Capture of Major Yate

[shippingsteel]

I too have also been busy doing research on this issue from my side of the picture, the best I can at least, what with time constraints and other commitments, etc.

I have gone through all the Order of Battle listings for all the Bavarian units on the register as at August/September 1914 and illustrated in the spreadsheet below.

The colour coding demonstrates the intense concentration of the Bavarian units in the 6th Army (with some closeby in the 5th and 7th Army) all in Alsace/Lorraine.

As I have stated previously there are NO Bavarian units present in the 1st Army, or in their entire "line of communication" as support troops, at this time of the war.

Of particular interest are the units shown in the blue colour, as these are units independent of the Bavarian Army, garrisoned as Reserves in the border fortresses.

These units are combined with other Prussian units to form the Central Reserve, which are not under Bavarian control, and they were mobilised as Prussian units.

So we have 4 regiments of Bavarian Reserve troops stationed in Fortress Strassburg, under control of the central Prussian authority, freed up on the 17th August.

These Fortress Reserve units were mobilised as the 30th Reserve Division (Prussian not Bavarian) and at the time were fully integrated into the Prussian system.

Cheers, S>S

[seaforths]

Nah!

Looks more like these to me - looks like you forgot to find ones with bands on (indicates NCO?):

Ok hands up if you think mine are best. Pick me! Pick me! Pick me!

[seaforth78]

And the winner is.......Seaforths with the bands!

[seaforths]

And the winner is.......Seaforths with the bands!

I thank you - Did you see my previous on the sword?

I cannot help but think that the photograph is of limited value regarding the uniforms and I'm not sure it doesn't cloud the issue by trying to use the uniforms to pin him to an exact location.

When SS acknowledges that he can actually see my posts, I will address his previous points on Monsieur Boucier's letter and his Bavarian/Prussian theory.

Meanwhile, yesterday, I began to produce a movement timeline of a number of officers captured at around the same as Major Yate. It shows their movements from battlefield to Torgau. Once completed (hopefully today), I will post the accounts of their movements at the front end. From the battlefield to entraining. It makes interesting reading and there is information within that indicates that Major Yate was not the only one to get information out to friends and family. I will post more on how this was achieved later.

[seaforth78]

Yes thanks for that. Very good documentary evidence about an officer and his sword. I filed that one alright!

I look forward to seeing the detailed movement timeline tomorrow. I just got back and will write you fully tomorrow a PM.

S78

[Phil Evans]

Looking forward to the timeline of locations. It is a bit of a lottery at the moment, given the distance he travelled.

In the meantime, possible evidence of a Barvarian in Liege on, or about 27th August, if it is of any use.

[seaforths]

Looking forward to the timeline of locations. It is a bit of a lottery at the moment, given the distance he travelled.

In the meantime, possible evidence of a Barvarian in Liege on, or about 27th August, if it is of any use.

Liege to Heroldsberg 27.08.14.jpg

Great find Phil! Thanks!

I will post more but indications of possibly Prussian and unknown mixed regiment in the Le Cateau/Cambrai area at the back end August-beginning September. I will post the lot when finished. I have one more account to type and am just double checking instances of officers getting letters and notes out before arriving at Torgau. So will be early evening when I post (post Sunday dinner)

[seaforths]

This is quite a lot of information to read and digest. It is the start of a time line for a number of officers captured around the area of Le Cateau in the last week of August 1914. I will post the information first and I will post it as a table within a word document at the end of the post:


Maj. Yate
2 KOYLI.
Captured 26 Aug.
Near Le Catea.
Last seen remonstrating with a German officer and removed from the battlefield by car in the area of Le Cateau.


