Capture of Major Yate

[Muerrisch]

Two months, surely ........... whatever happened to October 1914?

[trajan]

Two months, surely ........... whatever happened to October 1914?

Thanks Grumpy - it's 19:30, and I agree with you, need to give the brain a rest and in my case go and get dinner...

Afiyet olsun to all of you when you have yours!

[seaforths]

Well...tentative enquiry with a PM to Forton just sent. He used the image in 'Meeting the Enemy' but in his acknowledgements and sources I was unable to find a reference for the image. I just figured it might be 'IWM' many of the images the writers use seem to be attributed to IWM. However long shot though it is, I've asked him if he could let me know his source. I will post any response unless he pops in himself.

[seaforths]

Sorry Martin,

meant to add to my previous that it would be good if a publications expert saw it and perhaps Grumpy will make a find in his searching thus addressing its first appearance here. However, I would have thought it would be pre-dated by an appearance in Germany or France first. A few images of captured British POWs in my search last night of 2 illustrated German publications but not him.

[Guest]

Sorry Martin,

meant to add to my previous that it would be good if a publications expert saw it and perhaps Grumpy will make a find in his searching thus addressing its first appearance here. However, I would have thought it would be pre-dated by an appearance in Germany or France first. A few images of captured British POWs in my search last night of 2 illustrated German publications but not him.

In my very limited experience, searching newspaper archives is an arcane skill (which I don't have). There are people out there who know newspaper archives like the back of their hand . I suspect the 'key' to unlock this is the border. It is very distinctive. I have access to the British Newspaper Archives which are almost all regional newspapers. None have similar borders, so there is potentially a process of elimination to go through. Also if you believe the dates, simply searching Nov 1914 and newspapers will throw up lots of images and one can quickly eliminate major papers such as the Times etc... Few regional papers have photos of that quality. In one of the web images of the picture there is a sliver of an article on the left with another picture. The frames of the pictures give me a sense that it might be a pictorial magazine rather than a newspaper. XYZ illustrated, Picture Post etc... just a thought.

One of the web articles that used the paper acknowledge the madeleylocal history website for the image. If you have not already tried them I would at least eliminate this potential avenue.... Just a thought. Apologies if this is grandmothers and eggs. MG

[seaforths]

In my very limited experience, searching newspaper archives is an arcane skill (which I don't have). There are people out there who know newspaper archives like the back of their hand . I suspect the 'key' to unlock this is the border. It is very distinctive. I have access to the British Newspaper Archives which are almost all regional newspapers. None have similar borders, so there is potentially a process of elimination to go through. Also if you believe the dates, simply searching Nov 1914 and newspapers will throw up lots of images and one can quickly eliminate major papers such as the Times etc... Few regional papers have photos of that quality. In one of the web images of the picture there is a sliver of an article on the left with another picture. The frames of the pictures give me a sense that it might be a pictorial magazine rather than a newspaper. XYZ illustrated, Picture Post etc... just a thought.

One of the web articles that used the paper acknowledge the madeleylocal history website for the image. If you have not alreadly tried them I would at least eliminate this potential avenue.... Just a thought. Apologies if this is grandmothers and eggs. MG

No, not at all grandmothers/eggs etc. Interesting points indeed and perhaps it is quite possible it is the border that Grumpy is identifying with too. I am of the intention, in a moment, to make a table of all the points Grumpy has requested and put them in that table, I will include the press sightings of articles relating to Major Yate and their dates of publication. Some of these articles do allude to a photograph preceding them, some don't but I will ensure I make a distinction between them when I enter them.

I have to go check files dates etc. I know many off pat but would need to look at others and it would ensure accuracy if I worked through methodically - although his file was anything but methodic!

[trajan]

On 21/05/2014 at 04:27, seaforths said:

No, not at all grandmothers/eggs etc. Interesting points indeed and perhaps it is quite possible it is the border that Grumpy is identifying with too. I am of the intention, in a moment, to make a table of all the points Grumpy has requested and put them in that table, I will include the press sightings of articles relating to Major Yate and their dates of publication. Some of these articles do allude to a photograph preceding them, some don't but I will ensure I make a distinction between them when I enter them.

