to my post actually appearing on the Forum. I have no idea why this has been happening during the past few days. Suffice to say, it is becoming very frustrating indeed. In this case the lag was so significant that you clarified before I even asked! Eeesh I feel as though some of my posts are going via someone else before they arrive at their destination... I was replying to this and my reply just disappeared! Second attempt... Last night, 2300 or so my time, I did a last minute e-mail check and saw notifications of new replies to the Yate thread sometime after I had logged of from GWF. When I looked at the notifications before going to bed - thinking they were new - they were of threads I had viewed at least 30 minutes earlier, and they seemed to be out of sequential time order... I can only guess that it's being in the wilds of Turkey that causes this problem in my case... EDIT: Just remembered - when I tried to connect to GWF last night after getting these notifications I couldn't do so, but could get other web-sites I use... There again, the wifey here is bad... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforths Posted 20 May , 2014 Share Posted 20 May , 2014 But the Richmond article quotes the Germans as inferring he was still alive on 22nd September? Has anyone seen a death certificate please? Yes but there are discrepancies. As he was originally killed in action a death certificate was sought I believe at that time (I would have to check the file) his wife contended the issue having received a letter from him that he dated dated 2 September (she was in Switzerland). When he did actually die, the release of the death certificate was postponed while the widow's pension challenge was occurring. At one point, they were even suggesting how the death cert should be worded regarding cause of death so that she might get the higher pension rate. Sorry if this sounds complicated but that's because it was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 20 May , 2014 Share Posted 20 May , 2014 Oh! I can do complicated! It is 'simple' that is complicated for me. Time to eat, I think, brain is running down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 20 May , 2014 Share Posted 20 May , 2014 The newspaper article that mentioned the photo of him in an earlier article was dated Nov 28th. Given the caption paraphrased the VC citation (dated 25th Nov) this would in theory narrow the publication date of the photo to between 25th and 27th Nov 1914. The haystack is a lot smaller. There is still this issue about that paper and that of the infamous photograph, both post-gazette of the VC, not knowing that he was by then almost a whole month dead... Doubtless the Seaforthers' will enlighten us on when the official annoucement of his death was made? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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