Capture of Major Yate

[trajan]

Trajan and Seaforths

Could you please PM me Yate's essay? I thought I had it on hand but I'm afraid I don't. If Trajan doesn't then perhaps Seaforths might have a copy?

Travelling and things yesterday, I'll have a look around when I get back home but I'd guess that Seaforths would have beaten me to it by then...

[trajan]

While I have been absent due to domestic issues. However, I have managed to snatch some time for research just too busy with other things to find the time to post it.

Here the image of Bruckenkopf again, rendered in black and white this time:

Another image here a little later WW2 and it was again being used to contain POWs.

Notice the light building on the left? It protrudes into the fort itself with its little window up there and then you have the courtyard on the other side of the wall the tall construction with the flagpole, it’s over a cobbled archway (I too have a detailed plan). With the right angle and lighting... mystery solved methinks! Bruckenkopf it is!

Hope dom. matters cleared away? And a nice bit of searching there! But we are still stuck with those guard uniforms... I'll raise you a railway station against any barracks... But in the meantime, Yep, odds on for Bruckenkopf...

Trajan

[trajan]

... It seems that these postcards were all part of a series that were taken by the Red Cross covering the POW's in the camps. From the website linked HERE

"There were 78 cards in this official Red Cross series, and PoWs from several different countries were represented. The scenes included general views of the camps. Photographs of prisoners at work, recreation, roll-calls, hospitals and even camp cemeteries."

...Found these postcards of the Bruckenkopf prison on this site HERE and it has an interesting story to go with it, about how photographers would produce the cards.

Great links! Thanks!

Trajan

[seaforths]

Actually, I have issues myself with the photographs I posted earlier but I posted them to show how difficult it would be (visually) to prove one location against the other. Grumpy's remark in this post was not lost on me. Since he wrote that, I have been investigating further...because in order to get anywhere near an acceptance of either your posted images or mine above. We need to look over the walls to Grumpy's 'interior' of the fort/kaserne...
 

On 15/05/2014 at 18:35, GRUMPY said:

The Fort Zinna attribution of the photo is very optimistic. In my fairly broad experience [13 years in Germany] one German fort/ kaserne interior looks much like another!

No jury would convict on the evidence so far!

 

History of Torgau QUOTE GRUMPY #210:
While my lack of German might hamper exactly the history of the area with its two forts, I can at least make some judgements based on my limited knowledge and guesswork that might turn out to be correct. Anyone who does have the ability to understand might be able to satiate their curiosity here and confirm or refute:
As this is probably more Trajan’s area than mine I would hope he will see this and once he has stopped laughing (or at least controlled it a little) at my amateurish attempt to explain what follows, might be able to comment one way or the other, as might anyone else with better knowledge than me of German history.
In April, 1811, the King of Saxony, Frederick August, the ally of Napoleon, destroyed the fortifications of the town in order to rebuild them. Both Fort Zinna and Bruckenkopf not so geographically far apart would, I expect, share the same geological properties of ground. Also given the time they were rebuilt, the same materials would be used in construction during various eras, as happens with other historical locations around the world. Bits are added here and there to the fortifications etc. that reflect a particular era. Fort Zinna and Bruckenkopf are no exception.
These images are circa 2010 the only thing I have done is to render them black and white as it seems to be, for the best part, black and white images that we are dealing with regarding the war period.
Grumpy’s post #210 – thirteen years of experience deserves some respect and from my point of view also based on what I can see, Grumpy is quite right and I would suggest there are too many similarities here between them anyway to ascertain whether a photograph could be taken at one location or the other. We have to look at something else... Yate was never at Fort Zinna however as that theory is being put forward so forecefully

 

[seaforth78]

That's it! Good for you Seaforths and my heartiest congrats on your sound research and dedication. That'll do it for me.

[seaforths]

Hope dom. matters cleared away? And a nice bit of searching there! But we are still stuck with those guard uniforms... I'll raise you a railway station against any barracks... But in the meantime, Yep, odds on for Bruckenkopf...