I have to go check files dates etc. I know many off pat but would need to look at others and it would ensure accuracy if I worked through methodically - although his file was anything but methodic!

I did try to make something out of the ends of the words in that one photograph sometime back but had no luck. I also wrote to the village web-site that published one version of the image to correct them on one matter in their publicity - they had yate gazetted VC in 1919 - but never heard back. Nor have I heard back from the Yorkshire Post re: their archives. But the comment that it might be a picture magazine is a pointer to where the infamous photograph was published. That won't resolve where it was originally published, though... And clearly when that photograph appeared in an English-language paper so soon after the VC was gazetted (two days! - well spotted MG!), it was not publicly known that he was dead...

Seaforths, good luck with compiling the data base - I guess you have all the details but time and labour, etc... Howsoever this thread turns out, you and Seaforth78 are owed an enormous debt of gratitude already for your sterling work on illuminating what for many must have seemed an entirely cut-and-dried matter.

Regards,

Trajan

[Guest]

One other thing to consider - if the publication was a periodical rather than a daily..... 25th Nov 1914 was a Wednesday...26th Thu etc... May help narrow down the options.

[seaforths]

On 21/05/2014 at 04:52, TRAJAN said:

I did try to make something out of the ends of the words in that one photograph sometime back but had no luck. I also wrote to the village web-site that published one version of the image to correct them on one matter in their publicity - they had yate gazetted VC in 1919 - but never heard back. Nor have I heard back from the Yorkshire Post re: their archives. But the comment that it might be a picture magazine is a pointer to where the infamous photograph was published. That won't resolve where it was originally published, though... And clearly when that photograph appeared in an English-language paper so soon after the VC was gazetted (two days! - well spotted MG!), it was not publicly known that he was dead...

Seaforths, good luck with compiling the data base - I guess you have all the details but time and labour, etc... Howsoever this thread turns out, you and Seaforth78 are owed an enormous debt of gratitude already for your sterling work on illuminating what for many must have seemed an entirely cut-and-dried matter.

Regards,

Trajan

Yes, Gazette 24 November 1914 but Madeley, Shropshire CC have run an article on him with VC awarded in August 1919. I wondered if there was a Gazette date and a date it was actually conferred. In his case posthumously.

[seaforths]

Oh! I can do complicated! It is 'simple' that is complicated for me.

Time to eat, I think, brain is running down.

Actually Grumpy his death is complicated. On paper and in his records, he died twice! However I am putting it all into a table. Now then, death cert. I will use the German if you don't mind, The British making a decision on the death cert. and pension rights, as discussed another time played a considerable amount of desk hockey over a long period before they decided how they would word the certificate.

[seaforths]

The newspaper article that mentioned the photo of him in an earlier article was dated Nov 28th. Given the caption paraphrased the VC citation (dated 25th Nov) this would in theory narrow the publication date of the photo to between 25th and 27th Nov 1914. The haystack is a lot smaller.

I would also add that one of the images shows a very distinctive border to the photo here This border might help narrow down the publication.

Apologies if this has already been stated. MG

Martin there appear to be two haystacks running here.

There is the foreign press haystack and ascertaining when/ where the first appearance of the photograph and associated text appeared in a British publication.

The former might enable us to deduce the location of the photograph and the latter might ascertain how the English caption is at odds with the photograph.

I am still compiling my table and should be able to post it this evening...

Edit: I still maintain IMHO that the photograph did not appear in the British press during the war. I am still of the opinion they would not want to portray to the British public, an image of a British officer, a decorated one at that, being subdued by his captors.

[Phil Evans]

I don't know Marjorie (whether English press, or wider context).

The Sheffield Evening Telegraph, 28th November 1914, ends an article with:

"To say the least, the circumstances surrounding the fate of Major Yate are mysterious and no less in view of the fact that recently there have appeared in the Press photographs of him as a German prisoner, apparently not wounded."

I tend to agree with Martin that the copy of the photo he linked to does appear to be from a high quality publication.

Phil

[shippingsteel]

Captured: 26 August 1914 Le Cateau.

