Capture of Major Yate

[Phil Evans]

Good to see you all again!

Attached and legible (hopefully), is a piece in the Laibacher Zeitung on 26th September 1914.

The source document is here.

As some will know, my German translation skills are nonexistent and whilst I don't think it adds anything, other than a general view on the dissemination of news, I may have missed something.

Phil

Edited to correct date of document

From Laibacher Zeitung 26th September 1914.pdf

Edited 9 June , 2014 by Phil Evans

[Phil Evans]

Having sorted my own chaotic post out, I have now found the second half of the article in Post#2. It was on the next page!

[seaforths]

Oh thanks Phil - nice to see you back and just in time by the look of it - I would have stood no chance in finding it! I used to work with some Germans and their English was perfect but they would cuss in German so erm you can imagine what the little German I know consists of and not printable here.

It occurs to me that there are still a couple of loose ends left over from the previous thread that I should address here before moving onto other stuff. I did mention something on his file by a Miss Cox, who I suspect might have been a civilian internee. That information is as follows:

‘Information furnished by a Miss? Cox includes the statement that “Yates (British Officer) escaped from Doberitz dressed as a workman. He was captured when applying for work as a workman and was shot.’

Shortly after locating the above information I came across the following information online:

' ...In spite of the gallant efforts of Major C. A. L. Yate, (Major Yate was awarded a posthumous V.C. He escaped from his prison camp in Germany and was found near Berlin with his throat cut.) who commanded the firing line, the end came soon afterwards...' Source: http://1914ancien.free.fr/edmochp8.htm

I think that someone has already mentioned somewhere, wondering - was Yate taken to Berlin perhaps? Bond does say that he arrived at Torgau from Magdeburg and via several headquarters. There is certainly room to either dismiss the above as rumour or, consideration that he might have been taken to Berlin after all although these two statements are confusing one makes reference to 'near Berlin' and Dobertiz is closer to Berlin that Torgau. That would mean to arrive just after the others, he must have been moved from the front before them and quite quickly...the boys in Berlin visited him at Torgau on the 16th September.

I have to go back to typing as I didn't get as far as I had hoped with the movements...

[seaforths]

Good to see you all again!

Attached and legible (hopefully), is a piece in the Laibacher Zeitung on 26th September 1914.

The source document is here.

As some will know, my German translation skills are nonexistent and whilst I don't think it adds anything, other than a general view on the dissemination of news, I may have missed something.

Phil

Edited to correct date of document

Your article - Got it! Previous thread page 9 post 213 (TRAJAN)

(Selbstmord eines englische Majors.) Wie bereits gemeldet, ist vor einigen Tagen der englische Major Charles Alice Yate, der von den deutschen Truppen gefangen genommen wurde, geflüchtet. Wie nun berichtet wird, hat Major Jäte Selbstmord verübt. Unter den Arbeitern, die sich auf einer bei Torgau gelegenen Zuckerfabrik zur Rübeukampagne anmelden wollten, fiel ein hochgewachsener Mann auf, zu dessen schäbiger Kleidung sein übriges Äußeres nicht zu passen schien. Der Zucker-fabrikdirektor hielt den Freunden an und forschte ihn aus. Da die Antworten des Mannes seinen Verdacht bestätigen, ließ er ihn durch Arbeiter untersuchen. Man nahm ihm dabei eine Handtasche ab, die eine Menge Aufzeichnungen in englischer Sprache enthielt. Während man noch die Papiere prüfte, zog der Fremde blitzschnell ein Rasiermesser hervor und durchschnitt sich die Kehle. Er verblutete in wenigen Minuten. Der Fremde war der Major Charles Alice Yate.

"(Suicide of an English major.) As already reported, a few days ago the English Major Charles Alice Yate, who was captured by German troops, escaped. As we will now report, Major Yate has committed suicide. Among the workers who were waiting to register for a beet-picking campaign near a sugar factory at Torgau, a tall man whose shabby clothing did not seem to fit him, stood out [from the rest]. The sugar-factory’s director called his friends to establish who he was. Since the man's answers seemed to confirm his suspicions [as to his identity] he had him searched by his workers. They took from him there a handbag that contained a lot of records in English. While they were examining the papers the stranger quickly pulled out a razor and cut his throat. He bled to death in minutes. The stranger was Major Charles Alice Yate."

