Capture of Major Yate

[trajan]

I've had to be a bit surreptitious keeping up with the thread today - orders from above have had to come first. ... The Berliner Tageblatt was scanned out of line, which made things harder. I have tried to splice the missing bit on the left hand side. The continuation I used was the most obvious, as it was the only one on the following page....

I know only too well that need for 'orders for the day' - especially on a Saturday!

Ok, what can we do with that piece? It really needs a German expert, but a quick read through of what you give spliced together suggests that the list Yate carried had place names (Orstnamen) and letters in 'Latin'-type block capitals (Druckbuchstabenschrift), 'as used in the English army regulations', so (although I say it myself!) my suggested reconstruction above might not be too far off the mark. I just don't get that bit about 'Spiele' = 'game(s)' at the start...

[SiegeGunner]

"In an earlier report it was said that a list [of directions?] made in a different hand from Yates was discovered, indicating the marching route from Torgau to Dresden, so that it might give the impression to an outsider [bystander?]… that [the list] was part of a game. This was not the case: rather the list was a series of [place?] names, of which one was false, all of them written in the upright Latin letters as is used by the English Army according to their regulations."

What do you reckon SG? Ich glaube das deine Deutsch is viel besser als mein!

"In the earlier report it was stated that Yate was found to be in possession of a note written in a different hand, indicating the walking/marching route from Torgau to Dresden, which seemed to suggest that another person had had a hand in the venture. That is not correct: the place names, one of which was wrong, were in fact written in Latin printed characters, as is the convention in the British Army for proper names."

Mick

[seaforths]

Here with three reports mainly on Major Yate's escape and recapture. The first being from Captain Brandes who was the Camp Commandant but not the Commandant of Torgau which was a garrison town therefore had its own Commandant that superseded the Camp Commandant in both rank and authority:

According to a signed statement by Prof. Dr. Brandes the Camp Commandant at the time of Major Yate’s escape):

‘...having impressed everyone as being extremely nervous and excitable, since he became a prisoner. It was also declared that he had tried to shoot himself on the battlefield, and while travelling through Germany, attempted to jump out of the railway carriage...’

On his recapture he states the following:

‘... about midday it was reported by telephone from Martinskirchen that an escaped prisoner from Torgau had been recaptured there, who had suddenly cut his throat with a razor, while the director of the sugar factory, Dr. Schulz, and some workmen had searched a small package they took from him, hoping to find some clue. There was no doubt as to his identity, especially as it was found that the neck of the dead man was disfigured by scars which identified Yate, who had been operated some years before. A little later the clothes of the dead man and the money found, were brought to Torgau, together with a report of the Gendarmerie...In conclusion I may say, that Major Yate had attracted my attention from the very beginning of his imprisonment at the camp and I conversed with him very often. His opinions differed considerably from those of the rest of the officers...’

Edit: Corrected name error in first line from Braun to Brandes

[seaforths]

According to Breen (also Yate TNA file as previous post from Braun):

‘...He then equipped himself finally and arranged to leave on Friday night if the conditions were favourable. He exchanged his safety razor for my open razor. It did not strike me at the time as strange because an open razor is a useful knife at times on escape excursions of this kind...’

Breen then continues as to his conversation with Major Yate and what Major Yate’s fate night be should he be discovered:

‘...I remember that Major Yate remarked that he would like to obtain a revolver, in the event of finding himself surrounded by an excited mob of civilians who would in all probability put him to, a slow and painful death by clumsy violence...Two months later at Burg I have seen a similar case. A Russian Officer died after four hours agony, from injuries sustained on recapture. Major Yates’ fluent German would only make his chances smaller; when his effects proved on examination that he was English...He was dressed in a pair of work-mans’ trousers , a loose cloak, a soft hat, and black boots...He seems to have lost his hat during the night...Lieut Butler told me he had been shewn the Major’s bloodstained clothes by Lieut Brandes. Lieut Butlers’ description of the clothes coincided with those actually worn by him on the night of his escape...I ascertained from Frau Braun, the proprietress of the Camp Kantine, that the body had been buried at Martinskirchem, and that she had placed a wreath on the grave on behalf of the Officers POW who subscribe for this object...Major Yate is buried in the parish church of Martinskirchen (Evangelical) about 11 kilometres by road from Torgau about 1 kilometre from the east bank of the Elbe. The grave (set with pansies) is excellently looked after by Herr Stephan and the Local Inhabitants. An oak cross bearing the following inscription in large white capitals on a black background (over all dimensions 3 x 1 ½ metres) is set up and excellently preserved...’

