Capture of Major Yate

[trajan]

Certainly seems a good fit, but that is a studio photograph, so where was it taken? When? BUT, as is so often the case with the work that you do SS, you don't give us a source! A true scholar supplies or is ready to supply his or her sources... That aside, you could have added that the troddel would fit a Bavarian origin as well...

Trajan

[shippingsteel]

Amazing detective work SS! Where did the other pic come from?

Thank you Ian for the kind words. But if you keep digging long enough and hard enough, eventually you do come up with a little gold every now and then.!

It does say volumes about the rarity and uniqueness of this type of Hellblau uniform being worn during the war. Of all the German soldiers that pulled on a tunic ...

Certainly seems a good fit, but that is a studio photograph, so where was it taken? When? BUT, as is so often the case with the work that you do SS, you don't give us a source! A true scholar supplies or is ready to supply his or her sources...

Trajan, who ever said that I am a "true scholar" or expert of any kind. Remember this is a discussion forum not a lecture hall. This stuff does not get marked - really.!

And if you want references you can always do your own research on the various topics. It might take you many hours, but in the end you'll be able to confirm for your self.

So Army Reserves from other areas where they could be spared, were then drawn into the 1st Army line of communication to fill the gaps, and to also help occupy Belgium.

Bavarian troops were certainly amongst these Reserves moving into Belgium as support troops, but it is uncertain how many were present at this particular stage of the war.

With this new photo, I believe it is good evidence of the above occurring. Reserve troops from other sectors moving up into the 1st Army 'line of communication' to fill gaps.

Yes this photo was taken in Liege, Belgium but unfortunately there is NO date or any other information about the unit, only the studio name (Samson & Cie) and location.

So this doesn't solve the case but it does give us another lead to follow up. With Liege being the major rail junction going back into Germany it's the likely route for the POW.

We shouldn't jump to conclusions though, as without a date it does nothing but prove they were there in the vicinity of the rail route. Quite possibly a train guard detachment.?

Cheers, S>S

[seaforths]

Are the mere mortals allowed to post again - or is that considered an interruption!

[Phil Evans]

Another snippet of the one I posted in #418

I was hoping that someone would be able to pick up on the unit, as it is not one I am familiar with.

Phil

[seaforths]

Thank you Ian for the kind words. But if you keep digging long enough and hard enough, eventually you do come up with a little gold every now and then.!

It does say volumes about the rarity and uniqueness of this type of Hellblau uniform being worn during the war. Of all the German soldiers that pulled on a tunic ...

Trajan, who ever said that I am a "true scholar" or expert of any kind. Remember this is a discussion forum not a lecture hall. This stuff does not get marked - really.!

And if you want references you can always do your own research on the various topics. It might take you many hours, but in the end you'll be able to confirm for your self.

With this new photo, I believe it is good evidence of the above occurring. Reserve troops from other sectors moving up into the 1st Army 'line of communication' to fill gaps.

Yes this photo was taken in Liege, Belgium but unfortunately there is NO date or any other information about the unit, only the studio name (Samson & Cie) and location.

So this doesn't solve the case but it does give us another lead to follow up. With Liege being the major rail junction going back into Germany it's the likely route for the POW.

We shouldn't jump to conclusions though, as without a date it does nothing but prove they were there in the vicinity of the rail route. Quite possibly a train guard detachment.?

Cheers, S>S

Trajan is quite right about sources being important and no-one expects Harvard referencing and a bibliography but sources are a great help so that others who are interested can look at the source first hand if they wish to do so. Sources are also important as a common courtesy. Sure, those who post on internet auction sites know the image will probably be lifted which is why they give such poor quality images. But someone who has put a lot of energy into posting masses of such good quality images on a site such as flickr surely deserves at least an acknowledgement from the person lifting their images and using them elsewhere. Again, it is useful for other members who might be interested in looking at the source first hand. It also helps the Forum stay in the clear with copyright and plagiarism issues.

So...for those of you who might like to look at this good man's treasure trove of imagery credit to Drake Goodman (who seems very knowledgeable on his uniforms and weaponry) and...here is the link: https://www.flickr.com/photos/drakegoodman/6556707883/in/photostream/

I believe Mr Goodman states artillery or train guard. As for jumping to conclusions - God forbid that would happen - the Fort Zinna debacle is still too fresh in my memory.