Arrived Torgau via numerous other headquarters, including Magdeburg: 5 or 8 September 1914. (Depending on whose account you read).

Interviewed by the men from Berlin: 16 September.

Aborted escape attempt from Torgau: 18 September 1914.

Successful escape from Torgau: 19 September 1914.

Died: 20 September 1914.

Buried 24 September 1914. No British officer saw his body.

Gazetted VC: 24 November 1914.

Excellent idea of Grumpy's to establish a FACTUAL timeline. It certainly does help to outline and clarify the pertinent points.

So just analysing that data we can say that he spent roughly 50% of his this time IN TRANSIT on his journey from the battlefield to Torgau.

And the remainder of his time in incarceration was spent IN THE PRISON camp at Torgau. So again roughly 50% of his time spent in Torgau.

So simply on a MATHEMATICAL basis, given that we know very little else about the photo location, there is a 50% chance it is taken in Torgau.

So again someone please tell me exactly how Torgau IS ruled out here as a possibility.? Apparently we don't know for sure when Yate arrived.??

And does anyone know for certain where the 'boys from Berlin' conducted their 'interview' with Yate on the 16th September. Any accounts of that.?

I am sure somebody will be kind enough to enlighten me. Thanks for that. And sorry for going back to Torgau but IMHO it is impossible to rule out.

Cheers, S>S

[seaforths]

I don't know Marjorie (whether English press, or wider context).

The Sheffield Evening Telegraph, 28th November 1914, ends an article with:

"To say the least, the circumstances surrounding the fate of Major Yate are mysterious and no less in view of the fact that recently there have appeared in the Press photographs of him as a German prisoner, apparently not wounded."

I tend to agree with Martin that the copy of the photo he linked to does appear to be from a high quality publication.

!B1VQPyw!Wk~$(KGrHqYOKkIE)NVNvYOrBMeDq1vS+!~~_35.JPG

Phil

Phil,

I've just gone through his file with a fine tooth comb. It seems the WO and FO were equally exasperated by the comments and articles in foreign press originating from Germany regarding Yate. They had still received no official confirmation. They received a notification from Swiss Red Cross on 19th October. They in turn had been told by un-named source at Muhlburg (the town near where he died) that he had died by taking his own life on 24 September. This was at odds with what the Germans were releasing in their press which was reaching the press of other countries (that he escaped on 19-20 and died on 20 - suicide.)

In the end on 12 December FO approached the American ambassador who made a verbal enquiry with Berlin. On 20 December Berlin responded to the American ambassador and confirmed his death and gave an accompanying report from the Kommandant at Torgau and a German death cert. was also released (which was dated 23 September recording his death on 20 September).

It is possible that the WO were not prepared to officially recognise any of the press releases until they had been told officially themselves through the proper channels.

Also a letter on file from Col. Yate MP. July 1915 voicing his consternation and frustration that while it was acknowledged he was dead there was a lack of information forthcoming to him and his family regarding the circumstances of his death from any official sources and that he had seen the press articles and photograph in German newspapers. He also seemed puzzled by the conflicts of information regarding the press and VC citation.

[seaforths]

Here I hope, is the information you asked for Grumpy:

UPDATED TIME LINE DOCUMENT NOW ON PAGE 16 POST #389 OF THIS THREAD

Cheers

seaforths

[seaforths]

Excellent idea of Grumpy's to establish a FACTUAL timeline. It certainly does help to outline and clarify the pertinent points.

So just analysing that data we can say that he spent roughly 50% of his this time IN TRANSIT on his journey from the battlefield to Torgau.

And the remainder of his time in incarceration was spent IN THE PRISON camp at Torgau. So again roughly 50% of his time spent in Torgau.

So simply on a MATHEMATICAL basis, given that we know very little else about the photo location, there is a 50% chance it is taken in Torgau.

So again someone please tell me exactly how Torgau IS ruled out here as a possibility.? Apparently we don't know for sure when Yate arrived.??

And does anyone know for certain where the 'boys from Berlin' conducted their 'interview' with Yate on the 16th September. Any accounts of that.?

