Capture of Major Yate

[shippingsteel]

Yes just from the photos that I have seen of POW's from the early war period, they seemed to have always been loading them onto trains (so very good logistics).

So probably not a lot of marching involved (re shoulderboards rolled back on guards). The report that Martin provided stated they were held at Le Cateau for a week.

Interesting what you say about the POW reports, the unit that I have under investigation was later noted as being 'immobile' (that is a 'resting' unit), guarding prisoners.

Cheers, S>S

[FROGSMILE]

Fantastic effort Martin and very interesting to read. Thank you for sourcing, typing and posting it all.

Have tried to delete this post numerous times from an internet café, but the command just goes on a loop and does nothing. Have found the GWF system/server very slow since the last update and often have to click twice on save changes, frequently the entire post disappears. Never had any problems beforehand.

[FROGSMILE]

I promised in an earlier post to provide Bond's narrative of Le Cateau written sometime between 1914 and 1918. This was part of his correspondence with Atikinson in 1918. It is a verbatim copy of an original typewritten document annotated and signed by Bond. I have little doubt that this docuement was used as the foundationfor Bond's account in the 1929 published history, with some changes. The only changes I have made is to capitalise the unit names and place names and surnames. There is a very good map in the RA account of the action attached at the bottom, which gives a much better idea of what was going on around the KOYLI and the proximity to the Suffolks etc. MG

26th Aug 1914. (Wednesday). At 2:35 am, orders were received detailing arrangements for a renewed retirement. The order to stand to at 3:30 am was repeated. The orders specified the part to be played by the 2nd Bn KING’S OWN YORKSHIRE LIGHT INF in Rear Guard. It was to hold on, in conjunction with the KING’S OWN SCOTTISH BORDERERS on its left, to the position of trenches at present covered by our outpost Company, until 11:00 am, by which time the Divisional train would be clear. “If the situation permits” the Rear Guard was then to retire. From the time of arrival of these last orders, the Battalion had less than one hour to prepare. Supplies had to be distributed from the 1st line wagons which had arrived over night; new maps to be got at and the Battalion then had to go forward in the dark and take up a position not previously reconnoitered. C Coy (Capt LUTHER), was ordered to occupy the high ground overlooking the village of LE CATEAU, South of the BAVAI – REUMONT road. This was too extended a position for one Company to hold. North of the road, D Coy (Maj TREVOR), carried on the line parallel to the LE CATEAU – CAMBRAI road and West of it. North of D Coy, the trenches between that Company and those to be occupied by the KING’S OWN SCOTTISH BORDERERS were allotted to A Coy (Maj HEATHCOTE), whose Company, already on outpost, had to be concentrated.

B Coy, (Maj YATE) were held in reserve and ordered to dig themselves in near the crest of the slope which overlooked the line of trenches. The trenches already dug existed only North of the road. They were disconnected and sited in parallel straight lengths at intervals to oppose the approaches from the East. The great road to CAMBRAI, which ran along their front, was in some cases only about 500 yards distant. It formed a valuable covered approach for the enemy, who concentrated under the cover of its banks without exposing themselves. The road was edged with Poplar trees.

Each of the three Companies in the firing line had to dispose of its half-Companies in local support as best it could, using their field entrenching tools to throw up what cover they could in the time at disposal.

Before 6:00 am however, dispositions were greatly changed. The position thinly occupied by C Coy, obviously high ground of the utmost importance, was handed over for occupation by the 14th INF BDE, with Lt Col STEVENS’ Brigade of RFA and the 52nd Howitzer Bty. C Coy were brought across to the North of the road and assigned a position generally in support of A Coy. One Platoon of C Coy, under Lt WILLIAMS, remained in the position of reserve and continued to deepen the trenches already commenced and now vacated, by B Coy. Other trenches of the same system were occupied by the Battalion Signallers and Battalion HQ. In order to defilade the trenches now occupied by the MANCHESTER REGT Battalion of the 14th INF BDE, B Coy was moved by the Brigadier General to a new position facing South East in the ditches on either side of the REUMONT road. As the North side of the road was higher than the South, they formed two tiers of fire and were able to produce considerable concentrated fire effect. A culvert under the road was used as a channel of communication between the two firing lines. They were fronting the village of LE CATEAU with a range of vision of about 600 yards to their front and covering with their fire a low depression of the ground over which the enemy attacking from the East must advance to reach the trenches of the MANCHESTER REGT Battalion. The left Platoon of B Coy was detached about 60 yards, half each side of the road, under Lt HIBBERT. Next to the left, the position of B Coy and of its supports, remained unaltered. That of A Coy, again to their left, was a little extended, its left Platoon being in close touch with the KING’S OWN SCOTTISH BORDERERS and its right in touch with D Coy but the trenches being disconnected, inter-communication was impossible when once the action had commenced.