At this point Breen has hand drawn a cross showing the inscription:

‘CHARLES ALLIK LASSINGTON YATE MAJOR KINGS OWN YORKSHIRE LIGHT INFANTRY GESTORBEN 20 SEPT 1914...The grave is close to the East wall of the Church among German graves...’

In Breen’s report, was information given to him by the ‘Schloss owner, Herr Stephan:

‘...Owing to the excitement and hostility of the country population, In order to avoid any unpleasantness he purchased the coffin and arranged that a number of trusted employees on his estate should hold the funeral at dawn on September 24th. This took place very quietly at 5am and he subsequently placed the cross described on the grave. A wreath obtained by Frau Braun (Kantine Proprietress in the camp) at the expense of the Officer Prisoners of War was placed on the grave. Stephan keeps the grave in order at his own expense...’

Breen also interviewed Herr Schultze, Manager of the Sugar Factory, Brottewitz. He said:-

‘On Sunday morning, September 20th, I was cycling towards Cosdorf, between 10 and 11 am, when I met a strange looking man walking on the side path close under the trees. The man wore a shabby cloak much too short for him, workman’s trousers and was hatless. I hailed him but got no answer. Seeing some young men of the the peasant class, near the Slate Factory I shouted to them and they hurried to me. I gave one of these my cycle and told him to overtake the suspect, saying “He may be a Spy”. The man overtook the stranger and ordered him to halt. I and the others hurried to the spot...Meanwhile the peasants had removed the mans cloak, and were proceeding to unfasten rather roughly a haversack, which he had fastened to his back by cross straps, when he suddenly took a razor from the inner pocket of his vest and drew it several times across is throat. The action was utterly unexpected, so that everybody was taken by surprise; we all drew back in dismay, and nobody interfered when dropping the razor the stranger commenced to walk away. He walked on some forty yards; I then ordered the men to follow and overtake him, when he suddenly collapsed and died at once...I should think he would have been roughly handled and possibly severely beaten when the men discovered from the contents of his knapsack that he was not a German. He killed himself when he saw that his knapsack must inevitably betray him...Schulze collected the effects and gave the papers found to Lieut Brandes. The private effects he kept and gave to Madam Perret, who came on behalf of Mrs Yate from Switzerland in 1917...’

Edit: two typos

[seaforths]

Finally, Lt. Col. Bond’s account regarding Major Yate from 'Prisoners Grave and Gay':
‘...Great stress was laid by the Germans on the fury of the people, and on the fatal consequences that were bound to ensue to any prisoner of war who might be found outside the fortress walls, so that in those first weeks it required a bold man to carry out an escape. Such a man was found in Charles Yate, who was the first to make the attempt. We had last seen Yate standing on the road at Le Cateau. A fortnight later I had chanced to look out of the window of our barrack-room at Torgau early one morning and was astonished and delighted to see him washing himself under the pump. He looked wild and haggard. He had had a thrilling journey across Germany. Carried off from the battlefield in a private car, he had been passed from one headquarters to another. Twice he had made determined efforts to escape, and had been brought back. Finally, labelled dangerous and closely guarded, he was brought to Torgau...he was bent on making another desperate effort to escape or on dying in the attempt. He had somehow acquired and concealed a pair of workmans trousers and a blue overall. He had managed to string together a rope ladder made of up odd bits of equipment, braces and bits of string. He disappeared one night over the parapet and dropped into the ditch, with the assistance of two other officers, Roche and Breen. His plan was to get to Switzerland. There were places on the way to the Swiss frontier where he felt certain of finding a temporary asylum, if necessary, for he knew the country from boyhood, and he intended first to head for the home of his old nurse, who was still alive. His wife was living in Switzerland for reasons of health. Yate learnt the names of all the British officers in Torgau by heart in order to be able to give the tidings of their being alive, should he succeed in getting out of Germany...’