Lt. Col. Bond
2 KOYLI.
Captured 26 Aug.
Near Le Cateau.
‘Stood in a little column of captives in the main street of Le Cateau in the evening, surrounded by soldiers who constituted our guard...The house where the prisoners were collected was the finest house in the street...There were also in the house an old butler and cook...an officer I knew being carried in, apparently in a dying condition...Later...a French priest was brought in at the request of the wounded man...Never in my life had I been so untrammelled by possessions of any kind. With nothing but the clothes I stood up in – for even my handkerchief...had been taken from me on the battlefield. ..sometimes the meals that were prepared for us were not always served...sometimes consumed entirely by the guard...workrooms and warehouses across the garden meanwhile were congested with wounded soldiers...Two officers of the Suffolk regiment, who spoke German...were given permission to go to the temporary hospital...No other prisoners were permitted to go to help them...Through mediation of the French butler a few necessities, such as razors, soap and towels were purchased from a shop in town...The German troops who had occupied the town during the night were to be seen marching out to take the road and follow up our forces...’ Then visited by two German Staff Officers: ‘ ...they begged us not to attempt any escape and not to be insubordinate to the guard, either of which might jeopardise the lives of the lot...Down the white ribbon of the road leading from Le Cateau to Cambrai marched a grim little column of men. At their head rode a young subaltern of a Prussian Guards regiment...The German escort, with bayonets fixed and no great outward show of discipline, swung along in front, on either flank and in the rear of prisoners...Some of the prisoners’ guards, who had been daily changed when in Le Cateau, had at first been almost kindly but this day the escort were grim and uncompromisingly - grimmer...The young officer in charge, who belonged to a different regiment to the soldiers, rode on some distance ahead...At length Cambrai...was reached...Quickly the prisoners realised that they were now at the mercy of their escort and camp-followers...At last after waiting for hours, as it seemed, the officer in charge of the escort appeared with a superior officer and handed over his charge...during the long wait before the train moved out. Contingents of French prisoners continued to arrive...’

Letters and correspondence: ‘...Entered the big station at Brussels, where some of the officers managed to communicate their names on slips of paper (the recipients appeared later to have found a channel by which the names were communicated to their friends in England)...’
‘...Lists of prisoners had been dropped from the windows of the trains in passing through Belgium, in the hope that some might fall into friendly hands and be reported to relations at home, and other stratagems had been resorted to in order to communicate with England...through Messrs Cox & Co.’


Lt. Le Grand
Intelligence Corps.
Captured 27 Aug.
Near Fresnoy.
‘...conveyed in a wagon (after being interrogated by two German colonels who treated me courteously) to a church at Le Cateau. All my kit was taken except what I was actually wearing. There were about 150 English soldiers in this church, who were not allowed out more than 5 yards from the porch ...We were fed from a German field kitchen, and the officers were allowed out under escort to buy clothing, soap, &c...We were marched to Cambrai on the 31st and entrained there. The German soldiers (chiefly transport drivers) were very insulted and frequently spat at us...’


Maj. Peebles
1 Suffolk Regt.
Captured 26 Aug.
Near Le Cateau.
‘...I was left on the field for over an hour after our men had been marched off. The Germans moved on quickly, leaving only a few officers and men behind. They left our wounded alone, but endeavoured to induce their own wounded to advance. I personally saw several threatened with revolvers and whips...On leaving the field I collected a few of the wounded who could walk...these I had to leave at a house, with a Red Cross flag, in Le Cateau. Arriving at M Seydoux’s house I found all the officers there. We were informed that if any officer attempted to escape all other officers would be immediately shot...in the same grounds, was full of wounded...Early on the morning of the 27th August I obtained leave for myself and three other officers...Here we found 84 men...many were desperately badly wounded...It was only with the greatest difficulty that we could obtain a little soup &c. In spite of the fact there was an abundance of food and ample cooking facilities...There appeared to be no discipline among the German troops; they surrounded the house in groups, preparing chickens, ducks, fish &c. For eating...there were thousands of flies and the stench was appalling...On the afternoon of the 27th August I obtained leave to go and try and find Captain Cutbill...I made three journeys, during which I visited, I think, all the improvised hospitals in Le Cateau...Finally I found the Red Cross house I had left the previous evening...On entering the stable I found Major Doughty,...On 31st August...we marched to Cambrai...there was no German officer with us, several passed along the street from time to time; these were appealed to but without result, they only laughed...’