I have just trawled through many pages of the previous thread and I will make a table later just based on newspaper articles alone. There is an added complication that as more articles emerge some might be duplicate finds of the same paper. If I do that then at least if we find an article, it gives us something to check it against. It can also be checked before searching a newspaper if someone else has already done that particular paper and found an article in it - so hope it will help.

[trajan]

Good to see you all again!

Attached and legible (hopefully), is a piece in the Laibacher Zeitung on 26th September 1914.

The source document is here.

As some will know, my German translation skills are nonexistent and whilst I don't think it adds anything, other than a general view on the dissemination of news, I may have missed something.

Phil

Edited to correct date of document

Thanks Phil,

As it is, we had that one on the original thread at post no. 213, but thanks for cross-referencing it!

Post 213 reads:

"Well, this is what that newspaper reported - transcript and approximate translation.

(Selbstmord eines englische Majors.) Wie bereits gemeldet, ist vor einigen Tagen der englische Major Charles Alice Yate, der von den deutschen Truppen gefangen genommen wurde, geflüchtet. Wie nun berichtet wird, hat Major Jäte Selbstmord verübt. Unter den Arbeitern, die sich auf einer bei Torgau gelegenen Zuckerfabrik zur Rübeukampagne anmelden wollten, fiel ein hochgewachsener Mann auf, zu dessen schäbiger Kleidung sein übriges Äußeres nicht zu passen schien. Der Zucker-fabrikdirektor hielt den Freunden an und forschte ihn aus. Da die Antworten des Mannes seinen Verdacht bestätigen, ließ er ihn durch Arbeiter untersuchen. Man nahm ihm dabei eine Handtasche ab, die eine Menge Aufzeichnungen in englischer Sprache enthielt. Während man noch die Papiere prüfte, zog der Fremde blitzschnell ein Rasiermesser hervor und durchschnitt sich die Kehle. Er verblutete in wenigen Minuten. Der Fremde war der Major Charles Alice Yate.

"(Suicide of an English major.) As already reported, a few days ago the English Major Charles Alice Yate, who was captured by German troops, escaped. As we will now report, Major Yate has committed suicide. Among the workers who were waiting to register for a beet-picking campaign near a sugar factory at Torgau, a tall man whose shabby clothing did not seem to fit him, stood out [from the rest]. The sugar-factory’s director called his friends to establish who he was. Since the man's answers seemed to confirm his suspicions [as to his identity] he had him searched by his workers. They took from him there a handbag that contained a lot of records in English. While they were examining the papers the stranger quickly pulled out a razor and cut his throat. He bled to death in minutes. The stranger was Major Charles Alice Yate."

Siege Gunner then came in at post 219 on the original thread with this in reply to that post :

"'As already reported' refers to an earlier report of his escape, not of his capture.

In the same piece, I think there is a mistake in 'Der Zucker-fabrikdirektor hielt den Freunden an und forschte ihn aus', and it should be 'den Fremden', not 'den Freunden', so it should be translated as 'The sugar factory manager stopped the stranger and questioned him'.

As regards S>S's latest photo of Fort Zinna, I'm afraid I can't agree with his identification of the 'location of the photo', as there are definitely more openings in the wall that ought to be visible if the photo of Yate with the German soldiers had been taken there."

I agreed in a later post that Siege Gunner's reading of that part was correct.

Trajan

EDIT: Whoops! Sorry Seaforths - I am kinda rushed and did not read down to the next post after Phil's and so have repeated yours - but I also added the supplement put in by SiegeGunner. Will try to get on to the German papers later but the extra bit added in post 16 above from Phil Evans does not add much... Just about Yate's German background mainly...

[seaforths]

Thanks Trajan,

I think it makes that I do a separate table over newspaper reports. It will help that people are not checking the same newspaper twice and hopefully then we won't have to back and forth between the threads to see which newspaper said what. I will do it along the lines of:

Date, Newspaper/Publication name, translation of article, source.