I am sure somebody will be kind enough to enlighten me. Thanks for that. And sorry for going back to Torgau but IMHO it is impossible to rule out.

Cheers, S>S

I hope that the timeline document I have just uploaded will answer your questions.

There is a discrepancy over the arrival date because Breen states 8 September in his statement and report of April 1919. I believe Breen arrived after Yate but obviously before Yate escaped - as he assisted him over the wall. This would account for the discrepancy in his report and I do wonder that he put the date of his own arrival by mistake. However O'Rorke kept a daily diary throughout the war which he continued during his confinement. He was repatriated in the spring of 1915 and his diary was confiscated by the Germans, shortly afterwards they returned it to him by post having checked it and satisfied themselves regarding the content. Of all three accounts I believe his and Bond's account to be the strongest in accuracy regarding the date of his arrival. They were recording the events as they happened whereas Breen was using recall 5 years after the event.

In short, no. You cannot apply the logic of math to the inexact intricacies of POW movements.

[seaforths]

Excellent idea of Grumpy's to establish a FACTUAL timeline. It certainly does help to outline and clarify the pertinent points.

So just analysing that data we can say that he spent roughly 50% of his this time IN TRANSIT on his journey from the battlefield to Torgau.

And the remainder of his time in incarceration was spent IN THE PRISON camp at Torgau. So again roughly 50% of his time spent in Torgau.

So simply on a MATHEMATICAL basis, given that we know very little else about the photo location, there is a 50% chance it is taken in Torgau.

So again someone please tell me exactly how Torgau IS ruled out here as a possibility.? Apparently we don't know for sure when Yate arrived.??

And does anyone know for certain where the 'boys from Berlin' conducted their 'interview' with Yate on the 16th September. Any accounts of that.?

I am sure somebody will be kind enough to enlighten me. Thanks for that. And sorry for going back to Torgau but IMHO it is impossible to rule out.

Cheers, S>S

They turned up unannounced from Berlin and interviewed him in the Kommandant's office at Bruckenkopf. Their intention was to return on Monday to see him again. This is why the escape that was originally being hatched between Breen and Yate was brought forward. Yate wanted out of there before they came back. Unfortunately, there were not enough civilian clothes for both of them so Yate went solo. I have posted this before...

[seaforths]

Thank you .........

to which we need to add eventually:

death notified to widow

date first "photo" with or without "caption" appeared

date when photo referred to

I shall continue to sniff around.

Sorry Grumpy I posted the timeline document but death notified to widow is a bit difficult to pinpoint. She was in Switzerland, reading the German newspaper accounts of her husband's death. She was getting information quicker than the WO. His MP cousin wrote a letter to them in July 1915 venting his frustrations about the lack of information and inconsistencies of information coming from the WO when they had seen it all in the German press.

[seaforth78]

SS never took up my offer to have all 300 pages plus of the NA Yate files sent on him so he wonders why he's still in the dark about Yate's subsequent movements after his capture. It's all there 'mate' and I repeat that either Seaforths or I could kindly send it on you if you wish to enlighten your 'theories' which mathematically do not add up.

[seaforths]

I don't know Marjorie (whether English press, or wider context).

The Sheffield Evening Telegraph, 28th November 1914, ends an article with:

"To say the least, the circumstances surrounding the fate of Major Yate are mysterious and no less in view of the fact that recently there have appeared in the Press photographs of him as a German prisoner, apparently not wounded."

I tend to agree with Martin that the copy of the photo he linked to does appear to be from a high quality publication.

!B1VQPyw!Wk~$(KGrHqYOKkIE)NVNvYOrBMeDq1vS+!~~_35.JPG

Phil

Sorry Phil,

since I posted my last, it occurs to me that there might have been a reluctance in the British press to repeat stories originating from Germany. It seems from the snippet you posted that the British press were well aware of the German press stories but it could have been viewed as either un-patriotic or promoting German propaganda by repeating such stories themselves until they had official confirmation from the WO or FO and as you can see, they really dragged their heels in asking for official information to be sent to them.

But without a doubt judging by your snippet, the British press were very aware of the mysteries surrounding him. I also agree the examples of that photograph shown with British caption is very good quality given the era...