Trajan

Yes Trajan - took most of the day to sort out but my reward was a trip yesterday to visit a fascinating presentation a chap had put together on a WW1 POW. I had provided him with some items but my input was modest compared to the effort he had gone to...well worth it. I was up till late o'clock last night downloading and uploading images. I would appreciate any feedback good or bad on my German history and from Grumpy or anyone else for that matter. I am raising the bar on this now and you might just about break even with the railway station!

[seaforths]

Some while back in this thread #96 to be precise, I commented on cobbles at Magdeburg because I felt that the cobbles played an important part in the photograph, just as important as the archway and the window. Another post of a cobbled farmhouse also earlier was mentioned. Grumpy at #236 made a very astute observation and comment on your Fort Zinna image and posted as such. While my response was glib, its importance was not lost on me. Let’s take a look at your image which as Grumpy noticed was not of such good quality because believe it or not, YES – a lot of information hangs on Grumpy’s cobbles! Bless you Grumpy what a star you are!

Your image and another (also circa 2010 rendered black and white) of Fort Zinna. They are not so much cobbles as very stony ground with various sizes of stones. Look at the those previous images of Fort Zinna and Bruckenkopf – can you see any cobbles that extend out from the archways? No – try as I might I couldn’t find any images that showed that because there aren’t cobbled courtyards at either location. If you agree that the same materials were used in both locations and the construction and architecture were also replicated then you would have to accept that evidence of the presence or lack of cobbles at one location could be equally applied to the other.




 

[seaforths]

In order to eliminate Torgau as a possible photograph location I now have to resort to documentary evidence.

I had thought by posting not once but twice the relationship between the locations of Fort Zinna, Torgau town and Bruckenkopf that you might link that to my previous posts #20 and #28 and therefore common sense would prevail.

SS what on earth would they be processing at Fort Zinna? Passports and visas? Do you honestly think that they would take him up there in the opposite direction to their destination at Bruckenkopf so they could stamp his visa, have a photo shoot with some surly guards of unknown German origin and a couple of Frenchmen. He would have had more processing before getting to Torgau than you can shake a shiny bayonet at. As I pointed out #158 he came via Magdeburg the administrative centre for the camps under them. They would have absolutely no need to take him to Fort Zinna. This information coupled with my comments in #20 and #28 regarding the ill treatment of POWs should have been enough to make the links however, I am prepared to put it beyond all reasonable doubt.

SS, as your area of expertise is bayonets so my area of interest is POWs. My granddad was one and as I have found out recently on the forum, also photographed at capture. I have been researching the capture, processing, transportation and mistreatment of POWs for a few years and have read extensively on the subject. Not just from the time of granddad’s capture but of the whole war. I find that in order to understand the parts you must address and try to understand the whole.

I have done a little back-reading because as others have pointed out, sources are important.

Pearson, George. ‘The Escape of a Princess Pat...’ 1918.
We pulled into Giessen at eleven, the night of May tenth. The citizens made a Roman holiday of the occasion and the entire population turned out to see the Engländer Schwein. There was a guard for every prisoner, and two lines of fixed bayonets. The mob surged around, heaping on us insults and blows; particularly the women. With hate in their eyes, they spat on us. We had to take that or the bayonet. These were the acts not only of the rabble, but also of the people of good appearance and address. One very well-dressed woman rushed up. Under other circumstances I should have judged her to have been a gentlewoman. She shrieked invectives at us as she forced her way through the crowd. "Schwein!" she screamed, and struck at the man next me. He snapped his shoulders back as a soldier does at attention. Then, drawing deep from the very bottom of her lungs, she spat the mass full in his face. The muscles of his face twitched painfully but he held his eyes to the front and stared past his tormentor, seeing other things.

Jones, Heather.’Violence against Prisoners of War in the First World War: Britain, France and Germany, 1914-1920’, 2011.
Violent mob reaction against Allied prisoners became relatively common in Germany by late August 1914...it is important to note that civilian violence towards prisoners in 1914 generally occurred in train stations, at a point when new prisoners were at their most exhausted...