The 122nd, 123rd and 124th Field Btys had come into position almost in the line of our supports, the 124th on the right, immediately to the left rear of B Coy.

A narrow sunk country road running East and West from the direction of LE CÂTEAU to the village of TROIS VILLES, marked the left of B Coy and divided this Company from the supports of D Coy. Near the junction of this road with the big REUMONT road, the 124th Battery was in position and the sunk road was full of horses and limbers etc.

The net result of these alterations in the dispositions for the 2nd Bn KING’S OWN YORKSHIRE LIGHT INF was that the HQ, with B Coy and one Platoon of C Coy, were left South of the country road, while the whole of the rest of the Battalion was in position North of it and a deep narrow road filled with artillery etc cut diagonally across the ground between the two halves of their position. To the right of the 2nd Bn KING’S OWN YORKSHIRE LIGHT INF, the 14th INF BDE was in full view and close touch.

Before 6:00 am, an order was received in the Brigadier General’s handwriting as follows:

“Orders have now been changed. There will be no retirement for the fighting troops. Fill up your trenches as far as possible with water, food and ammunition.”

Later, Lt Col KINCAID-SMITH of the II CORPS HQ staff rode up and reposted the order for “no retirement”. This order was given to the signallers to be conveyed to all our Company Commanders and Sgt WILLINGTON, Signalling Sergeant, reported that this had been done. The Brigade Provost-Sergeant rode up to Battalion HQ to enquire for the exact position of the Battalion Commander and to communicate the position of the Brigade HQ (which was not connected by telephone) and the position of the Brigadier General. He distinctly indicated the distant tree called ARBRE on the map as the latter’s position and repeated this when questioned. Messengers sent to this position returned, unable to find the Brigadier. However, communication by messenger with the Brigade official HQ was established and an answer to a message asking that Lt UNETT, Brigade MGO, should be permitted to take command of the Battalion machine guns for the day, was received in the affirmative and Lt UNETT arrived accordingly about 6:00 am and took over the machine guns from Lt DENISON, whose services were needed with his Company.

Tea was distributed from the Battalion cooker before 6:00 am, at the Battalion HQ position. Later, after the Companies had sent back their Company ammunition animals, which were now collected with the Battalion transport under the Quartermaster near the place where the Battalion had bivouacked, the ammunition carts were brought up in turn, at a trot and offloaded alongside the Battalion HQ position. The boxes of ammunition were distributed to Companies by hand, by the Signallers, as far as was found possible.

Some time after the action had commenced, Lt UNETT moved his guns from the left of our position, where they had a poor field of fire, to the extreme right, taking up his position 30 yards South of the REUMONT road, on the right flank of B Coy. Lt RAWDON, Transport Officer, after bringing up spare ammunition and ordering the 1st Line Transport back, obtained permission to join his Company in the firing line.

The first shots in the day were fired before 6:00 am by some German cavalry who were reconnoitring almost up to the lines. Not long after, enemy’s guns came into action. One of the first guns ranging, threw a shell into our Regimental transport position.

The high ground now occupied by the SUFFOLK REGT Battalion on our right, became the centre of an attack. The enemy poured a concentrated gun fire on our Batteries all along the line. The town of LE CATEAU appeared to be occupied by the enemy from the very first. His formations issued from the woods some miles East of LE CATEAU and could be seen advancing in mass towards LE CATEAU. Also, three large bodies of troops appeared to disappear into the low ground South of the town and to be pushing round the South of this position occupied by our Division.

The ridge held by the SUFFOLK REGT Battalion was taken and again reoccupied by the Battalion in counter-attack. From the time that it was again occupied by the enemy, B Coy and the right Platoon of D Coy (Lt WYNNE), were constantly engaged, their fire was directed to prevent any further advance along the high ground and coming from an unexpected quarter, was apparently very effective.

Towards 3:00 pm, they witnessed an advance of dense masses of the enemy, of the strength of two Battalions, who swept over the crest and down through turnip fields beneath the ridge. Allowing them to advance about 100 yards down the forward slope, they reserved their fire and then all opened “Rapid”. The losses of the enemy were numerous and the whole mass moved back and disappeared again behind the ridge. Half an hour later, the enemy advanced again more cautiously and it was then seen that he stretched far away to the South West, enveloping our right. This constituted the third attack of the Germans in this quarter, which gained ground slowly, gradually concentrating their fire on B Coy, until they almost enfiladed them from the South West. The attack came from the direction of LE CATEAU. By Lt HIBBERT’s range card, the ridge was distant 600 yards and fire was opened on the massed attack at 500 yards distance.