I am putting a slide show of old images together of Le Cateau some of the places are mentioned by the men as places they were held or, in the case of some wounded, looked after. So many were lost in bitter struggle there, it would be (I think) a tribute to them if nothing else.

Phil/Trajan/S78 - I will finish the train routes from individual accounts after the weekend and send updates then but some of them are quite detailed and so another big typing job.

[shippingsteel]

Another snippet of the one I posted in #418

I was hoping that someone would be able to pick up on the unit, as it is not one I am familiar with.

Phil, I think that postcard is a very important piece of evidence quite relevant to this discussion, as it places the Bavarians in Belgium at the time.

The unit stated is the Erlangen Landsturm Bataillon, which was a smaller independent unit mobilised from the city of Erlangen in northern Bavaria.

That is the difficulty with putting a finger on all these Bavarian units, as they were not entire regiments, but subordinated Kompanies and Bataillons.

It would be very interesting to see both sides of the card if possible (and get it translated) to see if there are any further details which can be gleaned.

Cheers, S>S

[seaforth78]

Sources are also important as a common courtesy. Sure, those who post on internet auction sites know the image will probably be lifted which is why they give such poor quality images. But someone who has put a lot of energy into posting masses of such good quality images on a site such as flickr surely deserves at least an acknowledgement from the person lifting their images and using them elsewhere. Again, it is useful for other members who might be interested in looking at the source first hand. It also helps the Forum stay in the clear with copyright and plagiarism issues.

So...for those of you who might like to look at this good man's treasure trove of imagery credit to Drake Goodman (who seems very knowledgeable on his uniforms and weaponry) and...here is the link: https://www.flickr.com/photos/drakegoodman/6556707883/in/photostream/

I believe Mr Goodman states artillery or train guard. As for jumping to conclusions - God forbid that would happen - the Fort Zinna debacle is still too fresh in my memory.

SS, that wasn't cricket was it? All of us who have contributed to this thread have all contributed sources; now for you to not credit poor Goodman, well, it's not nice. Indeed, there has been no citations from you at all in this entire thread. Shame on you.

[seaforth78]

This stuff does not get marked - really.!

And if you want references you can always do your own research on the various topics. It might take you many hours, but in the end you'll be able to confirm for your self.

Cheers, S>S

Really? But poor Goodman gets fleeched....but that's ok with you apparently.

[trajan]

Trajan, who ever said that I am a "true scholar" or expert of any kind. Remember this is a discussion forum not a lecture hall. This stuff does not get marked - really.!

And if you want references you can always do your own research on the various topics. It might take you many hours, but in the end you'll be able to confirm for your self.

And to think that only a few threads back you were complaining when Egbert didn't point you exactly to the answer to your question about the identity of a German medal... Of course you are not a true scholar, nor are you a sharer, which is what this discussion forum is intended for to share knowledge. I regret to point this out, because you have made some very useful contributions to bayonet studies in particular, but with an attitude like that don't be too surprised if others no longer want to share facts with you either.

[trajan]

Trajan is quite right about sources being important and no-one expects Harvard referencing and a bibliography but sources are a great help so that others who are interested can look at the source first hand if they wish to do so. Sources are also important as a common courtesy. Sure, those who post on internet auction sites know the image will probably be lifted which is why they give such poor quality images. But someone who has put a lot of energy into posting masses of such good quality images on a site such as flickr surely deserves at least an acknowledgement from the person lifting their images and using them elsewhere. Again, it is useful for other members who might be interested in looking at the source first hand. It also helps the Forum stay in the clear with copyright and plagiarism issues.

So...for those of you who might like to look at this good man's treasure trove of imagery credit to Drake Goodman (who seems very knowledgeable on his uniforms and weaponry) and...here is the link: https://www.flickr.com/photos/drakegoodman/6556707883/in/photostream/

I believe Mr Goodman states artillery or train guard. As for jumping to conclusions - God forbid that would happen - the Fort Zinna debacle is still too fresh in my memory.

I am putting a slide show of old images together of Le Cateau some of the places are mentioned by the men as places they were held or, in the case of some wounded, looked after. So many were lost in bitter struggle there, it would be (I think) a tribute to them if nothing else.