Yarnall, John. ‘Barbed Wire Disease’, 2011.
The British Government Committee on the treatment of prisoners alleged in particular that POWs transported to Germany during the first four months of the war were subjected to ‘incessant moral brutality’, with the prisoners being exposed to jeering, insults, spitting and hostile crowds...

Lewis-Stempel, John, ‘The War Behind the Wire: The Life , Death and Glory of British Prisoners of War, 1914-18’, 2014.
Arriving at Aschaffenburg station, PoWs were greeted by civilians making throat-cutting gestures. The burghers of other towns made more of an effort. One common welcome sign was a mannequin dressed in khaki swinging by its neck from the station roof. On occasion the abuse went beyond words and signs to sticks and stones. At Aix-la-Chapelle injured PoWs, lying on stretchers on the station platform, were stoned by civilians...no one stopped them...Prisoners on the trains came to dread the sounds of squealing brakes as the locomotive slowed down for the stations. Every stop brought the potential for fresh torment, primarily because they were thronged with German civilians...Cologn. There was something about Koln. At Cologne Austen and his small group of British doctors had to be protected by a squadron of mounted police, who used the flat of their swords to keep baying crowds back...the crowd amused themselves by throwing buckets of water over us...even urine...Men from Scottish regiments were officially paraded on station platforms and, at bayonet point, made to lift their kilts to music-hall laughter.

On Friday, I discovered that the Padre (from a few posts back) at Bruckenkopf had written a book about his experiences as a POW. B.G. O’Rorke, ‘In the Hands of the Enemy’, 1915. I managed to order a copy. The book arrived yesterday and last night I was able to read it. Here is what he had to say about his arrival and that of Major Yate:

At length, on Friday morning, the journey came to an end on our arrival at Torgau. We were ordered out of the train and drawn up on the platform in fours. Each officer carried what articles of clothing he possessed. Several of them had preserved their medical panniers, and heavy as these were, they had to be carried or left behind. On either side of us a German guard with fixed bayonets was drawn up, and then was given the word, “Quick march!” With our bundle on our shoulder, there was no man bolder, yet this same bundle and the burning sun prevented there being anything “quick” about our march. The townsfolk evidently had heard that we were coming, and they were at the station gate in scores to show us how pleased they were to welcome us to their town, In fact, they told us quite freely what they thought of us and the nation which we represented. They walked beside us every inch of the way, keeping up our spirits by telling us the particular kind of Schweindhunds they believed the Englander to be. Not until they had crossed the massive bridge which spans the Elbe and reached the Bruckenkopf fortress did they turn back home, and the doors of the fortress closed behind us...we found that a number of British and French officers had preceded us. There seemed to be about a hundred in all of whom less than half were British...they stood stock-still with astonishment when our disreputable party entered and formed up in the centre of the court...A diversion occurred at about 10P.M. when four new-comers arrived in the room. These were Major A. Yate, K.O.Y.L.I., Captain W. Roche and Lieut. J.L. Hardy, Connaught Rangers, and Lieut. E.B. Budden of the Middlesex Regiment (T.F.) They had had hairbreadth escapes, of which we heard only the faintest outline that night...

As ever, open to comments that might substantiate or refute my posts...I rest my case - for now.

Edit: typo

[trajan]

...As this is probably more Trajan’s area than mine I would hope he will see this and once he has stopped laughing (or at least controlled it a little) at my amateurish attempt to explain what follows, might be able to comment one way or the other, as might anyone else with better knowledge than me of German history.

In April, 1811, the King of Saxony, Frederick August, the ally of Napoleon, destroyed the fortifications of the town in order to rebuild them. Both Fort Zinna and Bruckenkopf not so geographically far apart would, I expect, share the same geological properties of ground. Also given the time they were rebuilt, the same materials would be used in construction during various eras, as happens with other historical locations around the world. Bits are added here and there to the fortifications etc. that reflect a particular era. Fort Zinna and Bruckenkopf are no exception....

This is all looking very interesting, my only observation so far being that old Frederick was fobbed off with what was already being sold by the French to the Ottoman Empire (compare the plans for Akkerman, modern Ukraine, a project I am involved in). I guess there is more to come? I am just back from an all-day event...