Lt WYNNE’s Platoon was the connecting link between B and D Coys and was across the corner of the angle where their lines produced would meet and was very much exposed to fire.

In order to support the attack on the ridge, the enemy, taking advantage of the cutting through which the CAMBRAI road ran, brought up a Battery of machine guns and established them there. These guns were very troublesome all the day.

Lt UNETT had called for volunteers to dig his guns into their position South of the road. The shrapnel fire was plastering the ground. L/Cpl KING and Pte MITCHELL volunteered. When in position, he opened fire about 8:30 am on the enemy attempting to enfilade the SUFFOLK REGT from a small round wood North East of them and threw back successive attacks along the ridge. Later, one gun was knocked out by a shell. Sgt HUNN was wounded and about 2:20 pm, when the 14th INF BDE had retired and his right flank was open, he found it necessary to withdraw the remaining gun. The gun was carried into a trench of B Coy’s and Lt UNETT, with the tripod, came back to the Battalion HQ trench. The ground between the two was swept by a close and concentrated rifle fire by this time and Lt UNETT could not be permitted to attempt to bring the gun back to the place where his tripod was. The gun was broken up before capture in the trench.

At about 2:45 pm, Lt UNETT was sent back to the Brigade HQ to explain the position of our exposed right flank and to ask for assistance to recover the ground on our right. The Brigade HQ had, however, been moved. He reported also that the WEST KENT REGT Battalion which had been entrenched in our rear about 100 yards back was apparently moving back to a position further in rear.

The firing line of D Coy, other than Lt WYNNE’s Platoon, was heavily engaged to its front and also with the enemy machine gun Battery on its right front. When casualties were heavy, Capt SIMPSON led a reinforcing party from the Company support line, under heavy fire and got into the advanced trenches. He was himself wounded in getting there, Lt NOEL was wounded about the same time. Further to the left, at about 11.30 am, Lt BUTT, with 11 Pl of C Coy, reinforced the firing line, Sgt PATTERSON (whose promotion to a commission dated from this day) bringing up the second half of the Platoon. They continued to occupy this position until badly enfiladed from a position North of them, which was occupied by the enemy after the retirement of the KING’S OWN SCOTTISH BORDERERS. At about 3:30 pm, when the position was quite untenable, they attempted to retire to a position in rear. Lt BUTT was now wounded and Sgt PATTERSON killed.

Some of A Coy trenches were nearer the KING’S OWN SCOTTISH BORDERERS position. Sgt MARCHANT was in the nearest, representing the extreme left. He was able, with the fire from his trench, to prevent the enemy from bringing up machine guns to their new position but could not prevent the occupation of the high ground by infantry. His trench was unsupported and he was unable to effect a retirement and was eventually overrun by the enemy.

At about 3:25 pm, Maj HEATHCOTE and Capt LUTHER attempted to reinforce the A Coy trenches, occupied up to this time by Capt GATACRE. The ground however, was swept by rifle fire and only about a dozen men reached Capt GATACRE. Capt LUTHER was wounded. A great number of casualties occurred during this rush, including 2 Lt HITCHIE, who was killed. Capt GATACRE’s trenches were overrun by the Germans some little time afterwards. Lt DENISON was left mortally wounded in the head. Though blind he had continued to encourage his men in the trench until he became insensible. He died in hospital at MONS some weeks later.

The line of resistance was rolled up from left to right. A Coy had come into action about 8:00 am, when D Coy also opened fire. B Coy, waiting for a dense target, opened fire generally some time after 11:00 am. By the time of capture, ammunition was completely exhausted in the front line trenches. Half the Battalion reserve of ammunition had been brought in before the action. After the action commenced it was impracticable to bring further carts up or to distribute the ammunition by hand to Companies.

The enemy’s artillery bombardment, which had been directed in great measure on our field guns, succeeded in silencing our guns an hour or so after 12:00 pm. At about 1:00 pm there was a lull. The gun teams had been shot to pieces. One gun came out with a team of three horses. At about 1:30 pm the battle was renewed; the shelling and machine gun fire was directed on the infantry trenches exclusively, the enemy infantry generally gaining ground on the ridge West of LE CATEAU.