I will update it as and when anything else surfaces. I will be interested to see what that article says (the one I cropped to death) it seems a bit random compared to the others and I don't know whether it was originated from Berlin as the others were - I couldn't see anything to indicate that but hey! Who am I to talk I couldn't even work out the rest was on another page!

[trajan]

Believe you me, I do understand the problems of your correlating all these bits all over again! But there again a new thread allows the information to be brought together in a comprehensive and manageable way.

OK, a quick summary translation of what was posted above (quick as I have to make dinner(!)) - and so a continuation from what I posted earlier. It's all about how Mrs Yate was born in Ludwigslust, the daughter of the retired steelmaker Peter. Yate's father was something or the other in somewhere in England. Then something about the upbringing of Yate [a kindergarten in Germany?] before finishing with how she had a photograph of him that she gave to the Jandarma, who passed it on to the General Command .

I don't have the time right now or probably for another day or so to do it properly, but the general gist of that last bit seems clear - she had a photograph of Yate that she gave to the local police who passed it on to the General Command for proof of identity. That is extremely interesting, given the apparent date of the article (26th August 1914! which is when he was captured!) - but you need to check the newspaper date and we need someone who knows Kurrent schrift (and German!) better than me to double-check the last bit. I don't want to cause any over-excitement here but if the newspaper article is indeed 26 August, which IIRC was when Yate was captured, then news travelled very fast, and Mrs Yate was already being asked about his identity...

Trajan

[Phil Evans]

Trajan,

Sorry to disappoint you but it is dated 26th September.

I agree about tabulating the articles. I didn't come in until late in the original thread and with the hours I spent trawling the Feldpost cards, didn't spend as much time as I should going over the old posts.

I will post later (just got in from work) on what I have covered over the past few days, to avoid anyone else covering the same ground.

Phil

[seaforths]

True - I worked out the date. The rest may as well be written in Wingdings such are my abysmal language skills. Interesting nonetheless that someone has provided the information and it possibly links to something I said earlier about him still having relatives in Germany that might have been in correspondence with Mrs Yate in Switzerland. The hotel as Indefatigable pointed out was in a pretty remote location. I don't think it was an accident that she just happened to get the right German paper with photo although the other articles seem to have been fairly widespread.

I will be on the PC in about 30 mins to do that newspaper table but once done, it might be interesting to plot out on a map where these articles are popping up in Germany. I did post his birth details on the old thread but it will be quicker for me to find on his file than trawl through the posts. I wonder if that article was from a newspaper close to where his mother's family lived?

[Phil Evans]

While Seaforths is typing ...........

I think that the main contenders, if the Yate photo originally appeared in the German controlled Press are:

Swiss: "Schweizer Illustrierte Zeitung"

German: ''Leipzig Illustrierte Zeitung ”

"Berliner Illustrierte Zeitung"

“Münchner Illustrierte Zeitung”

“Süddeutsche Illustrierte Zeitung / Frankfurter Illustrierte Zeitung”

Or possibly - Dutch: "Panorama"

Over the last couple of evenings I have been going through the Spanish “La Unión ilustrada”, from late August 1914 to the end of the year. No luck with the photo, but I did notice a lot of their photos credited to “Berliner” and one to the “Leipzig Illustrierte Zeitung”.

[SiegeGunner]

Translation of Phil's newspaper item:

"Major Yate born a German

Our correspondent in Lübeck informs us that the English prisoner of war Major Yate, who escaped from captivity in Torgau and then, according to one report, committed suicide, and according to another made good his escape and is still at large, was actually born in Ludwigsluft, on 14 March 1879, at No 19 Kirchenplatz. His mother was a native of Ludwigsluft, the daughter of a former stable master/head groom named Peters. The father of Major Yate was a vicar in Madeley in England. The wife of Herr Wüsthoff, master cabinetmaker of Ludwigsluft, was a nursery nurse in his household in England for many years. This lady was still in possession of a photograph of Major Yate, which she gave to the Gendarmerie, which has forwarded it to the military authorities."