[trajan]

In order to eliminate Torgau as a possible photograph location I now have to resort to documentary evidence....

... As ever, open to comments that might substantiate or refute my posts...I rest my case - for now...

Heck, that is a brilliant piece of analysis there Seaforths! I am with Seaforths 78 here - excellent bring together of disparate evidence! I had gathered from previous posts and threads about your grandfather being a POW, and your interest in matters POW, but your command and marshalling of the relevant sources here is certainly enough to make one stop and think - and well done on that discovery and acquiring the O'Rourke text, which fits perrfectly! I think you (and Grumpy) are on the ball with the cobbles indicating the infamous photograph was not taken in Bruckenkopf and clearly Zinna is out of the question, and I look forward to your next step in the analysis!

Trajan

[Muerrisch]

I will go back to page 1. tomorrow and read slowly through before coming up for air, with, hopefully, a tentative conclusion.

[shippingsteel]

WOW.! Did I step on a landmine somewhere along the way.? I probably haven't picked up on all the points from above just yet ... however there WERE cobbles at Fort Zinna.

The photo that I showed in post #189 was certainly taken inside the Fort Zinna complex ... and while the cobbles show a different pattern than those in the photo they do exist.

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

And here is the final offering from me on the Fort Zinna theory. The main criteria is a background match of the windows of the tall building in the depth of frame.

Now this is a very small image, but its the best I can do. It is actually found on the same website that Seaforths sourced those myriad of photos - on home page.

This line drawing of the gatehouse and Rotunda building was done about 1905, and shows the close positioning of the building in relation to the main gatehouse.

The main point from this drawing is the pattern of the windows on the end of the Rotunda building. It has light walls, the windows match and its in the right position.

Cheers, S>S

[seaforths]

I'm sorry SS - I've seen these images too. Are they not WW2???

Which bit are you not reading? Do you honestly believe that they would have taken him through a rioting crowd baying for blood in the opposite direction. Have you actually read anything I've posted at all?? He didn't to go Fort Zinna. He arrived at night!

I will now return to Breen’s statement also posted by me previously on his take regarding the arrival of Major Yate:

‘Major Yate arrived in Torgau on the 8th September from Magdeburg, accompanied by Captain Roche and Lieut Hardy, Connaught Rangers. They had been subjected to very rough treatment by the German Military and Civil population especially on their way through the town of Torgau on the night of their arrival...’

Now we have two sources of evidence that Yate et. al. Arrived at night (according to the Padre and Breen) that surely must put photographs in the Torgau area out of the equation. I had also posted earlier on the thread about the existence of a book by Bond. The reason I felt it to be important must have been quite obvious to anyone reading those posts. Bond’s book is used frequently in modern writing on POWs. Indeed many of my previous extracts from books also quote Bond. Unfortunately, I know the quotes rather well and not all of them are relevant to this thread and they tend to trundle out the same old quotes. Except the information regarding the cobbles at Magdeburg which I posted a long while back – and while I didn’t quote directly nor post a source the information from my head had its roots in Bond’s book.

As the book was physically out of my reach at over 100 miles away for the nearest copy a kindly member has actually copied and sent me the first 100+ pages! I have spent a considerable amount of time researching last night but today, having cropped the images sent to me and combined them into a PDF document, I have finally been able to sit down and read Bond’s account...

[seaforths]

This information is from Bond’s book ‘Prisoners Grave and Gay’ obtained from New York Public Library. I don’t take any credit for getting it at all. That goes to S78, who, despite being unwell dragged himself into the library yesterday and photographed each page and sent them to me. The time lag meant it was too late to do anything with them or look at them until later today. Thank you S78! Hope you are feeling better! So then the account of Bond on the arrival at Torgau. I have to say, that having done my stuff previously, much of it comes as no surprise but other things are a revelation!