Some time before 3:00 pm, the whole of the ridge West of LE CATEAU was in the hands of the enemy.

By 3:10 pm, it was known to us that the WEST KENT REGT, the reserve Battalion of the Brigade, had been retired to a position in rear. The higher ground occupied originally by the KING’S OWN SCOTTISH BORDERERS was in the occupation of the enemy. The position occupied by the 2nd Bn KING’S OWN YORKSHIRE LIGHT INF was now surrounded on three sides but it was obvious that the Brigade as a whole was occupying a position a little distance in rear. Retirement was out of the question besides no order cancelling that of 6:00 am had been received by 2nd Bn KING’S OWN YORKSHIRE LIGHT INF.

A very heavy and accurate fire was directed on the trenches before the end. At about 4:20 pm, the final rush came. In B Coy, Maj YATE gave the order to meet it with a charge but the number of men near him able to support it was so small that his desperate call met with practically no response. Maj YATE himself, with other Officers of his Company, was overpowered and disarmed. Lt HIBBERT had been wounded.

The Battalion HQ trench was the last to go.

The single field gun, which had been brought away, continued to fire down the road from a position in rear, while the enemy were overrunning the 2nd Bn KING’S OWN YORKSHIRE LIGHT INF trenches.

For some little time the Germans had been sounding our “Cease fire” and attempts were also made by them to call upon the 2nd Bn KING’S OWN YORKSHIRE LIGHT INF to surrender but Maj YATE, who commanded the firing line, refused to allow a flag to approach.

Besides 16 Officers, 320 rank and file were captured (wounded and unwounded).

On the 29th Aug, Maj GRAY, RIF, was brought down the REUMONT road to LE CATEAU as a prisoner. Our dead were still unburied then, though there were burying parties at work over the fields. Maj GRAY counted the dead on both sides of the road, chiefly in the B Coy trenches alongside the road. He counted 62 bodies.

Sgt CLARKE, whose commission was to date from the 26th Aug also, was killed in a B Coy trench in the act of firing, by one of the last shots fired.

As to the German troops with whom we were immediately engaged, the following is quoted from Lt WYNNE’s diary, from an entry made immediately after he had been taken prisoner:

“We were taken into the yard belonging to the remains of a farm at the crossroads and placed under a strong guard there. The troops that had captured our position and who now guarded us belonged to four different Regiments, the 26th, the 66th, the 72nd and the 3rd Guards Regt.”

R C BOND Lt Col

2nd Bn KING’S OWN YORKSHIRE LIGHT INF

Note: References are to the maps issued by the War Office for use on mobilization.

Fantastic effort Martin and very interesting to read. Thank you for sourcing, typing and posting it all.

[seaforths]

Yes just from the photos that I have seen of POW's from the early war period, they seemed to have always been loading them onto trains (so very good logistics).

So probably not a lot of marching involved (re shoulderboards rolled back on guards). The report that Martin provided stated they were held at Le Cateau for a week.

Interesting what you say about the POW reports, the unit that I have under investigation was later noted as being 'immobile' (that is a 'resting' unit), guarding prisoners.

Cheers, S>S

The information I posted seemed to refer more to the guards at the camps themselves rather than in transit. Yes, I read Martin's information too but I do wonder if the time spent there varied? Thinking from the point of view that they couldn't possibly process them all at once and put them all on one train. Those wounded would have to be attended or moved first to receive attention etc. I would also expect the officers and men POWs to be segregated.

Extracted from an undated letter written by Yate’s cousin to Mr Chamberlain:

‘...We know by the German papers that he endeavoured to escape from the Torgau fort where he was confined. The German papers published his photograph and a notice of his attempt to escape, followed by a notice of his recapture and a story that he had killed himself...’ Judging by correspondence on file linked to this letter that is dated August 1915 it is probable that this letter too was written around that time.

At the moment this is the only reference I can find that links a photograph of him appearing in German press. That is not to say that they used the particular photograph we are referring to nor might it be the only time the image was used. In theory, it could have been used earlier, say, shortly after capture or en-route to Torgau but as a picture that showed more prisoners than just Yate alone. That it was used to accompany news of his escape and re-capture might explain it being cropped to just show him. From that source it could have been used much later in a British publication - possibly post war. I am still of the feeling that they wouldn't have wanted to show a British officer subdued by his captors to the British public during the war.