On Major Yates death and recapture:
‘...Even the good chaplain, O’Rourke, who petitioned to be allowed to conduct the service was told that if he were allowed to appear at the funeral as a priest he would be torn to pieces by the mob. The following day I received a message summoning me to the presence of the Commandant. The so-called rope ladder was displayed upon a table, and I was asked if I recognised it. I had not seen it before. A workman’s blue smock and a pair of trousers were then shown to me and I was asked to identify them. These were also unknown to me, but I concluded that they must have been worn by Yate...I was finally asked if I was aware of the nature of any old wounds which Yate showed on his body, and a large cicatrice, which I knew he must have from a wound received in South Africa, was described to me. I felt certain then that he had indeed met his end, but uncertain as to the manner of it. One had to accept the fact he was dead...’

Some things seem a bit strange between Bond’s pieces of writing. First he acknowledges he saw the clothes and ladder Major Yate had and then he denies them in front of the Commandant. I can only surmise from this that he knew and recognised them but lied to the Commandant.

It seems that between the accounts, there is some sense and accuracy to the newspaper reports so far. There is the confirmation of Dresden being one of the destinations to steal a bicycle. There is also confirmation that he was carrying papers or other items that while not betraying his identity by name would perhaps betray his nationality. I am still puzzled as to how the Gendarmerie would know of his German nurse. Given as having a ‘prodigious’ memory (by Padre O’Rorke) who also stated he committed all the officers names to memory, I doubt he would have written down the address of his nurse. Unless of course he made this information known to his visitors from Berlin but that seems rather a silly thing to do if you are intending to make that a part of a future escape route.

[seaforths]

Now...uniforms. This, I'm afraid is the best I can do with the kokade at the moment. I have not interfered in any way with the kokade themselves. I have used the following tools across the entire image; Hue and Saturation, pin cushion distortion and sharpness. This is the result:

From this (as originally from post #1 and other threads on the forum-

To this-

[seaforths]

Zooming into the kokade (with MS Picture manager) the man on the right that seems to have the clearest image it looks like this:

There seems to be no real hint of a white centre to the kokade and this is also true of the others in the photo. That said, there also seems to be no hint of a light cross either in the kokades (which is what I thought I saw before).

[Phil Evans]

Trajan, you could be putting Mick out of a job at this rate.

Mick, I think I owe you a beverage next time we meet.

I have started going over the Liege Feldpost cards again, but only managed to get through about a hundred last night and haven't collated them yet. The early ones are not easy as the franking system doesn't appear to have got established until about November / December 1914. It means I have to rely on the handwritten addresses and we all know my grasp of German script.

I also tried several other sources on events in Louvain, but the only German troops I found mentioned were IR 162 and RID 24. Trying to follow up a Major von Manteffeul (a dead end), turned up this thread, which may throw up a few units. It certainly threw up a few arguments, by what I've read so far.

Wynne has papers at the Liddell Hart Centre, King' College London.

My thoughts on the kokades are that black and red in the centre can be ruled out. Saxon, Bavarian and even Bavarian Landwehr are in the frame.

Phil

[seaforths]

Trajan, you could be putting Mick out of a job at this rate.

Mick, I think I owe you a beverage next time we meet.

I have started going over the Liege Feldpost cards again, but only managed to get through about a hundred last night and haven't collated them yet. The early ones are not easy as the franking system doesn't appear to have got established until about November / December 1914. It means I have to rely on the handwritten addresses and we all know my grasp of German script.

I also tried several other sources on events in Louvain, but the only German troops I found mentioned were IR 162 and RID 24. Trying to follow up a Major von Manteffeul (a dead end), turned up this thread, which may throw up a few units. It certainly threw up a few arguments, by what I've read so far.

Wynne has papers at the Liddell Hart Centre, King' College London.

My thoughts on the kokades are that black and red in the centre can be ruled out. Saxon, Bavarian and even Bavarian Landwehr are in the frame.