Phil/Trajan/S78 - I will finish the train routes from individual accounts after the weekend and send updates then but some of them are quite detailed and so another big typing job.

Seaforth, that is simply excellent comment and excellent work also - Bravo!

I had noted in an earlier post that the hellblau uniform was worn by a Train Battalion - and if Drake Goodman says this is possibly a Train battalion group then quite possibly 'zut alors!' I will be happy to PM you (and any others who are interested) with the details as the particular train battalion is NOT Bavarian!

Trajan

[shippingsteel]

What an outstanding effort you guys.! Just as we finally get a chance at a breakthrough on identifying the unit and the location of the photo, you once again try to divert attention from the goal by the sustained use of personal attacks.

No mention that the soldiers are indeed Bavarian and they are indeed located back in Liege (Belgium) in the line of communication of the 1st Army. Nowhere near the front, and nowhere near Le Cateau, somehow that's not surprising.

It really shows the total lack of sincerity that has permeated this thread from the beginning. For some reason the truth about this photo of Yate is not supposed to be uncovered. But the photo WAS taken and the evidence is there for all to see.

Yes in my excitement I did neglect to credit the source of the photo. But I can tell you the guys name is not Drake and certainly not Mr Goodman. Just another good Aussie who has a keen interest in all aspects of WW1 photographs.

And I don't think he would object to other like minded people using his image for further research into the people portrayed, especially given his photo is now forever linked to someone famous in the form of our dear Major Yate VC.

Yes thanks to this clear photo of the unit and the knowledge that they are Bavarians in Belgium, the possibilities are much reduced, and I think it's just a matter of time before the unit and its movements are identified and detailed.

However given the particularly low ebb that this thread has reached, and with only the one person actually trying to find the location of the photo, I feel that any further such discussion on this subject is now rather pointless.

Cheers, S>S

[seaforths]

The photograph under discussion here:...

... was expanded on before closure of the previous thread and linked to a man at the left forefront of the above image (as you look at it) and the same man (second in from the right as you look at the image) in the photograph found through this link:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/drakegoodman/6556707883/

Trajan I have a feeling that you think they might well be Saxe and not Bavarian so would be really interested to find out what you have.

For my part - I have something on the uniforms and I'm not sure if you will find it a help or hindrance! More newspaper articles and by this time tomorrow evening, I hope to have finally finished the recounts of the train journeys for the individuals rather than the brief summary I emailed to those interested from the previous thread and I will integrate that with the capture table I produced into a bigger single document and post it in this thread. I will also repost the railway maps at that time to save faffing between this and the other thread.

[seaforths]

This is an article I found in the Neue Hamburger Zeitung for 26 August 1914 and sourced here:http://www.theeuropeanlibrary.org/tel4/newspapers

It seems longer and of a different content than the other articles so far and has some content about him being German born and a German mother (my thanks to Phil) which is more than I could work out (his name and Torgau).

[Indefatigable]

May I thank Seaforths for re-opening this interesting topic. I was not aware that it had been closed by the original OP although I had read their last posting.

Seaforths did you manage to find out what newpapers provided Mrs Tate with information about her husband when she was in Switzerland and by the way do you know what part of Switzerland she was staying in?

regards

Indefatigable

[seaforths]

On the uniforms, this is what I found in 'German Army in WW1 1914-15' (Thomas & Embleton):

On railway guards, this:-

And on Landwehr this:-

There seems to be a very good site here showing the kokaden and scrolling down you can see the ones with crosses for reserves. As I said previously, I'm not sure if this is a help or hindrance...

[seaforths]

May I thank Seaforths for re-opening this interesting topic. I was not aware that it had been closed by the original OP although I had read their last posting.

Seaforths did you manage to find out what newpapers provided Mrs Tate with information about her husband when she was in Switzerland and by the way do you know what part of Switzerland she was staying in?

regards

Indefatigable

Still working through newspapers . If I recall from information in his file, a letter from his cousin implies there was more than one German source of written articles and certainly there seem to be quite a few out there. Mrs Yates address from his file on the date given (27 July 1915) was:

[trajan]

This is an article I found in the Neue Hamburger Zeitung for 26 August 1914 and sourced here:http://www.theeuropeanlibrary.org/tel4/newspapers

It seems longer and of a different content than the other articles so far and has some content about him being German born and a German mother (my thanks to Phil) which is more than I could work out (his name and Torgau).