[seaforths]

Translation of Phil's newspaper item:

"Major Yate born a German

Our correspondent in Lübeck informs us that the English prisoner of war Major Yate, who escaped from captivity in Torgau and then, according to one report, committed suicide, and according to another made good his escape and is still at large, was actually born in Ludwigsluft, on 14 March 1879, at No 19 Kirchenplatz. His mother was a native of Ludwigsluft, the daughter of a former stable master/head groom named Peters. The father of Major Yate was a vicar in Madeley in England. The wife of Herr Wüsthoff, master cabinetmaker of Ludwigsluft, was a nursery nurse in his household in England for many years. This lady was still in possession of a photograph of Major Yate, which she gave to the Gendarmerie, which has forwarded it to the military authorities."

Many thanks Siege Gunner! I was just about to post the Word Doc when I caught your translation so was able to fill that bit in before posting. I might try manually searching that newspaper again because the OCR picked up the article originally but then I've found OCR on newspaper searches isn't very reliable at all. It seems there was some ?local? interest in him in that area of Germany.

I was going to convert the attached doc to PDF but it might be easier left as word then others can amend it if they find anything - just need to add extra rows as required.

I have found a Magdeburg newspaper here:http://library.fes.de/cgi-bin/populo/zeitung.pl?year=1914&f_MMM=vsm1914&t_jahrvsm so I am about to take a look at that for August/September before plodding on with my other movements document.

Here is the newspaper article doc:

NEWSPAPER ARTICLES.docx

Phil, found a link for the Liepzig Illustrierte Zeitung but I think it is just information about who holds it because it doesn't seem to open anything up but will try it again later - still more typing to do...

[Phil Evans]

Not guilty - it was Seaforth's article.

Thank you Mick. You must be pulling your Summer haircut out watching the amateurs struggling.

Phil

[seaforths]

Not guilty - it was Seaforth's article.

Thank you Mick. You must be pulling your Summer haircut out watching the amateurs struggling.

Phil

Well, I will claim page 1 and page 2 was yours! My German is getting better! Not only can I find my way from the bahnhof to the friedhof I can go there on a pferde !

Sorry, shouldn't be here - Magdeburg is hurting my eyes (no pictures) and much of it is not readable in any language the quality is so bad in places.

[seaforths]

I found something in the Magdeburg newspaper it was a list really but I could understand bits of it and it mentioned Nr.7 Train Battalion, Munster. I did a search and this is what I found: http://www.kaisersbunker.com/gtp/New/train0.htm

Adds something to TRAJAN's theory reading the information on the Saxon train guard uniform if the men in the photograph were train battalion. Of course they could have been guards to get prisoners from wherever they were being held to their point of entrainment at which time they would be handed over to the train battalion.

Also more here:http://www.krausehouse.ca/krause/GermanArmyOrganization.htm
SAXON ARMY CORPS X11
1st Royal Saxon Train Battalion No. 12
2nd Company
•Seit dem 1. Oktober 1913 war Bischofswerda Garnisonsstadt und Standort für die 2. Kompanie des 1. Sächsischen Trainbatallions. ... Since October 1, 1913 Bischofswerda was a garrison town and location for the 2nd Company of the 1st Saxon Train batallions. [ http://www.bischofswerda.de/stadt/historie.htm ]
•Königlich-Sächsische Armee um 1900/14 (1. Nr. Sächsische Armee, 2. Nr. Reichsheer) ... Königl.-Sächs. Train-Bataillon Nr. 12 - Dresden Brucker-Lager-Marsch von J. Kral ..[ .http://www.blasmusik-sachsen.de/archiv_blaeserpost/2002_01/artikel_01.html [
•Supply Troops ... Kgl. Sächs. 1. Train-Bataillon Nr.12 ... [http://www.wartimememories.co.uk/greatwar/centralpowers/index.html ] Train Battalions of the German empire in 1914
Regiment and Garrison Cuff Pattern & Color Straps Wappen Kgl. Sächs. 1. Train-Bataillon Nr.12
(Dresden/Bischofswerda) XII Armee Korps Black Sachsen (Saxon) Pattern Blue "Squared" Strap Piped in Red w/ Red 12 Gilt Sachsen Wappen on Gilt Star
Train Batl. Nr. 12 wore a light blue Waffenrock with black collar and cuffs piped in red.