Phil

Well I have done the same thing to a Drake Goodman photo (that shows one of the guards) and sourced from here:https://www.flickr.com/photos/drakegoodman/6556707883/in/photostream/

As you can see, now we have a hint of a white centre in the kokade. However, I must point out that if you click on the Drake Goodman link and then hit the right arrow key, there is another image, this time just three men. When I did the same to that image, I got a dark dot in the centre of the kokade. I did find another image not from that site but another site. I came across it round about the same time as the thread was locked. Unfortunately the source identifier that is banded across the image - the site seems to be inaccessible at the moment. These might be more easily identifiable from their Pickles:

EDIT: LOOK AT THE GUY AT THE BOTTOM (FRONT ROW) SECOND IN ON THE RIGHT (AS YOU LOOK AT THE PICTURE) IS THAT HIM AGAIN???

[seaforths]

Nice work guys on the translations. Sorry I'm not much use at least I have another word in my vocabulary (Schloss)! Before I do anything else on uniforms, I will try and piece the bits of translations dotted around in the last few posts together from the Berliner Tageblat for 22 and 26 September and add them to the Word doc for newspaper articles.

Phil, I have another book to look at yet about the German forces in Belgium 1914 but I thought I would try and work my way through my Herman Otto leads first. I have no idea where the Liddel Hart centre is and whether his papers would be accessible. Are they available online? They would make interesting reading I'm sure.

[seaforths]

Is this now the complete and correct translation for the Berliner Tageblat for 26 September? Also, I can't work out what the translation for the 22 September should read? Can someone write that one out for me in full please & thank you

'Berliner Tageblatt - 26 September 1914

Major Yate's Funeral

(Telegraph from our correspondents)

Torgau, 25 September

Yesterday, in the cemetery of the village Martinskirchen at Mühlenberg, the burial took place quietly of the English Mayor Yate, who escaped on Saturday from Torgau, and who cut his throat upon capture in the vicinity of the village of Martinskirchen. His English comrades sent a large floral wreath there. In the earlier report it was stated that Yate was found to be in possession of a note written in a different hand, indicating the walking/marching route from Torgau to Dresden, which seemed to suggest that another person had had a hand in the venture. That is not correct: the place names, one of which was wrong, were in fact written in Latin printed characters, as is the convention in the British Army for proper names.'

[seaforths]

Now look at this guy:

'This is a photo of a young Prussian N.C.O. circa 1912 in his dress uniform. His tunic is Dunkelblau (Dark Blue), his trousers are black with red side seam piping. The dark band of his hat, the standing collar and Brandenburg cuff are red. The lace trim at the collar and cuff is gold, and indicates his rank as an N.C.O. The lack of N.C.O. disks on the collar indicate his rank as Unteroffizier, a rank between corporal and Sergeant. He is wearing a marksman's lanyard with one acorn, the lowest qualification as a marksman. His belt buckle is brass with a silver badge in the center, unchanged since 1847. The badge has the Prussian king's crown in the center and the Prussian State Motto, Gott Mit Uns (God is With Us), surrounding the crown. He is wearing a bayonet and bayonet knot. The colored bands of the bayonet knot would indicate which company this soldier belonged to. The buttons on his shoulder boards would also have the company number on them. '

Source: http://www.worldwar1.com/sfgeruni.htm

Now then, are our chaps Prussians???

[trajan]

"In the earlier report it was stated that Yate was found to be in possession of a note written in a different hand, indicating the walking/marching route from Torgau to Dresden, which seemed to suggest that another person had had a hand in the venture. That is not correct: the place names, one of which was wrong, were in fact written in Latin printed characters, as is the convention in the British Army for proper names."

Mick

Thanks yet again Mick!

Julian

[trajan]

Is this now the complete and correct translation for the Berliner Tageblat for 26 September? Also, I can't work out what the translation for the 22 September should read? Can someone write that one out for me in full please & thank you

Yes, your transcript of the the 26 Sept account seems fine to me. Kids and class preparation for tomorrow permitting, I'll try to get around to the 22 September one later. It is pretty straightforward (I think!).

Trajan

EDIT - PS: Oh, and yes, better add Father's day celebrations to the permitting circumstances!