[seaforths]

For those interested in the battle aspect, they might find the following transcription of interest:

‘K.O.Y.L.I
General Account of the Battle of Le Cateau
“At Le Cateau on the 26th Aug. The 2nd K.O.Y.L.I lost 600 men, of whom 350 are prisoners. We started fighting on the 23rd Aug., Sunday, at 1.30p.m., holding the Germans back all day and retired at night, fighting a rear-guard action. On Tuesday we marched, out-distanced them, and took up a position round Le Cateau, and Wednesday fought the battle of Le Cateau. The fighting was in open country and there was a great artillery muster by the Germans which caused us tremendous losses. Some battalions had to give way. Others were left behind necessarily to hold the enemy while the rest were escaping. We lost 16 officers besides the 600 men. I have mentioned. 13 of them are prisoners. The action commenced about 9 o’clocka.m. When the Manchesters and Suffolks were pressed back on our right we were almost enveloped and at 4.30 orders were given to get away as best we could. B. Coy., however, did not, I believe, get the order and charged with Major Yates, being almost wiped out. Only 17 got back to us of that Coy. At 10 o’clock at night what was left of the regt. Was reorganised and we marched away to St Quentin.” JD.
Reference: Sgt. Spooner
Casino Hospital
Boulogne, 9th April 1915.’

[seaforths]

For those not interested in the V.C. please look away from your screen now (or use the scroll button on the mouse).

For those like myself who seek to know more, I found the following interesting and which I didn't know before. It seems that those who won the V.C. and were awarded posthumously probably didn’t appear in the Army Lists because the original Warrant made no provision for posthumous awards. Therefore, they were not originally awarded posthumously. From around 1902 they began to bend the rules a little by making awards to those who would have received it had they not subsequently died and in WW1 they unofficially awarded it posthumously despite the Warrant. The Warrant was not amended until 1920 to include awards of the V.C. and bars posthumously:
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31946/page/6702

[Guest]

Thanks for the warning. I din't look I promise.

The reason they don't appear in the Army List is because they are dead. The Army List only lists the living. If the Army list continued to list the dead it would be a rather hefty tome.

Yate appears in the 1914 Army List but not the May 1915 Army List. Officers awarded the VC who are alive appear in the Army List. I think GRIUMPY made this point a few posts ago.

MG

[seaforths]

Thanks for the warning. I din't look I promise.

The reason they don't appear in the Army List is because they are dead. The Army List only lists the living. If the Army list continued to list the dead it would be a rather hefty tome.

Yate appears in the 1914 Army List but not the May 1915 Army List. Officers awarded the VC who are alive appear in the Army List. I think GRIUMPY made this point a few posts ago.

MG

Thanks Martin - you were I see!

Initially he said there was a two month hiatus in the list and asked which one he didn't appear in - I then guessed by the other content he had answered my question When I was looking at the award and how posthumous awards were handled I found the information regarding the Warrant being amended in 1920. Also something about a quarter of WW1 awards being posthumous. The Army Lists I find complicated and confounding at times - but I'm getting there and working on trying to understand how they work. When I saw the two ORs gazetted with him in the list of VC winners I thought it odd he wasn't with them. While I knew he wasn't alive at the time he was Gazetted I didn't realise that:

a. They would only post for those living.

b.The VC was not officially supposed to be given posthumously.

No more VC - now that I have a much better understanding - thank you for your patience!

Edit: I can't use the letter b followed by a bracket because it puts an emoticon face there instead so I had to edit.

[shippingsteel]

In an attempt to bring our focus back onto the contents of the photo ... (thanks guys.!) I will repost here again to allow us to take a fresh look.

I have been accused by some (via PM) of not taking notice of the evidence. Really? So exactly what evidence is there that this was at Le Cateau.

It should be easy as falling off a horse to disprove my theory that this was taken in a POW camp in Germany. Identify the unit & place at the battle.!

This was what I did before opening this thread. Looked for Bavarians at the battle of Le Cateau. There was no sign of them in the Order of Battle's.

And what about the photo and caption. Nowhere does it say anything about the location of the photo. It has just been assumed that it's after capture.

Has anyone mentioned the binoculars he is holding.? I guess that is their case he has nestled under his arm. Does that fit with any of the accounts.?

Is this a natural pose for someone who looks to be standing in a cobblestone courtyard and apparently surrounded by high walls ... and armed guards.

Seaforths noted there was something reported in the German press with a photo that was taken after he was recaptured making an escape attempt.?

Now that is extremely interesting. I notice he is surrounded by at least 5 guards all with rifles with bayonets attached. Looks very much a 'press gang'.

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

Reading back through the posts I noticed this again. The Torgau POW camp was an Offizierlager which also held French Officers. The main stockade was Fort Zinna.

