Capture of Major Yate

[Muerrisch]

I keep going back to the photograph, as we all do.

I expect learned readers will have heard of Inherent Military Probability ......... if not it Googles nicley.

By extension of the theory, I have great difficulty in believing the photo was taken other than in the immediate aftermath of capture. Apart from weapons, Major Yate has all the accoutrements that I would expect to find on a field officer of light infantry before the captors started to souvenir him.

I have not found the illustration in my "War Illustrated" I fear.

The caption post-dates his VC Gazetting, as it is verbatim from that, with topping and tailing.

[Guest]

The caption post-dates his VC Gazetting, as it is verbatim from that, with topping and tailing.

I would agree.

[trajan]

Here is a report on Yate dated November 1914 which mentions a photograph of him being recently published

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83045389/1914-11-29/ed-1/seq-3/#date1=1914&index=0&rows=20&searchType=advanced&language=&sequence=0&words=Major+Yate&proxdistance=5&date2=1914&ortext=&proxtext=MAjor+Yate&phrasetext=&andtext=&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1

http://books.google.com/books?id=UvflAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA457&dq=Major+Yate+VC&hl=en&sa=X&ei=uEh5U_KlFIihqAacpYHICQ&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Major%20Yate%20VC&f=false

My golly gosh! I wasn't able to see this before leaving for work this morning and doubtless there will be a few replies to this post since then. But PFF, I just want to put on record my appreciation of that that Richmond reference in particular! The mystery does deepen (even though when I read the next posts it may have been solved!): how come they didn't know he was already dead at the time of the VC being gazetted?

[trajan]

I keep going back to the photograph, as we all do.

I expect learned readers will have heard of Inherent Military Probability ......... if not it Googles nicley.

By extension of the theory, I have great difficulty in believing the photo was taken other than in the immediate aftermath of capture. Apart from weapons, Major Yate has all the accoutrements that I would expect to find on a field officer of light infantry before the captors started to souvenir him.

I have not found the illustration in my "War Illustrated" I fear.

The caption post-dates his VC Gazetting, as it is verbatim from that, with topping and tailing.

I would agree.

Yes, we can split hairs about exactly how soon after capture, although to my mind the high probability of those guards being Bavarian suggests on route from le cateau to somewhere - unless S>S> has found a Bavarian unit in the area in 2nd or 3rd line? I think there was a mixed battalion of reserve troops there (I mentioned it in a much earlier post but don't have time to check which now - already late for dinner appointment!).

Still, though, this to my mind the added mystery of the poor chap having been over a month dead when the photograph with caption was published and yet it (and that Richmond newspaper article) indicate a belief that he was still alive...

Trajan

[seaforths]

Yes, we can split hairs about exactly how soon after capture, although to my mind the high probability of those guards being Bavarian suggests on route from le cateau to somewhere - unless S>S> has found a Bavarian unit in the area in 2nd or 3rd line? I think there was a mixed battalion of reserve troops there (I mentioned it in a much earlier post but don't have time to check which now - already late for dinner appointment!).

Still, though, this to my mind the added mystery of the poor chap having been over a month dead when the photograph with caption was published and yet it (and that Richmond newspaper article) indicate a belief that he was still alive...

Trajan

Le Cateau to Cambrai. It seems they were not entrained at Le Cateau (I am speaking of Bond now) they were marched to Cambrai but I think it possible that Yate was either taken to Le Cateau or Cambrai. As I said earlier, he was out of control and that he seems to have been removed from the battlefield by car, Cambrai is not without possibilities.

Edit: earlier omission. The guard according to Bond, are Prussian.

[Guest]

Having just read the relevant chapter on Bond's capture in 'Prisoners Grave and Gay" a few things stick out

1. Yate remonstrating with a German Officer on the position immediately after capture insisting that the German shoots him.

2. Bond mentioning he left the position with Yate still shouting the odds.

3. Bond saying that he had been stripped of every item for souvenirs, including his silk handkerchief.

4. Bond does not mention Yate by name when describing the first few days in captivity.

Yate and Bond (I think) were (initially) dealt with separately. This might be something to do with Yate's fluent German and the possibility that the Germans thought they could possibly extract more info from Yate due to his German. It still seems very odd that Bond was stripped of all his possessions and Yate was not.

[seaforths]

Having just read the relevant chapter on Bond's capture in 'Prisoners Grave and Gay" a few things stick out

1. Yate remonstrating with a German Officer on the position immediately after capture insisting that the German shoots him.