[seaforths]

Post no. 73 The other side of the card is written out and dated June 1915 sent from Hannover to someone in Berlin:

http://www.dutchmilitaria.com/products-page/photographs/wwi-german-groupphoto-early-war/

If that link doesn't work try http://dutchmilitaria.com and then click on the postcards on the right hand side.

[seaforths]

Yes, your transcript of the the 26 Sept account seems fine to me. Kids and class preparation for tomorrow permitting, I'll try to get around to the 22 September one later. It is pretty straightforward (I think!).

Trajan

EDIT - PS: Oh, and yes, better add Father's day celebrations to the permitting circumstances!

Thank you Trajan - in your own time with the 22nd translation - I will just keep my eye open for it. Y'all have a lovely Father's Day.

I will plod on with my 'Ottos' I think there is a good chance they are Bavarians with Major Yate and I am playing devli's advocate with the other two images I posted, much as Trajan with the Saxons. I would hate for us not to explore all the avenues and eliminate them properly. It would be good to get an i.d. on that group of June 1915 though..

[Phil Evans]

Marjorie,

These are four books I have come across referring to 1914 Belgium, a couple of which I have previously referred to:

German Posters in Belgium

The German Fury in Belgium

Belgians Under The German Eagle

Belgium & Germany

The Liddell Hart Centre for Military Archives. Unfortunately only the catalogue is available online.

I may have found another Bavarian Feldpost card, sent from Aaachen, 20th August 1914, but the place name occurs in the Rhineland as well. I believe it is Weiden, but I can't read where it is near (Amberg?). If I search "Hauptstrasse, Weiden, I only get the Rhineland one come up. There is no unit name to go by either.

My Heroldsberg man's unit were still in the area in February 1915 and I now have a franking stamp with the full unit name.

[seaforths]

Marjorie,

These are four books I have come across referring to 1914 Belgium, a couple of which I have previously referred to:

German Posters in Belgium

The German Fury in Belgium

Belgians Under The German Eagle

Belgium & Germany

The Liddell Hart Centre for Military Archives. Unfortunately only the catalogue is available online.

I may have found another Bavarian Feldpost card, sent from Aaachen, 20th August 1914, but the place name occurs in the Rhineland as well. I believe it is Weiden, but I can't read where it is near (Amberg?). If I search "Hauptstrasse, Weiden, I only get the Rhineland one come up. There is no unit name to go by either.

From Aachen crop.jpg

My Heroldsberg man's unit were still in the area in February 1915 and I now have a franking stamp with the full unit name.

Well done you getting a clear frank! Weidon page is winging its way to you via email - too big for here and you need a clear image to be able to read it.

Edit: The German Terror book that I was using is on the archives.org site but I don't have the link for it anymore. I do have the German Posters one as well but I have a couple of modern tomes that I haven't yet checked one is an iBook so quickly searchable but the other is a paper book. I will go back to the books when I've finished Otto-ing!

[trajan]

Thank you Trajan - in your own time with the 22nd translation - I will just keep my eye open for it. Y'all have a lovely Father's Day.

I will plod on with my 'Ottos' I think there is a good chance they are Bavarians with Major Yate and I am playing devli's advocate with the other two images I posted, much as Trajan with the Saxons. I would hate for us not to explore all the avenues and eliminate them properly. It would be good to get an i.d. on that group of June 1915 though..

Devil's advocate is necessary, as all needs to be out in the clear so that we can get down to the kernel eventually, even though it is taking a while! I personally doubt that those guys are Saxons... A gut feeling based - as in the original and now locked post - on those Gew.88 and 71/84 bayonets: I have no quarrel with SS on those and yes, the Bavarians did use them long after 1905 or so. But I still haven't sorted out unit markings for the 71/84 yet, so I'll try to do that soon, and then get back to the 22nd Sept. transcript!

[seaforths]

Trajan, look at Wyliecoyote's posts again in the original thread. I am sure he said something about the bayonets not being tied to Bavarians. I wonder if he could identify that unit of 1915 I posted. I will mail the back of it to you. It has a generic Hannover postmark but handwritten feld-post across the top.