Padre O’Rorke
4 Field Amb.
Captured 29 Aug.
Near Landcrecies.
‘...We remained in Landrecies until Saturday, August 29, expecting daily to be returned to our own people...Our destination, however, ws fated to be in the opposite direction. Under an escort of half a dozen German soldiers, commanded by an under-officer, we marched out of the town, up the hill where the battle had taken place, to Bavay. It was a tiring journey for the wounded men lying in the ambulance wagons...It was dark when we reached Bavay...August 30, I held a service, at the request of the patients...The next day we were marched under escort to Mons...We were paraded through the cobbled streets to the barracks, then (evidently by a mistake) to the station, and finally back again to the barracks, where, in some dirty rooms over a filthy stable, we spend the night. Here we met the Hon. Ivan Hay of the 5th Lancers, who had narrowly escaped being shot after his capture by the Germans, but he was not allowed to accompany our party. The following morning we were marched once more to the station...During the afternoon an ill-mannered under-officer bade us hand over knives, razors, and sticks, At 6p.m. we were entrained with about 1000 wounded, of whom some forty or fifty were ours, the rest being Germans. The train must have been a quarter of a mile long...’


Lt. Hardy
2 Connaught Rgrs.
Captured 27 Aug.
Maroillers.
‘...A captain and 27 men were taken with me some 24 hours after to Le Cateau, a long way behind the German lines. When captured we were treated very well; the next guard to whom we were handed was abusive, and as we went from guard to guard they were pretty rough, but did not knock anybody about. We were marched for a day through Belgium and, and arrived in the night at a big junction...’ Continues with his train journey but does not say where he boarded the train.


Capt. Hargreaves
2 Somerset LI.
Wounded near Le Cateau 26 Aug
Captured 27 Aug in a church at La Fontaine.
‘...On 26th August...I fell wounded by a shell and remained unconscious for (I suppose) about three hours on the field of battle. When I came to, I was practically blind, and helped...to a temporary improvised hospital in the village church of La Fontaine...The Germans entered the place about 6a.m. on 27th August. They were courteous and polite. I stayed in this place three days or so and was then marched (with others) towards Valenciennes...From La Fontaine to Valenciennes we were unceasingly insulted by German officers and men. From Valenciennes we were marched to Mons. At Mons station we were searched, and practically everything we had taken from us, except what we stood up in. I saw German soldiers kicking wounded British soldiers, and German N.C.O.’s looking on and laughing. On or about 2nd September we were put into the train at Mons for an unknown destination In Germany. Only third-class carriages were available. Our guard were men of some Wurtenberg regiment, and individually were inclined to be kind and help us when no feld-webel was about...At Mons the German doctors changed our wounded men’s bandages, but from there to their destination medical attention was refused us.’


Capt. Butt
2 KOYLI.
Wounded and captured near Le Cateau 26 Aug.
‘...I was hit in the left knee...at about 5.15p.m (approx.) I saw at about 100 yards away Captain Luther...some 60 minutes of waiting brought one more officer with a patrol of six horsemen. This officer was extremely courteous, and offered to take the two of us into the village of Le Cateau on his horses...We were taken to a barn at the end of the village...then Captain Luther and I were put into a card and taken to L’Hopital Paturle..a civil hospital...till Monday 31st August, we continued to exist, having our wounds dressed every other day by a kindly old French doctor and his wife...on this day Captain Luther was transferred to a private house belonging to a Monsieur Seydoux...3rd September...whole hospital was taken over b what I considered a competent German staff...8th September...the auto was at the door and in ten minutes I was to leave for Cambrai...On arriving at the Hotel de Ville, Cambrai, we awaited instructions...we were then ordered to go to the College Fenelon...11th September...I was to be transported to Germany...I arrived at Cambrai station at 1p.m...At 7p.m. after a wait of six hours, we were told that we had to get into the train...’