So I began researching Fort Zinna, which it seems has been a notorious prison through quite a few periods. There are numerous photos shown on the net of the Fort.

Of particular interest here are the striking white walls and the multi level cell blocks with those squarish-looking windows. Very similar to those in background of photo.

Also the large cobblestone courtyard is shown in this photo below. On the basis of this new 'evidence' I am going to update my theory to include "taken at Fort Zinna".

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

Returning to the photograph, they seem to be standing under an opening of some sort. An archway? White building in the background with an open door and a window top right? I don't think it is a farm.

Just pointing out that it was Seaforths that alerted us to the background in the photo, so good job.! I think everyone who has posted has contributed something in some way.

Cheers, S>S

[trajan]

On 14/05/2014 at 09:13, seaforths said:

No more VC - now that I have a much better understanding - thank you for your patience!

Edit: I can't use the letter b followed by a bracket because it puts an emoticon face there instead so I had to edit.

I think a great majority of us have a better understanding now about how VC's were awarded in WWI.

That old a), , c) problem ... Centurion enlightened me on a way around it... B with a square closed bracket like this - b] or B]

Trajan

[trajan]

Hi S>S>,

Has anyone mentioned the binoculars he is holding.? I guess that is their case he has nestled under his arm. Does that fit with any of the accounts.?

I think you will find that those binoculars are mentioned on several posts relating to this photograph, just for one example, above in post 21. Without going back to the other earlier threads on Major Yate that also mention this point, I think that it was the fact that he still had these that gave rise to the general assumption that the photograph was taken soon after he was captured. Apart from making a nice little souvenir for somebody, I would think that the OIC (or even the NCOIC on the left!) would NOT want an officer POW retaining possession of binoc's with which he might be able to see a little bit too much (and remember) before he was relieved of them! (Of course, it might just be an empty case, although if you are going to take the binoc's then I think most of use would take the case as well!). To be frank, I doubt if we'll ever be able to prove the point one way or another, but I personally I still think 'soon after [initial] capture' rather than later.

Just pointing out that it was Seaforths that alerted us to the background in the photo, so good job.! I think everyone who has posted has contributed something in some way.

Cheers, S>S

Indeed! A very lively and stimulating debate, in which all of us have learnt something or the other that was entirely new! Now, S>S>, let's have the unit, eh?

TTFN,

PS: And when you have time, do please take a look at the 7th Manchester P.1888 thread! We'd all welcome your comments!

[shippingsteel]

On the basis of this new 'evidence' I am going to update my theory to include "taken at Fort Zinna".

Far too busy researching Trajan, haha.! For every clue that gets unearthed there is yet another door to open. I think that's the fun part, you never know where it will lead.

So following up on the above, I now have to nail down the place. Luckily there are some old archive photos still around, because most of the prison was later redeveloped.

I think Seaforths has already got the time of the photo, it was after being recaptured the first time he escaped and when it appeared in the German newspaper. (But which?)

As for the place, yes location Torgau, in the prison Fort Zinna, under the main fortress gate, with the Napoleonic era Rotunda building in the background, for the newspaper.

Cheers, S>S

[trajan]

Far too busy researching Trajan, haha.! For every clue that gets unearthed there is yet another door to open. I think that's the fun part, you never know where it will lead.

... I think Seaforths has already got the time of the photo, it was after being recaptured the first time he escaped and when it appeared in the German newspaper. (But which?)

Go-on, those Manchester P.1888's won't take you more than 10 minutes ! But yes, the joys of researching... All consuming... Never ending...

I must have missed the one from Seaforths... Not surprising what with one thing or another. (e.g., exam and essay grading, solving what my odd 'Gras' bayonet is, this fascinating thread, etc.!)...

TTFN,

Trajan

[Guest]

Thanks Martin - you were I see!

Initially he said there was a two month hiatus in the list and asked which one he didn't appear in - I then guessed by the other content he had answered my question When I was looking at the award and how posthumous awards were handled I found the information regarding the Warrant being amended in 1920. Also something about a quarter of WW1 awards being posthumous. The Army Lists I find complicated and confounding at times - but I'm getting there and working on trying to understand how they work. When I saw the two ORs gazetted with him in the list of VC winners I thought it odd he wasn't with them. While I knew he wasn't alive at the time he was Gazetted I didn't realise that:

a. They would only post for those living.

b.The VC was not officially supposed to be given posthumously.

No more VC - now that I have a much better understanding - thank you for your patience!

Edit: I can't use the letter b followed by a bracket because it puts an emoticon face there instead so I had to edit.