‘...their arrival next evening at Torgau in Saxony. The Schweinehunds had begun to think they were accustomed to dog-shows now, but all previous shows were eclipsed by the éclat of their arrival at the end of their journey. It was late evening. The station platform was brilliantly lit; a strong wooden rail had been erected down the centre of the platform; a guard of armed and helmeted German soldiers was drawn up facing the train; behind the wooden handrail was an excited crown of mafficking citizens. As the prisoners stepped down to the platform, derisive cheers were raised, songs were sung and there came volleys of greetings in German and some in English. It was like leaving an English football ground after a big match down a lane formed to the dressing-pavilion, except for the nature of the greetings! They consisted chiefly of assurances of undying hatred and threats: “You come from London, you pig-dogs, you shall never see London again,” and so on. The escort were well drilled and had their orders: the prisoners were formed in a column of threes, with parties of soldiers at the head and tail, and a man of escort on either flank of each section of three. The reason for this was seen when the column emerged from the station. The city was en fete, decorated with lamps and flags everywhere. On stages in front of the houses or at the porches were parties of people seated as for a play. The wide open square into which the column moved was packed with sightseers, as were the streets through which the procession passed. Two brass bands picked up the column in the square and played, one at the head, the other at the tail, sometimes simultaneously. It was a tumultuous scene. No progress could be made for minutes at a time; the whole mass of people seemed to be trying to get at the prisoners. The escort stuck to their duty: they fought to keep back the crowd; a series of ugly rushes was made; here and there the guards were pressed back almost onto the prisoners, and the enemy then got in some well-directed shots. Lucky was the prisoner who had an inside place in the column, for the outsiders bore the brunt of the attack and soon began to bear evidence of the nature of the ammunition. The crowd consisted chiefly of the very old and the very young. At one period there was one old woman who distinguished herself by the violence of her denunciations and the directness of her aim; she managed to hit one of the best looking of the young officers three times in quick succession with three well-delivered spits! Old German women can spit! The procession had possibly three quarters of a mile to go before reaching the gates of the fort where they were to be incarcerated, but the journey seemed endless and the din unimaginably hideous. When those big gates finally closed behind them great was the sense of relief. The crowd still continued for a time to bang on the great gates and to sing their hymns of hate... At Torgau the prisoners were interned in the Bruckenkopf, the bridge-head fort which guarded the bridge over the Elbe...’
Then he mentions Yate ‘...We had last seen Yate standing on the road at Le Cateau...He had had a thrilling journey across Germany. Carried off from the battlefield in a private car, he had been passed from one headquarters to another. Twice he had made determined efforts to escape, and had been brought back. Finally, labelled dangerous and closely guarded, he was brought in to Torgau...
So, now we have helmeted guards en-route to Bruckenkopf through the town of Torgau. Now I am absolutely certain there were no photographs taken anywhere in the Torgau area. Furthermore, Major Yate was not with them, as we now see he was ‘Carried off from the battlefield in a private car’.

SS - I recall you stated they were kept at Le Cateau for five days according to Martin. I then said that some of them might have been there five days but possibly were processed at different times. All due respect to Martin but you see some prisoners were of more interest to the Germans than others and just because they were captured together did not necessarily mean they travelled from A to E via B, C and D conveniently together. I’m sure Martin might agree and possibly have expanded on that part of his quotation from his Bond accounts, had he known it might come under discussion.
An extreme example of this would be the English subaltern on the train who attracted the attention of the German officer with his fluent German. The German officer asked him for his name and unit. The subaltern responded ‘Young, Duke of Yorks’. Despite all protestations, the young ‘scuse the pun subaltern was removed from the train at the next station and whisked away in a staff car. The German officer was convinced he had the Young Duke of York as a prisoner.

Back to Bond ‘passed from one headquarters to another’ that will be his processing that you thought SS, would be occurring at Fort Zinna - get this - THERE WAS NO PASSPORT CONTROL OR PHOTO SHOOT AT FORT ZINNA!

[seaforths]

And when you finished reading my last two posts - properly. Then explain to my why they would have made an exception by taking Major Yate and his companions to Fort Zinna, at night, through a riot, when the others were taken directly through the town from the train station.