Capt. Godsal
3 Ox&Bucks LI.
Wounded and captured No location given 26 Aug.
‘...Injured in the leg by fragment of bridge blown up by the French early in the morning of 26th August...I was taken to the hospital (formerly a girls’ school) at Avesnes. The same day the Germans took possession of the place...The hospital soon became full of German wounded...I remained there for seven days, and was then taken in a motor car ...to Beaumont...I was taken to a Belgian house and put in a bedroom...In the evening the house was packed with German wounded. The worst wounded was put in the bed with me...I was given a cup of coffee and some bad bread that evening. Next morning I was given the same and a lump of raw bacon. I went out and sat in the street. The station was about a quarter of a mile away, and I just managed to walk to it. I could easily have escaped if not wounded, as there were no sentries about...I was put into a fourth-class compartment...’


Capt. Barker
1 Connaught Rangers.
Wounded and captured near Le Cateau. 26 Aug.
‘I was wounded in the thigh and taken prisoner at Le Cateau on the night of 26-27 August and taken to a French hospital at Avennes, run by Germans. It was a girls’ school...We were there 10 days, and I was then sent on to Germany alone. I was three days and nights in a horse-truck with wounded French Tommies and for the first two days and nights were given no food...’ Captain Barker does not say where he was first entrained.

Letters and correspondence: He was allowed to write two letters on the way to Torgau from Sieburg fortress. One letter home and another to the wife of Dr. Korte in Berlin.


Lt. Hay
5 Lancers
Captured 26 August in Le Cateau.
‘...I then set out to try and rejoin my regiment attempting to get past the head of the German column marching parallel on the opposite side of the valley. After it became dark I marched 35 kilometres guided by firing in the distance. At about 6a.m. August 26th I met a patrol who informed me that I was about one and a half miles from Le Cateau and that the British was there. A French farmer offered me a lift to Le Cateau in a sort of covered cart which I accepted. On the outskirts of Le Cateau we drove round a corner under a railway arch into the middle of a German division. I made a jump out of the cart but was seized as I reached the ground.’ According to Capt. Butt, 2 KOYLI – Ivan Hay was a prisoner at Torgau however he is the only one of these men whom I have been unable to trace his movements from Le Cateau to Torgau.

There are some links between the accounts but I have not added any of my own thoughts. If I have entered information is to clarify what is written and to add extrA information that might be relevant and found at later points in the individual's account. All of the above information is also in this Word Doc. table:

ACCOUNTS FROM BATTLE AREA.docx

Cheers.

[seaforth78]

Well done!! Much more coherent seeing these accounts in single form than reading them all from Bond's book!

[seaforths]

It serves as several snapshots of the area from several individuals. To progress from this further down the line would be the route, timings and stopping places of each individual on the way to Torgau. However, rather than put up the whole lot at once, I have put up the start and hope some discussion and analysis might come forward.as the most likely place that the photograph was taken before taking it forward to their onward journeys. It highlights the inconsistencies in treatment however, there are some interesting snippets of information within their accounts and some avenues open to exploration with regard to the photograph and its content.

[seaforths]

This might help to put the men from the accounts posted in #420 on the ground. Hopefully of a high enough quality to be able to find and see with some degree of clarity the places named:

Unfortunately the map above does not extend up to Mons and I have managed to find another map that does...

[seaforths]

I have at long last managed to track down a full account from Lieut. Ivan Hay captured at Torgau and wonder now if Major Yate was with him!

Edit: should have added: Possibly at some point in Le Cateau or some point Mons before their paths separated.

http://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/cgi-bin/paperspast?a=d&d=EP19181119.2.59

[Phil Evans]

A good find Marjorie!

Did Hay go to Sennelager before Torgau? I'm having a bit of a problem with his timings. They need compressing to make fit.

Does this help?

I've made a couple of assumptions with place names. Avesnes / Avennes, I've taken to be Avesnes-sur-Helpe. La Fontaine I've taken to be Fontaine-au-Pire, near Caudry.

Barker's plot is partial and Bond I have assumed entrained at Cambrai.

Phil

From Le Cateau.pdf

[seaforths]

A good find Marjorie!

Did Hay go to Sennelager before Torgau? I'm having a bit of a problem with his timings. They need compressing to make fit.

Does this help?

I've made a couple of assumptions with place names. Avesnes / Avennes, I've taken to be Avesnes-sur-Helpe. La Fontaine I've taken to be Fontaine-au-Pire, near Caudry.