Capture.JPG

Many thanks for re-opening this topic! I'm not quite ready for the uniform discussion yet, but suffice to say for now that I have knowledge of and information about a Saxon train battalion that did wear a hellblau tunic in the years following on from the re-organisation of the German military after the 'unification' process of 1870/1871, and which unit was in the northern sector of the West Front in August 1914. Of course, I could be completely wrong on this as I am working on the basis that those guys are wearing a hellblau tunic and not something else, e.g., a jaeger green!

I had a quick glance at the German newspaper article, which certainly looks highly informative. However, even with my limited knowledge of the language I think you are missing a line or two, as the first bit seems to end 'Seine mutter war eine geborene', which would be along the line of 'His [i.e., Yate] mother was born', and which (to my mind) should be followed by something about where she was born, but the first line of the second part begins 'krieges noch einmal...', and so something like 'war yet again...'.

I'll try to look again later - summer school teaching has started!

Best regards, Seaforths, and indeed - 'On with the dance'!

[seaforths]

Many thanks for re-opening this topic! I'm not quite ready for the uniform discussion yet, but suffice to say for now that I have knowledge of and information about a Saxon train battalion that did wear a hellblau tunic in the years following on from the re-organisation of the German military after the 'unification' process of 1870/1871, and which unit was in the northern sector of the West Front in August 1914. Of course, I could be completely wrong on this as I am working on the basis that those guys are wearing a hellblau tunic and not something else, e.g., a jaeger green!

I had a quick glance at the German newspaper article, which certainly looks highly informative. However, even with my limited knowledge of the language I think you are missing a line or two, as the first bit seems to end 'Seine mutter war eine geborene', which would be along the line of 'His [i.e., Yate] mother was born', and which (to my mind) should be followed by something about where she was born, but the first line of the second part begins 'krieges noch einmal...', and so something like 'war yet again...'.

I'll try to look again later - summer school teaching has started!

Best regards, Seaforths, and indeed - 'On with the dance'!

Oh, right, that will be my lack of German! I thought I had the whole article cropped and will sort it out and repost - doh!

Edit: Oh I can't work it out! I can't read it to know where I should be cropping ! Is this better?

[Indefatigable]

Many thanks Seaforths for the hotel address.

I have a couple of old tour guides of Switzerland (Baedeker's 1897 and Muirhead's Blue Guide 1923) and from what I can glean from them it seems that Arosa wasn't exactly an easy place to get to in 1915 (the village of Arosa being about 1800 metres above sea level and a population of somewhere between 1000-2000 people). If I understood what I read correctly a railway spur from Chur (the nearest town) was built between 1912-1914 and the journey took about 90+ minutes. A road suitable for motor vehicles was not built until the 1920's although horse driven transport was available (distance of about 30 kms). The hotel itself was regarded as the "English Hotel" in Arosa. It seems that originally it was known for its health spa hotels until Arthur Conan Doyle skied from Davos to Arosa in 1895 and published details of his experience.

My line of thinking was that her location might have provided simple and easy access to the German press but clearly not. Her choice of location may have been dictated by giving the appearence of being a tourist rather than finding out more about her husbands demise.

regards

Indefatigable

[trajan]

Oh, right, that will be my lack of German! I thought I had the whole article cropped and will sort it out and repost - doh!

Edit: Oh I can't work it out! I can't read it to know where I should be cropping ! Is this better?

Oh, er, well.... sadly no! It seems that you have the bottom and top bits of columns that must continue on from each other and If it was a Latin inscription I could probably get somewhere as those are stereotyped, but not this! Having said that, well the Yate account has to continue either into the next column on the right OR much more likely the next one on the left, that is to say, a column to the left of the 'Rundfahrt', as it seems to be a page end to the right of the existing Yate bit. The Rundfahrt column does seem to continue into the next three columns, given that the fourth column seems to start and end with an account of the end of a journey, and so probably the yate account continued into the column to the left of the Rundfahrt one...