Edit: more information added

[Indefatigable]

Gott im himmel!!

Once I have read all what Seaforths has recently posted with all those links if nothing else I'm going to know more about the Germany Army than I realised I needed to know.

Well Done!

regards and many thanks

Indefatigable

[Phil Evans]

I'm confused ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Drake Goodman has a photo here attributed to Kgl. Sächs. 1. Train-Bataillon Nr.12.

However, the collar and cuffs aren't black. Furthermore, he states that the Train-Bataillons are akin to the British ASC Train troops, not providing guards for the railway system.

Phil

[SiegeGunner]

Furthermore, he states that the Train-Bataillons are akin to the British ASC Train troops, not providing guards for the railway system.

I would expect 'Train' in German to mean 'train' in the sense of supply train, baggage train, not anything specifically to do with railways (although I suppose 'Train' troops would sometimes collect supplies etc from railheads, goods yards and the like).

Mick

[seaforths]

I'm confused ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Drake Goodman has a photo here attributed to Kgl. Sächs. 1. Train-Bataillon Nr.12.

However, the collar and cuffs aren't black. Furthermore, he states that the Train-Bataillons are akin to the British ASC Train troops, not providing guards for the railway system.

Phil

I would expect 'Train' in German to mean 'train' in the sense of supply train, baggage train, not anything specifically to do with railways (although I suppose 'Train' troops would sometimes collect supplies etc from railheads, goods yards and the like).

Mick

Sorry for the confusion!

I think that the Train Battalions are as our ASC and do wonder if it is Saxon Train that TRAJAN has been looking at with their light blue uniforms and black collar & cuffs which is why I posted the information so it could be checked out. If the guards in the photograph with Yate are Saxon, they would presumably have to belong to the Saxon Train. However it might not be that far fetched, as it was a Saxon regiment that captured the KOYLI. Therefore would not their train personnel be in the area in a supporting role? I would have thought that the photograph was taken when either they got him from the battlefield or before they entrained him.

One thing that is niggling me is that I do think I can see the hint of a cross on the kokade of one of the men (hence my earlier post on the Landwehr crosses on kokade with the link) also the information you posted Phil about Bavarians in the Liege area bears out the consensus of others (including Drake Goodman) in believing that they are Bavarian. Unfortunately, as I said in the other thread because of the chromatography issues, it is difficult to deal with the uniforms and kokade in a meaningful way. I have an image of a young Prussian his uniform looks the same as those in the photograph the uniform does not look particularly dark (uniforms fade as do old photographs). I did run some experiments with kokade and converting to B & W then adjusting the depth of vision on clear modern images of kokade, I could even pale out a Prussian kokade. However, there seems to be little doubt that the chap in the Yate photo is the same as the chap in Goodman's image.

Happy to be corrected on any of this and I have accumulated a lot of images on Le Cateau, Cambrai and Mons and willing to post them at some point but I would like to also take a look at Liege too. I'm sure TRAJAN will be along in the fullness of time with his thoughts and information but at least this thread can tick along at a more sedate pace than the last one seemed to do. I finished the detailed movements and have now decided to expand the capture details further which I started on this morning before I had to go to work. I'm only just in so will pick it up again but this time I will amalgamate into Excel (oh joy - I hate Excel). The reason for expanding those is that in many accounts names of others were mentioned but in the interests of speed and brevity, I condensed the accounts down probably too far and putting that information in means it links can be established between the accounts.

I will also do some digging around on Major Yate's German roots later if I don't run out of time...

[Phil Evans]

I zoomed the kokades in a while ago and two of them did seem to pixellate with the hint of the same pattern in the centre. I wouldn't like to say whether it was a cross, or not, though.

Before I duplicate information again, can anyone tell me if the article in the 26th September issue of the "Berliner Tageblatt und Handels-Zeitung", on Yate's burial, has already featured.