Barker's plot is partial and Bond I have assumed entrained at Cambrai.

Phil

Sorry Phil,

I perhaps should have said but the information I posted is individual timings for each of them from battlefield to entraining so in this instance it ends where they are getting on the train. I have another Word document on the go at the moment with their movements across Belgium and Germany to Torgau. They more or less took the same route but their accounts differ slightly. Some were taken off for processing down the route at different places too. Someone else mentions getting off at Sennelager whereas another mentions a stopping point with wooden huts and they were taken off and fed - sounds like Sennelager. Most of them have some grasp of where they are at given times.

I thought I would put them up separately so that if we can get no further forward with the image closer to the battlefield, then it might be worth exploring further afield. I need a little more time to type information into it; also need to follow up a lead I have for a possible escape attempt en-route which I wanted to add to it as well.

I can see that Hay was captured in the morning at Le Cateau and Yate late afternoon. If you read the Padre's account, Hay and him seem to have been held at the same place at Mons but the Padre ends up on the train at Mons whereas Hay is marched further on for another 2-3 days. Given that Hay arrived at Torgau after Yate, it is possible that they moved him onto Mons with Hay's lot and that he was possibly entrained at Mons a bit earlier than him.

I am in the process of typing up the rest of Ivan Hay's account to add to the Word document. The first part of his account came from a book - History of the Lancers and as you see, the rest from that New Zealand newspaper report.

When I typed up the accounts from battlefield to train, I chopped little bits out in the interests of brevity and my typing but many of the accounts mention other names but no-one seems to mention Yate in Le Cateau which leaves me thinking he either didn't spend very long there (like Hay) or he was taken straight to Cambrai or Mons in that car...He quite obviously tells Bond and the Padre of his adventures when he gets to Torgau, it is a shame they don't reveal more of what those adventures were. However, as the other Word doc is still in draft, I will add what I can.

With regard to the letter he sent, I don't think it was a hurried note pushed out of a train window or pressed into the hand of a Belgian. I think, given the date, he was on German soil and like the other officer (who was managed to write two letters) he got a letter out from another camp before Torgau.

[seaforths]

A good find Marjorie!

Did Hay go to Sennelager before Torgau? I'm having a bit of a problem with his timings. They need compressing to make fit.

Does this help?

I've made a couple of assumptions with place names. Avesnes / Avennes, I've taken to be Avesnes-sur-Helpe. La Fontaine I've taken to be Fontaine-au-Pire, near Caudry.

Barker's plot is partial and Bond I have assumed entrained at Cambrai.

Phil

Map is perfect - thanks for that. I figured the spelling differences but left the spellings as they were from the accounts. Putting them on a map makes it easier to see who went where! I am off to look for some Life Guards and Hussars! The German guards seem to have been a bit of a lottery in terms of their treatment of prisoners. Hay certainly seems to have had a really tough time of it.

[trajan]

... It is interesting that this French officer gives reference to "the fort" (which is most likely Fort Zinna) as being the location of the Kommandant, as it would be the superior HQ location.

Been off for a while travelling and so just back to the thread!

Can't go along with you on that one, SS... Need to see the letter but if Torgau a fortress city then the commander of the fort of Torgau is as likely to be based in the local Rathaus as anywhere else.

Trajan

[trajan]

So these German troops in the Yate photo are undeniably Bavarian. While the Kokarden is certainly indicative, it is the unique Hellblau uniform which confirms.

Of the entire combined German army, it was only the Bavarians which wore this particular colour uniform, rarely seen during the war and then only on home soil....

EDIT. The postcard shown confirms the use of this uniform on home soil by Reserve units, being Feldpost marked to the Kgl. Bay. Reserve-Infanterie-Regt. Nr.5

SS, Several dragoon units also wore Hellblau and I know of one Train battalion that did so also. . And although Hellblau does seem to be the colour of those tunics, I have wondered if they could just be faded Jaeger green... I haven't tried experimenting with colour tones of jaeger uniforms in B&W to compare with those in the photograph, and I am not at all certain if the Jaeger wore the kratzchen, but...