Does any of the above make sense???!!! If not then I'll go to the original. But, I tried the link you gave (http://www.theeurope...tel4/newspapers) but did not know where to go to next - does one look for the paper by name and date? I have some free time tomorrow so can look further then...

On another note - happy to put the uniform discussion here if you would like, but can do a separate thread if it avoids complications... Let me know so that we can continue with the dance!

Best.

Trajan

[trajan]

Should have added a brief summary of what that bit of the column says!

Basically it is headed along the lines of 'Major Yate was born a German', and goes on to note his escape from prison camp at Torgau, his suicide, and then that the paper has learnt that he was born in Ludwigsluft(?), 14 March, in Kirchplatz, house number 19, his mother being born... Mein Gott! Yate war ein echter Preuße!

Trajan

[seaforths]

Many thanks Seaforths for the hotel address.

I have a couple of old tour guides of Switzerland (Baedeker's 1897 and Muirhead's Blue Guide 1923) and from what I can glean from them it seems that Arosa wasn't exactly an easy place to get to in 1915 (the village of Arosa being about 1800 metres above sea level and a population of somewhere between 1000-2000 people). If I understood what I read correctly a railway spur from Chur (the nearest town) was built between 1912-1914 and the journey took about 90+ minutes. A road suitable for motor vehicles was not built until the 1920's although horse driven transport was available (distance of about 30 kms). The hotel itself was regarded as the "English Hotel" in Arosa. It seems that originally it was known for its health spa hotels until Arthur Conan Doyle skied from Davos to Arosa in 1895 and published details of his experience.

My line of thinking was that her location might have provided simple and easy access to the German press but clearly not. Her choice of location may have been dictated by giving the appearence of being a tourist rather than finding out more about her husbands demise.

regards

Indefatigable

Nice work! She was in Switzerland already, before he was captured and that is where he wrote to her. She was there apparently because she had been of ill health and was convalescing and that's what he told Breen. Another thought I had was that perhaps he had German relatives in Germany and she was in touch with them as they might have been sending her information from the press. I'm pretty sure he told Breen that he wanted to get to Switzerland because of his wife being there. It all fits really with the spa bit from your guide and her ill health etc.

I think S78 would have posted the letter head had he not been a bit pre-occupied with other things and then of course it got locked so I'm glad you raised it again. Perhaps they did get the German papers there at the hotel but there would have been a bit of a time delay due to the remoteness of the location.

Should have added a brief summary of what that bit of the column says!

Basically it is headed along the lines of 'Major Yate was born a German', and goes on to note his escape from prison camp at Torgau, his suicide, and then that the paper has learnt that he was born in Ludwigsluft(?), 14 March, in Kirchplatz, house number 19, his mother being born... Mein Gott! Yate war ein echter Preuße!

Trajan

Oh I'll have another bash. I tried to link to the page before but it doesn't seem to work it takes you into the search. Might as well keep the uniforms on going here - it's all relative and keeps it under one roof - unless off course you think you might get a higher and better response from the uniform experts by posting it there but I have managed to produce a better quality image from the photograph and will try and get to the laptop to post it here if you think it might help.

Edit: I've just emailed the page to you because it's too big to attach here and if I reduce it in size any more the quality will be even worse for your eyes! I have also attached another article from a Bavarian newspaper to the email.

[seaforths]

Trajan I've done what I can with the original image that was posted and unfortunately I can do nothing for the kokade although I did think I could see a hint of a cross on one of them which is what made me follow up that avenue of crosses relating to my previous post.

[trajan]

Thanks Seaforths! I am still getting used to the idea of what in other circumstances could have been Herr Major Yate of the Preussische Guard...!!! I really do need to get a bit more done on the uniform issue, and will do so when I can and of course will post here - thanks for the offer. I'll also try with the newspaper thing at some point... Promise!

Trajan

[seaforths]

Sorry folks! As I seem to be struggling to get the articles up here and retaining any quality at the same time so then for the benefit of anyone using the link to search the paper an article from source link (see post #2) it is:
Neue Hamburger (or might be Bamburger) Zeitung for 26 September 1914

The other article is Rosenheimer Anzeiger (A Bayern newspaper)which can be found here: http://www.bayerische-landesbibliothek-online.de/zeitungen-rosenheim on the front page for 23 September 1914

Cheers