Fort Zinna, I had researched extensively before dismissing it. The images from WW2 of the Bruckenkopf courtyard are also quite different. I am not even sure your image is WW2. The place, from my research was used as a prison for civilians after WW1 and then into WW2 for POWs and continued to operate again as a civilian prison during the Cold War. Yes it was still being used as a prison then...I've done my homework.

Now,

Give me one shred of credible evidence documentary or otherwise that British Officers were taken to Fort Zinna in 1914.

[seaforth78]

Bravo namesake, outstanding research! And I've got the next Bond batch to send you tomorrow...

[shippingsteel]

B.G. O’Rorke, ‘In the Hands of the Enemy’, 1915.

...A diversion occurred at about 10P.M. when four new-comers arrived in the room. These were Major A. Yate, K.O.Y.L.I., Captain W. Roche and Lieut. J.L. Hardy, Connaught Rangers, and Lieut. E.B. Budden of the Middlesex Regiment (T.F.) They had had hairbreadth escapes, of which we heard only the faintest outline that night...

I will now return to Breen’s statement also posted by me previously on his take regarding the arrival of Major Yate:

‘Major Yate arrived in Torgau on the 8th September from Magdeburg, accompanied by Captain Roche and Lieut Hardy, Connaught Rangers. They had been subjected to very rough treatment by the German Military and Civil population especially on their way through the town of Torgau on the night of their arrival...’

This information is from Bond’s book ‘Prisoners Grave and Gay’ obtained from New York Public Library.

... Then he mentions Yate ‘...We had last seen Yate standing on the road at Le Cateau...He had had a thrilling journey across Germany. Carried off from the battlefield in a private car, he had been passed from one headquarters to another. Twice he had made determined efforts to escape, and had been brought back. Finally, labelled dangerous and closely guarded, he was brought in to Torgau...

Seaforths thank you so much for providing all this new information from the personal accounts. It obviously sheds much more light on how he got to Torgau and the circumstances.

It seems he was given special treatment right from the start, and in his journey back to Germany made several escape attempts, thereby being labelled dangerous and closely guarded.

So he never travelled with the rest of the troops via the train into Torgau, but came separately from them. It then appears that he arrived at Bruckenkopf with other Officers at 10pm.

Mention of being passed from one headquarters to another is interesting. He must have been highly regarded (very worthy of a photo) Is it possible that he arrived in Torgau prior.?

And a photo taken out front of a Torgau prison camp, of their newly arrived ("labelled dangerous and closely guarded") special prisoner, surely cannot be entirely discounted.?

It's just a thought, like my initial suggestion it perhaps was taken upon arrival. Looking at it again, it may well have been taken when he arrived separately from those who wrote these accounts.?

We still do not know for certain the date the photo was taken, or the circumstances about how and why it was taken. And I never said that it HAD to be when "processing his visa upon arrival".!

Cheers, S>S

[seaforths]

Now read post 276 again. He didn't come alone:

' They had been subjected to very rough treatment'

'They' means more than one, does it not?

Where are the helmets of the guards in the photo?

He might have been given a private car to remove him from the battlefield, that's because he was totally out of control... I will post more. I doubt that their courtesy extended to a private train too. It's not like he was The Young Duke of York

I think you've stretched the point of Fort Zinna out for long enough, longer than it should have gone on, if I'm totally honest. Time to turn your energies to something believable and realistic. I know I will be.

[PFF]

Here is a report on Yate dated November 1914 which mentions a photograph of him being recently published

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83045389/1914-11-29/ed-1/seq-3/#date1=1914&index=0&rows=20&searchType=advanced&language=&sequence=0&words=Major+Yate&proxdistance=5&date2=1914&ortext=&proxtext=MAjor+Yate&phrasetext=&andtext=&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1

http://books.google.com/books?id=UvflAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA457&dq=Major+Yate+VC&hl=en&sa=X&ei=uEh5U_KlFIihqAacpYHICQ&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Major%20Yate%20VC&f=false

[trajan]

The photo that I showed in post #189 was certainly taken inside the Fort Zinna complex ... and while the cobbles show a different pattern than those in the photo they do exist.