Th 1914 Army list is available free online. Yate appears in it. It is full of esoteric annotations. I have 1914 and May 1915 and when trying to cross check names it is always quite sad to see names of 2 Lts appearing in 1914 diaries , not appearing in the 1914 Army List (they were gazetted after publication) and not Appearing in the 1915 Army list. It is usually an indication they were killed or wounded and discharged.

For the letter b just put a double space b )

[spof]

Th 1914 Army list is available free online. Yate appears in it. It is full of esoteric annotations. I have 1914 and May 1915 and when trying to cross check names it is always quite sad to see names of 2 Lts appearing in 1914 diaries , not appearing in the 1914 Army List (they were gazetted after publication) and not Appearing in the 1915 Army list. It is usually an indication they were killed or wounded and discharged.

For the letter b just put a double space b )

Martin

With your focus on 1914, you might also appreciate some of the pre-war ones as well. There is also a 1915 edition online for free too.

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=205809

Glen

[seaforths]

Th 1914 Army list is available free online. Yate appears in it. It is full of esoteric annotations. I have 1914 and May 1915 and when trying to cross check names it is always quite sad to see names of 2 Lts appearing in 1914 diaries , not appearing in the 1914 Army List (they were gazetted after publication) and not Appearing in the 1915 Army list. It is usually an indication they were killed or wounded and discharged.

For the letter b just put a double space b )

Thank you Martin, I found the online versions. If anything, I have to hold my hand up to not being as thorough as I should have been. I find scrolling through thousands of pages to get to where I want to be a bit tedious by mouse (particularly as my mouse is being very temperamental on the wheel functions) and the side bar scroll is a bit sensitive to hone into the page you need so I do the math thing, as I did in this case and got pretty close to the page he was on - only a page away in fact. However, because of that, I missed this:

What I had seen previously which was what I couldn't understand (because I had missed the above) was this:

and this:

In the process of learning regarding the V.C. Another general lesson learnt for me - always start at the beginning even if what you seek is in the middle or at the end! I am sorry for causing confusion and I do appreciate the patience shown. If you heard a scraping noise followed by a large loud clank yesterday - that would be the penny dropping in my head! I am off to sit on the chair of penitence for 10 minutes and I shall return.

I don't know if you found Spooner's statement useful - interesting he makes reference to a charge but that could be based on what he had heard rather than what he had seen. Given the date and place he made the statement, I am guessing that he got through Le Cateau and was wounded in another action.

And thank you for top tips on bracket 2.

[seaforths]

Far too busy researching Trajan, haha.! For every clue that gets unearthed there is yet another door to open. I think that's the fun part, you never know where it will lead.

So following up on the above, I now have to nail down the place. Luckily there are some old archive photos still around, because most of the prison was later redeveloped.

I think Seaforths has already got the time of the photo, it was after being recaptured the first time he escaped and when it appeared in the German newspaper. (But which?)

As for the place, yes location Torgau, in the prison Fort Zinna, under the main fortress gate, with the Napoleonic era Rotunda building in the background, for the newspaper.

Cheers, S>S

I guess we must have been thinking along the same lines but at opposite ends of the line! I was kind of inspired by that fab thread of then and now images and thought to look at the places we know him to have been at so Le Cateau, Magdeburg and Torgau. Having looked at the railway maps and thought they couldn't have been marched back for days (as many were) to the nearest railhead, I turned my attention to Le Cateau. Therefore I have been trying to locate and look at images old and new for that location.

There have been instances citing his 'many' escape attempts that I have read elsewhere and possibly here on the forum too. However, I have not been able to find any evidence to substantiate that to be true. The only thing I have been able to find is the alleged attempt to jump from the train on the way to Torgau and his actual escape in which he died. At that time he was dressed in makeshift civilian clothing when he was recaptured - minus the felt hat he had when he absconded.

What is clear and there is evidence to support is that Mrs Yate was in Switzerland and was able to get information from Germany regarding his fate in 1915. She was relaying that information back to Col. Yate his cousin and he was acting on it - hence my quote from his letter (the subject of which was to address her pension but had other information within its pages). The information Mrs Yate received from Germany regarding his escape was conflicting and I am not sure, would all be sourced from the newspaper. A statement from a French soldier and another from a Miss Cox (whoever she was) both give accounts that contradict him taking his own life. Others might have seen this too, and it has given rise to speculation on him making 'many' attempts to escape. Let us not forget, his time in captivity was very short for 'many' attempts to have been made.