[seaforths]

Yate file; Breen recalls his conversations with Yate prior to escape and discussing their escape plan (for originally they were both escaping):

‘...His plan was to travel to Dresden on foot and there obtain a couple of bicycles and try to reach the Swiss frontier. I suggested the actual place and method of leaving the camp. We agreed, and we worked out the detail together...’

After the interview in the Commandant’s office by the two German Officers from Berlin, their plans changed drastically, as Breen recounts:

‘Immediately after the interview he came to me to say that he was not quite clear as to what the German Military Authorities were aiming at, but the German Officers had tried by cross-examination to obtain an admission on his part that he had been engaged on Intelligence work in Germany before the War. He did not know what the next step would be. He was very reticent on this subject and he did not say definitely to me whether he had been engaged on work of this kind or not. I remember that I reminded him that the usage of war and, I thought, even a definite clause in the Hague Convention, precluded the prosecution of a prisoner of war for espionage committed before the outbreak of hostilities. We agreed however that the matter was serious and that the German Military Authorities, (as events have shewn later) were not likely to recognise any usage of written convention when they had decided on a course of action...I urged him to postpone his attempt, but he refused. His wife was ill in Switzerland; he would try to reach Switzerland, as he knew S. Germany; furthermore the improvement of the defences of the camp might in future make escape much more difficult...’

Information here on Ludwigslust for those who can do German (that's if I haven't managed to crop it to death with an iPhone this time):



I can only surmise that his knowledge of southern Germany came from being there pre-war. I think that S78 might be able to expand on that when he has dealt his pressing distractions and returns to the fold...

I wonder how the Gendarmerie traced down his old nursery nurse? Judging by Mick's translation of the newspaper article, there was confusion in the press as to whether he was still alive and at large and that might account for the confused version from Miss Cox regarding Doberitz. I will plod on with the newspapers when I have finished my typing tasks...You wouldn’t have thought that his old nursery maid's photograph of him would have been such a recent one unless he, or his family remained in correspondence with her.

Interestingly, his file indicates that the Germans where open to the idea that he could be exhumed if that was requested. It will be interesting to see what the CWGC have on him when the release their records because he was exhumed and moved after the war.

[seaforths]

I zoomed the kokades in a while ago and two of them did seem to pixellate with the hint of the same pattern in the centre. I wouldn't like to say whether it was a cross, or not, though.

Before I duplicate information again, can anyone tell me if the article in the 26th September issue of the "Berliner Tageblatt und Handels-Zeitung", on Yate's burial, has already featured.

Not that I know of Phil, I posted all the articles we have in a Word Document at post #26

On the kokade - when I took it into pixel level, it made it worse I will try and have another play around with it later.

[Phil Evans]

It will have to wait for tomorrow night now, but the "Berliner Tageblatt und Handels-Zeitung" has articles on Yate on both the 22nd and 26th September. I don't think there is anything profound in them, so don't get excited.

Phil

[seaforths]

It will have to wait for tomorrow night now, but the "Berliner Tageblatt und Handels-Zeitung" has articles on Yate on both the 22nd and 26th September. I don't think there is anything profound in them, so don't get excited.

Phil

Sorry for the delay just got in from work a little over an hour ago. The article I found from the Rosenheimer Anzeiger the other night, I compared word for word with the other papers and that was how I translated it (cheating I know). It might be that the articles you have found are the same as one of the others. Although they were the same I thought I would enter it anyway as it gives an idea of the coverage he was getting plus, I will also know not to search those particular papers again.

Here, at last with the more thorough movements of the men. I have amalgamated with the other document in the previous thread. I tried Excel but I hate it and it drove me crackers so I have left it in Word but increased the page size as big as I can get it. I've also coloured it so when you scroll across, you know where you are.

UPDATED FILE NOW ON PAGE 3 AT POST #53

I'm going to have a look and see if I can find any KOSB accounts. It has occurred to me that some of them were taken POW but reading through these accounts, I haven't seen any mention of any of their men. Then I will have another play around with that photo again...

[Phil Evans]

Thanks for that. I'll give it a proper read when I've got more time to take it in.

Here is the Berliner Zageblatt article for the 22nd September 1914, reporting on his death.

The links to the source are on the document.

Berliner Tageblatt 22.09.14 rev1.pdf