Phil, another email winging its way to you. This one with an Aachen page under StaBenbahnen is Weiden maybe that word means main roads because afterwards follows the list of street names - I've attached the Aachen map as well. I will get on the laptop in a few minutes and check my other German maps. I know I don't have the southern border area because I have struggled in that area before (as you know) but I might have the northern area.

[trajan]

Trajan, look at Wyliecoyote's posts again in the original thread. I am sure he said something about the bayonets not being tied to Bavarians. I wonder if he could identify that unit of 1915 I posted. I will mail the back of it to you. It has a generic Hannover postmark but handwritten feld-post across the top.

I quite agree! The devil, as usual, is in the detail...

I need to double check thoroughly, but on a quick read-through, well, according to the late Anthony Carter, the doyen of German bayonet studies (but working on what was known to him in the 1990's), the 71/84 was in service with various non-Bavarian units into WW1, if mainly machine gunners and medical corpsmen - and medics were considered as part of the 'Train'. E.g., a 71.84 bayonet marking '16.T.S.2.19' is accredited to the Train-Abteilung Nr. 16, Sanitatskompagnie nr. 2, Waffe 19.

I could give other examples but that is enough for now!

So, yes, WW1 use of those 71/84's (and so the Gew. 88) was not exclusive to Bavarian units - this (and the uniform colour) is of course where our sparring partner got off on the wrong foot... Now, I haven't found a Saxon 'reserve' unit that might have been using this toy in August WW1, but I have found a fair number of 71/84's with Saxon markings, not all necessarily of WW1 date, although those with machine-gun company and Sanitatskompagnie marks are certainly candidates for WW1 use.

Trajan

[seaforths]

I've now downloaded 87 lots of records for Herman/Hermann Otto and have been able to sort and segregate into date/place of birth folders so I now have 36 of these Otto candidates to go through their records. What a NIGHTMARE they were! In true Ancestry style a single individual might have 4-5 pages of records dotted across a couple of Ancestry pages so I had to sort them out. At least they are done now and I can start to go through them and weed out some of them. I couldn't ditch the Saxe, Prussian and Wurtenberg ones as they were their places of birth but they served with Bavarian units. Coincidentally, one of them came from Martinkirchen (where Major Yate was buried).

Enough for tonight, I will start to go through them tomorrow evening...

Phil the other two books I have that are not old ones are the Heather Jones book - Acts of Violence against POWs, which I thought might be worth checking and the other one I have is the Horne/Kramer book German Atrocities a History of Denial. I did have a Belgian book - a huge thing that I rescued from behind a radiator in a second hand book shop. It was about German atrocities in Belgium during 1914 and published in France but because I couldn't read it very well as it had been written in French, I sent it to someone in Belgium who auctioned it off for charity. However, I was interested in the subject matter so I got the Horne/Kramer book. I haven't had chance to read it yet but I think both of these books might be worth me checking in the coming week. The Jones book will be quick as it is on the iPad so I can search key words. The other book has a good index but is paper so will take a bit longer but both books are going on for 700 pages.

Edit: just ran a quick search in the Jones book on Bavarians and got 35 hits. I will explore them later in the week when I've finished with the Herr Otto files!

[seaforths]

Soooo, still going through my Herman Otto men looking for a possible unit for for him at Louvain and I notice that 'Hohern Stabe' comes up with a couple of them. I put it into Babylon translator and it gives me Hohern Staff. I am still only slightly wiser in that stabe must mean staff but Hohern...?? Are they worth following up or not? I get the feeling Hohern might be a location or a unit but not sure. If anyone can assist please I would be grateful and thank you

[Phil Evans]

Try "Higher Staff"

Phil

[seaforths]

Try "Higher Staff"

Phil

Danke schon Phil! I am nearly half way through making a summary list of their service without checking their records proper but I think once I do look at their record sheets quite a few of the later ones with DOBs at around 1896 and 1897 will not have been serving in 1914 and I will be able to eliminate them quite quickly.

I pulled the Horne & Kramer book this morning and it has a lot on Bavarians but I will leave that till last because it covers France as well as Belgium and I suspect that most of the Bavarian activity will be around the Alsace area, which is one of the other reasons why I bought it. It gives me some background reading on the area of some of my other POWs that met a suspicious end.