Bearing in mind that the German High Comamnd was not exactly prepared for a long war - to my mind they were thinking a repeat of 1870-71 - it would not be surprising to me that some units, but most obviously reserve or Landwehr, would have out-dated uniforms. BUT, are you now changing tack to drag Yate onto Bavarian 'home soil', ie., Bavaria itself? That is what you seem to be suggesting...

[trajan]

This is quite a lot of information to read and digest. It is the start of a time line for a number of officers captured around the area of Le Cateau in the last week of August 1914. I will post the information first and I will post it as a table within a word document at the end of the post:

Maj. Yate....

..... Cheers.

My gosh! Sterling work there Seaforths!

[trajan]

Hi onw and all,

Just seen that there are quite a few posts to read and possibly reply to since I was last on GWF (24 May), so I'll try and do some multi-post replying - but forgive me if one of my posts addresses two or more quite disparate matters!

I have gone through all the Order of Battle listings for all the Bavarian units on the register as at August/September 1914 and illustrated in the spreadsheet below.

Thanks SS, I look forward to having some free time to study this properly, but what was you main source? It would help to known that!

And the winner is.......Seaforths with the bands!

Hmm, yes, possible, but will hold back on a considered opinion till later...

[trajan]

I have at long last managed to track down a full account from Lieut. Ivan Hay captured at Torgau and wonder now if Major Yate was with him!

Edit: should have added: Possibly at some point in Le Cateau or some point Mons before their paths separated.

Maps are excellent! Many thanks! While muddying things in a way the maps and your accounts of the different experiences of the officers clarifies the confusion and problems in tracking Yate from Le Cateau onwards - if you see what I mean!

A good find Marjorie!

Did Hay go to Sennelager before Torgau? I'm having a bit of a problem with his timings. They need compressing to make fit. ...

Phil

And Phil, thanks also for your contribution there!

Julian

[seaforths]

The following is a list of POW names I have been able to place at Torgau. Those with an asterisk, I have been able to trace most or some of their movements from the front to Torgau. This is obviously not a complete list and there others that might have been there who are not listed. They were all moved out to Burg around 24 November 1914.

PRISONERS AT TORGAU - OFFICERS:

Col. WE Gordon, Gordon Hrs.

*Lieut. Col. RC Bond, KOYLI.
Lieut. Col. CF Stevens, RFA.
Lieut. Col CM Stephenson,KOSB.

*Padre BG O’Rorke, Army Chaplain, Field Ambulance.

*Major AS Peebles, Suffolk Regiment.
Major NW Barlow, Hants Regiment.
Major GHF Tailyour, RFA.
Major ACR Nutt, RFA.
Major AE Haig, KOSB.
Major B Chetwynd-Stapylton, Cheshire Regiment.
Major AG Thompson, RAMC.
Major WH Long, RAMC.
Major PH Collingwood, RAMC.


Capt. PCT Davy, RAMC.
Capt. AJ Brown, RAMC.
Capt. AS Williams, RAMC.
Capt. JET Younger, RFA.
Capt. ROD Keppel, Coldstream Guards.
Capt. HA Cartwright, Middlesex Regiment.
Capt. VR Tarhoudin, Cheshire Regiment.
Capt. CAK Matterson, Cheshire Regiment.
Capt. EE Pearson, Suffolk Regiment.
Capt. JA Campbell, Suffolk Regiment.
Capt. Maclean, A & S Hrs.
*Capt.AJG Hargreaves, Somerset LI.
Capt. HS Jervis, Royal Munster Fusiliers.
*Capt. TB Butt, KOYLI.
Capt. L Simpson, KOYLI.
*Capt. WD Barker, Connaught Rangers.
Capt. WG Roche, Connaught Rangers.
*Capt. P Godsal, Ox & Bucks LI.