The later post war investigation carried out by Breen is acknowledged by Col Yate (cousin) as concurring with but adding no further information to that already gleaned by Mrs Yate in 1915 from Germany. If anyone feels it would be of benefit to know the conflicting information of the French soldier and Miss Cox I will be happy to transcribe the content. Personally, I feel it would probably muddy the waters further as it may have done in the past however I realise that others may prefer to see it and draw their own conclusions.

However, something else that occurs to me is that it seems the Foreign Office were contacted and asked to investigate the death of Major Yate quite early on and I do wonder if there is a FO file on the subject. I do not have experience of searching FO files at the TNA but I am willing to look - any pointers and advice in that area would be greatly appreciated.

[shippingsteel]

I am now looking for the local papers of Torgau through the newspaper archives. Noticing plenty of German propaganda ending up in the American journals.

Any clues as to where the German papers in that area were printed would certainly be useful. Only leads I have are still very sketchy. But I will keep looking.

Cheers, S>S

[trajan]

There have been so many back and forths on this and parallel sites, that this quote I have just found on Yate might have been posted previously and I could have missed it, and if so apologies, but just in case (my addition in italics):

"Berlin, September 22nd. [1914] — On the night of September 19-20, Major Charles-Alice Yate, Yorkshire Light Infantry, escaped from Torgau, where hewas a prisoner of war. Yate is that superior officer of whom it was stated, the other day, that when interrogated, he did not deny that the English troops were provided with dum-dum bullets. In the course of this examination, he declared that the soldier must evidently use the munitions served out to him bythe Government. The fugitive is about 1.75m. tall; he is slight, fair, and speaks German well."

Well, at 1.75 not as tall as the photograph makes him seem! So whether Bayerische bayern sohne or whatever, those guards are on the somewhat short side!

Trajan

[trajan]

Seaforths, Seaforth78, do you know this one? The Laibacher Zeitung for 26 September 1914, see page 1930, on the 'Selbstmord eines englisch Majors', starts bottom of the middle column and goes onto the third.

It might add nowt - I haven't tried to read never mind translate it as I am at home with the boys and I leave for a 10 day trip on Saturday so need to be on call for them rather than get involved in a 30-45 task right now! If you don't know it, and if time permits, then I'll have a go later.

[seaforths]

Trajan I will try to get to it and hope it is available online. This I feel refers to his escape from Torgau that resulted in his death. The article regarding Dum dum bullets I didn't introduce to the topic because the source for that was a Norwegian newspaper and as far as I could gather there was no photograph.

SS - You seem to be of the opinion that he made an earlier escape that might have had him captured on camera resulting in the photograph we are collectively studying. I am aware that we are all looking at various sources we have to hand; Martin with the diaries and histories, myself with his file etc. In effect we are all bringing what we have to the table and are willing to share. Do you have that 'first' escape from a reliable source? It would be so much appreciated by the rest of us if you do and felt you could share it.

You guys are lucky indeed being able to search German newspaper archives. I have to rely on St Google of the T'interweb. However Trajan, I will try to locate and look at the articles you mention. It's great after all this time we are able at last to find out what the German press were saying about him.

[trajan]

... However Trajan, I will try to locate and look at the articles you mention. It's great after all this time we are able at last to find out what the German press were saying about him.

My oversight - really sorry as I do try to supply references whenever I can: just that things are rather hectic here - and I will PM later or tomorrow - but the first quote came from:

http://archive.org/stream/germanpostersinb00davirich/germanpostersinb00davirich_djvu.txt

This is an internet archive site reporting: "German posters in Belgium, their value as evidence, new texts and documents;" Search for 'Yate' and three versions will come up, German, French and English - but of course I haven't seen the book or whatever.

I have done a very quick transcript while the boys are playing football outside but that has to be improved on. The report is essentially about the suspicion at the sugar factory, the bag with english-language papers in it, and the quickly produced razor and suicide.

Julian

[trajan]

Whoops - a sentence and a reference got lost in transmission...

second one (the Laibacher newspaper) is PDF at: http://www.dlib.si/details/URN:NBN:SI:doc-4Z1HZ6CW

See page 1930, middle column, bottom thereof going into 3rd column

I have done a very quick transcript while the boys are playing football outside but that has to be improved on. The report is essentially about the suspicion at the sugar factory, the bag with English-language papers in it, and the challenge and how - ...zog der Fremde blitzschnell ein Rasiermesser hervor und durchschnitt sich die Kehle. Er verblutete in wenigen Minuten. Der Fremde war der Major Charles Alice Yate.

Poor chap...