Hate putting a damper on things, but that is a modern looking chain-wire fence so this is a post ww1 and probably post ww2 photograph by my way of thinking. Yes, cobbled yard, but don't forget the fort remained in military use up to the DDR times...

[trajan]

I'm sorry SS - I've seen these images too. Are they not WW2???

Fort Zinna, I had researched extensively before dismissing it. The images from WW2 of the Bruckenkopf courtyard are also quite different. I am not even sure your image is WW2. The place, from my research was used as a prison for civilians after WW1 and then into WW2 for POWs and continued to operate again as a civilian prison during the Cold War. Yes it was still being used as a prison then...I've done my homework.

Should have read more before my previous last post... I see you got there before me on the date of that photograph of Fort Zinna...

Bravo namesake, outstanding research! And I've got the next Bond batch to send you tomorrow...

Well done the pair of you on getting that book! And now to read the next post!

Trajan

[trajan]

And a photo taken out front of a Torgau prison camp, of their newly arrived ("labelled dangerous and closely guarded") special prisoner, surely cannot be entirely discounted.?

It's just a thought, like my initial suggestion it perhaps was taken upon arrival. Looking at it again, it may well have been taken when he arrived separately from those who wrote these accounts.?

BUT, remember that the guards have Bavarian uniforms and weaponry, which is what you (SS) wanted to draw attention to in the first few posts... I don't think they after Yate was captured and then sent to a holding place clearly manned manned by Bavarians that those whose orders must be obeyed would send a bevy of Bavarian Guards in a car with Yate across Germany to Torgau... Not IMpossible, but... Usual practice I think - and perhaps Seaforths and Seaforth78 can confirm? - was to change the guard contingent when going from one army command to another... So Yate would have arrived at Torgua, which was guarded by Saxon troops, with dunkelblau uniforms, with non-Bavarian troops, also wearing dunkelblau...

Got to dash - will come back to this thread later today when I get a chance.

[seaforths]

Here is a report on Yate dated November 1914 which mentions a photograph of him being recently published

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83045389/1914-11-29/ed-1/seq-3/#date1=1914&index=0&rows=20&searchType=advanced&language=&sequence=0&words=Major+Yate&proxdistance=5&date2=1914&ortext=&proxtext=MAjor+Yate&phrasetext=&andtext=&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1

http://books.google.com/books?id=UvflAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA457&dq=Major+Yate+VC&hl=en&sa=X&ei=uEh5U_KlFIihqAacpYHICQ&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Major%20Yate%20VC&f=false

What a cracking find! Thanks for posting it. My he was as Trajan seems to think, getting international coverage! That article too tantalisingly alludes to a photograph previously published. Just to recap on information so far on press coverage:

Belgium, Norway, Slovenia and now the USA. Mrs Yate was getting information out of Germany somehow and she knew about the photo too.

SS - you were looking for press information in the German newspaper archives for the Torgau area - did you manage to find anything? Please keep looking, you might have to widen your area of search but hopefully come up trumps and maybe richly rewarded n'est pas?

I hope we can leave the debacle that was Fort Zinna behind us now. Thanks for your support TRAJAN. Believe me, I did the place to death myself before I even put a single post down. I'm going to cite a well known pantomime, because that's what it degenerated into; It's a bit like JM Barrie; clap if you believe...no one's clapping SS, so let's move on.

I am going to return to Bond's book today and hopefully, be able to post the information regarding Le Cateau regarding his comments on the guards. While we now know Major Yate was not with them geographically he would have been in the area after his capture. The letter of the French Officer might yield further information. He (from my limited French) seems to have been a camarade of Major Yate and, if I'm not mistaken, his words on Major Yate's capture looks as exciting as Bond's recount.

Edit: typo error

[seaforths]

In addition to my previous. If SS is willing to continue searching the German newspapers, I have since posting, wondered if there is a French newspaper archive. It has occurred to me that after two escape attempts before reaching his destination, the photograph might have been the result of being brought back in again from one of those.

The escapes could have occurred in France, Germany or both (given there were two) just trying to cover both bases. I will try to check later for a French newspaper archive but if anyone has any links, it would be hugely appreciated and save time.