I will add your snippet to the timeline but will amend it tomorrow. I noticed after posting I had omitted a couple of Bond sources in error so I need to amend it anyway.

Very odd though, the amount of articles that state there was a photograph in German press is growing and yet we still can't locate it. I will try and find another German press archive tomorrow if I get the chance. Cheers

[seaforth78]

Trajan,

Thank you Sir, I much appreciate that and feel, having not given up on Yate' s saga in the other thread I started a year ago, has really I think, helped all on the forum to undertstanding his situation a lot better. I for one, have learned a great deal. But the lion's share of the credit goes to Seaforths for her dilligence and British bulldog tenacity.

[trajan]

So again someone please tell me exactly how Torgau IS ruled out here as a possibility.? ... I am sure somebody will be kind enough to enlighten me. Thanks for that. And sorry for going back to Torgau but IMHO it is impossible to rule out.

SS, of course nobody will be able to convince anyone that the photograph was not taken at Torgau until some clear documentary evidence emerges. However, remember that quote from Newton, and good old Ockham's razor - or, if you like, Sherlock Holmes on when all other possibilities are eliminated, etc., etc.. Quite simply, the balance of the evidence is against Torgau, and so the onus, it would seem, is on you to prove it was Torgau.

Let's just restate one simple set of evidence for the photograph not having been taken at Torgau. As you pointed out long long long ago (I think first page?), the soldiers have Bavarian weaponry, and as I pointed out long long ago (I think first and second page?), those guards are wearing hellblau Bavarian style uniforms (and the cockades represent a limited group of possibilities than include Bavaria), and as they have out-dated pouches and rifles and bayonets for 1914, then they are 2nd or even 3rd line soldiers.

Now, if you would come up with a convincing explanation as to why 2nd or 3rd line Bavarian soldiers would be at Torgau in Saxony, at the regular (i.e., recruiting) home base of the IR 72, a Saxon unit, which in 1914 supplied two battalions of an Ersatz unit for west front service in addition to sending its regular unit, then hey - yes it would be impossible to rule out Torgau as a possible location for the photograph. But after you dropped the idea that the photograph was evidence of a Bavarian unit at Le Cateau, you began hinting (a while back) that you had a possible ID for where a Bavarian unit might have had charge of Yate. Obviously that did not work out, and so you dropped that to try and locate the photograph him at Torgau.

Either we have Yate under the guard of a group of 2nd or 3rd line Bavraian soldiers somewhere on the West Front - which is basically what you wanted at the start of this thread - or we now have Bavarian soldiers travelling half way across the Reich and insisting on a family snapshot at Torgau as a memento of their holiday trip between approx 26th August and 5th or 8th of September...

We have a phrase in the UK: stop shifting the goalposts! Please be clear on - ie. state explicitly - what you are trying to argue here. You really cannot have your cake and eat it!

Regards,

Trajan

EDIT: Ooops! Just seen the time and have to get ready for work - so apologies now for what else has been posted since that post of SS that this replies to, and I'll pick up on the thread again later

[shippingsteel]

No Trajan you misunderstand. The whole point of the thread in the beginning was :-

1) The German soldiers in the photo are wearing Bavarian uniforms (obsolete Hellblau coloured uniforms) not frontline issue.

2) The Bavarian army was grouped together at the start of the war, principally in the 6th Army in the Alsace/Lorraine sector.

3) You also find an odd unit in the 5th and 7th Army, but none in the 1st Army. I put no Bavarians within 250km of Le Cateau.

4) Therefore the photo simply cannot be taken anytime soon after the battle at Le Cateau. Hence the photo was organised later.

5) Going on the obsolete type and colour of the Hellblau uniform, it's most unlikely to be seen worn anywhere outside Germany.

So taking into account all of the above, my conclusion was that these troops are the prison guards from one of the POW camps in Germany.

Regarding Torgau, I acknowledge the Saxony point which may be partly explained by the fact that the Germans were not prepared for so many POW's.

The Reserves that were usually in these base depots would have been called up to the front, when things began to go badly, with alarming casualties.

I don't think it is any coincidence that Bavarian units were being mobilised as these early battles were being fought, and being tasked to guard prisoners.