Lieut. PP Butler, RAMC.
Lieut. WGR Elliot, Cheshire Regiment.
Lieut. RD Mosely, Royal Munster Fusiliers.
*Lieut. I Hay, Lancers.
*Lieut. JL Hardy, Connaught Rangers.
Lieut. CH West, Royal Dublin Fusiliers.
Lieut. AEB Anderson, Royal Irish Regiment.
Lieut. HB Hibbert, KOYLI.
Lieut. JB Noel, KOYLI.
Lieut. CH Rawdon, KOYLI
Lieut. JG Swayne, Somerset LI.
Lieut. A Hickman, 4th Dragoon Guards.
Lieut. RG Peek, 7th Lancers.
Lieut. TL George, Suffolk Regiment.
Lieut. CG Graves, Royal Scots.
Lieut. C Usher, Gordon Hrs.
Lieut. JFH Houldsworth, Gordon Hrs.
Lieut. HL Pelham Burn, Gordon Hrs.
Lieut. WD Hunter Blair, Gordon Hrs.
Lieut. W Clark, Irish Rifles.
Lieut. WW Wagstaff, Bedfordshire Regiment.
Lieut. J Berry, South Lancashire Regiment.
**Lieut. EB Budden, Middlesex Regiment.
*Lieut.H LeGrand. Intelligence Corps.
**Lieut. T Breen, Intelligence Corps.


PRISONERS AT TORGAU – ORs:

Cpl. Belfour, RE
L/Cpl. Higgins. Gordon Hrs.
Sgt. Tyte, 9th Lancers.

The point of posting this list is that, there may be other accounts out their in the form of newspaper articles, diaries, regimental histories etc. for some of these men, if anyone is inclined to look...

[seaforth78]

Ah, so Breen was IC! I was wondering what unit he was from....

[shippingsteel]

This follows on from my last post #413 ... before I was rudely interrupted ... again.

So how do the Bavarians get to be alongside Yate in the photo.? Yate was captured by the IV Armee Korps of the 1st Army, and then interned as a IV Armee Korps POW.

The German 1st Army was responsible for the far right flank of the invasion plan, firstly moving through Belgium before swinging south through the north of France to Paris.

The 1st Army encountered stronger than expected resistance in Belgium which delayed their progress, and then met some dogged defence from the BEF moving northward.

These unexpected impediments to the plan, combined with higher than expected losses in the early battles, would have required all available Army reserves to be called up.

So the Reserve troops at the various Armee Korps bases (such as Torgau) would have been called forward, leaving substantial gaps in the system needing to be shored up.

Of course mobilisation was being ramped up with Landwehr and Landsturm troops being enlisted, but these were not fully trained or ready for deployment at this early time.

So Army Reserves from other areas where they could be spared, were then drawn into the 1st Army line of communication to fill the gaps, and to also help occupy Belgium.

Bavarian troops were certainly amongst these Reserves moving into Belgium as support troops, but it is uncertain how many were present at this particular stage of the war.

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

And whilst looking for more Bavarians in their light blue "Hellblau" uniforms ... I think I may have found our man, no not Yate - the other guy (the Bavarian.!)

So check out this photo of a group of Bavarian NCO's as a comparison, the guy under the arrow looks very much like the guard standing to the right of Yate.

And the similarities are that numerous I will list them below, just so nothing is missed or overlooked. I think this could be a very important clue to the location.

1) Same rifles being the Gewehr 88, fitted with same bayonets Seitengewehr 71/84. Same early pattern Patronentaschen (ammunition pouches).

2) Same style of Krätzchen headwear with the very pale coloured Kokarden, of slightly larger size so typical of the Bavarian style Kokarden.

3) Same lighter shade of blue in the uniform, most noticeable with the light/dark tones seen in the sleeves in the vicinity of the Brandenburg cuff.

4) Same rank bands seen in both the Brandenburg cuffs and collar, which indicate this particular soldier is of an NCO level ranking.

5) And of particular interest to the specific ID and location of this soldier, is the unusual buttoning pattern on his tunic, which also matches.

(These buttons are not attached in a straight line but appear slightly crooked in the photo. Also note the darker button 3rd up from the buckle)

(And of course, there appears the identical rolled up shoulder boards on this soldiers uniform, and also on some of the other soldiers as well)

Cheers, S>S

[eairicbloodaxe]

Amazing detective work SS!

Where did the other pic come from?

Regards

Ian