The one unit that I researched was reported to have 5 Bataillons (20 Kompanies) guarding prisoners. Apparently allocating around 1 Zug to each prison.

I did read that just 2 of these Kompanies were put in charge of 6 POW camps. So going on that rate this Bayerische LIR could handle 60 prison camps.!

Cheers, S>S

[seaforths]

No Trajan you misunderstand. The whole point of the thread in the beginning was :-

1) The German soldiers in the photo are wearing Bavarian uniforms (obsolete Hellblau coloured uniforms) not frontline issue.

2) The Bavarian army was grouped together at the start of the war, principally in the 6th Army in the Alsace/Lorraine sector.

3) You also find an odd unit in the 5th and 7th Army, but none in the 1st Army. I put no Bavarians within 250km of Le Cateau.

4) Therefore the photo simply cannot be taken anytime soon after the battle at Le Cateau. Hence the photo was organised later.

5) Going on the obsolete type and colour of the Hellblau uniform, it's most unlikely to be seen worn anywhere outside Germany.

So taking into account all of the above, my conclusion was that these troops are the prison guards from one of the POW camps in Germany.

Regarding Torgau, I acknowledge the Saxony point which may be partly explained by the fact that the Germans were not prepared for so many POW's.

The Reserves that were usually in these base depots would have been called up to the front, when things began to go badly, with alarming casualties.

I don't think it is any coincidence that Bavarian units were being mobilised as these early battles were being fought, and being tasked to guard prisoners.

The one unit that I researched was reported to have 5 Bataillons (20 Kompanies) guarding prisoners. Apparently allocating around 1 Zug to each prison.

I did read that just 2 of these Kompanies were put in charge of 6 POW camps. So going on that rate this Bayerische LIR could handle 60 prison camps.!

Cheers, S>S

I do hope you are going to give your sources for that last paragraph SS!

As you have peppered me with so many questions in your recent posts. Perhaps you will ask a question of mine. Why is it so important for you, to have the location at Torgau?

An expert on the German army of occupation might be able to concur or refute. My theory is based purely on common sense. The German army are moving forward. The unit that actually captured him are to pursue the retreating British the next morning if my reading memory serves me right (from the accounts). Taking that common sense approach, the advancing Army must have had some very strong logistics with them to move at the rate they were going. In addition they must have been bringing with them, units that could occupy all of these towns and villages along the way. Taking that theory further, they would not have been front line troops that came in with them to occupy the towns and villages because they were moving forward. So your theory regarding POW camps could equally be applied to other areas.

You are right on your theory of the use of reservist units at POW camps. I believe I highlighted that very much earlier in the thread.

By the way, the Kommandant of Bruckenkopf - Prussian reservist - the Padre told me. Not sure how that hangs now. Would they have had a Prussian reservist officer commanding a Bavarian reservist guard? Or, would they have a Prussian reservist officer with Prussian reservist unit?

Edit: Extra information. Sorry I should also have said that the Padre also states they were getting a bad time of it on the train to Torgau from drunken Uhlans. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Uhlans Prussian?

[seaforth78]

No Trajan you misunderstand. The whole point of the thread in the beginning was :-

1) The German soldiers in the photo are wearing Bavarian uniforms (obsolete Hellblau coloured uniforms) not frontline issue.

2) The Bavarian army was grouped together at the start of the war, principally in the 6th Army in the Alsace/Lorraine sector.

3) You also find an odd unit in the 5th and 7th Army, but none in the 1st Army. I put no Bavarians within 250km of Le Cateau.

4) Therefore the photo simply cannot be taken anytime soon after the battle at Le Cateau. Hence the photo was organised later.

5) Going on the obsolete type and colour of the Hellblau uniform, it's most unlikely to be seen worn anywhere outside Germany.

Cheers, S>S

Now after 15 some pages we have now all misunderstood the reason for this thread, but yet SS your thread is entited The capture of Major Yate. Surely anyone starting to embark on this thread would be forgiven thinking it was about the Major and not about some query regarding if the tourists posing with Major Yate in the photo are Bavarian or Saxon!