2. Bond mentioning he left the position with Yate still shouting the odds.

3. Bond saying that he had been stripped of every item for souvenirs, including his silk handkerchief.

4. Bond does not mention Yate by name when describing the first few days in captivity.

Yate and Bond (I think) were (initially) dealt with separately. This might be something to do with Yate's fluent German and the possibility that the Germans thought they could possibly extract more info from Yate due to his German. It still seems very odd that Bond was stripped of all his possessions and Yate was not.

Yes, I believe I said that earlier. Yate I referred to as 'out of control', was taken from the battlefield in a car. Also referring to way back, the capturing unit were 72 IR (according to what Yate told Breen). Mons too might not be totally out of the question by car. It seems that Padre O'Rorke was captured at Landrecies and they seemed to have a similar experience to the KOYLI, kept at Landrecies for a few days but then they were marched to Mons. Practice seems to have differed regarding who did what. The Germans, it seems were not consistent. O'Rorke and his unit, possibly because they were mainly RAMC, had their knives taken away but got to keep all the other stuff which they found such a burden to carry through Torgau when they eventually got there.

Where ever he was, he managed to get a letter to his wife in Switzerland which he dated 2nd September. In comparison, I believe it was October when they were even allowed to send a postcard from Torgau. He mentions them having seen their deaths in the newspapers and commented as such as they were playing cards. If you read Bond's account of the days in Le Cateau, I believe he mentions the unit that was in the action pulled out to pursue the British Army.

Edit: typo

[trajan]

Le Cateau to Cambrai. It seems they were not entrained at Le Cateau (I am speaking of Bond now) they were marched to Cambrai but I think it possible that Yate was either taken to Le Cateau or Cambrai. As I said earlier, he was out of control and that he seems to have been removed from the battlefield by car, Cambrai is not without possibilities.

Edit: earlier omission. The guard according to Bond, are Prussian.

I would have to check with Bond, but think he says that the officer is Prussian and from another regiment altogether to the guard. I think he also says how the captives were being stripped of various things as souvenirs - including badges: again I'll need to check. But in any case, Yate is not with him, so Bavarian Guards in the photograph is still an odds-on possibility. Whatever the colour of their tunics and their weaponry, the lower cockade of the field cap of a Prussian regiment would have a very distinctive and clear dark centre which these guys don't have.

[seaforths]

Also interesting that the two officers he arrives at Torgau with could also have been captured at Landrecies (possibly 2nd Connaught Rangers but definitely Connaught Rangers). So, if those who were captured at Landrecies ended up in Mons and Major Yate travelled by train with a couple of them to Torgau via Magdeburg, it is marginally possible that they could have met at Mons. Bit of a shot in the dark.

[seaforths]

I would have to check with Bond, but think he says that the officer is Prussian and from another regiment altogether to the guard. I think he also says how the captives were being stripped of various things as souvenirs - including badges: again I'll need to check. But in any case, Yate is not with him, so Bavarian Guards in the photograph is still an odds-on possibility. Whatever the colour of their tunics and their weaponry, the lower cockade of the field cap of a Prussian regiment would have a very distinctive and clear dark centre which these guys don't have.

Ok so any chance of Bavarians in Cambrai or Mons at that time?? I was working on this before I saw Martin's first post earlier and I have to say I was struggling to put any in Cambrai but I didn't get as far as looking at Mons.

[seaforths]

Re my earlier posts on newspaper archives, I've found this site:
http://www.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/helios/digi/feldzeitungen.html

It seems to show a mix of both German and French papers but I can't understand any of it. However, it does look like the first example is a paper that has images from 1914. I will try to plod on with the site to the best of my ability after all, it is a photo I'm looking for and I don't need to speak it to look but it makes searching the archive quite errrm...challenging. Anyone speaking German or French please feel free to take a look and tell me if I'm barking up the wrong tree (or barking mad) I don't mind which.

[seaforths]

I keep going back to the photograph, as we all do.

I expect learned readers will have heard of Inherent Military Probability ......... if not it Googles nicley.

By extension of the theory, I have great difficulty in believing the photo was taken other than in the immediate aftermath of capture. Apart from weapons, Major Yate has all the accoutrements that I would expect to find on a field officer of light infantry before the captors started to souvenir him.

I have not found the illustration in my "War Illustrated" I fear.

The caption post-dates his VC Gazetting, as it is verbatim from that, with topping and tailing.

Yes, that was, as I said earlier, going to be my starting point too. Unfortunately, I sadly allowed my focus to be dragged elsewhere. I can only apologise for that. Given the immediate capture being a battlefield on open ground I believe that it might have been his next port of call from leaving the battlefield. That is going to be difficult to pin point because of his separation from the KOYLI. It might be worth investigating what happened to the Connaught Rangers after capture if he ended up coming in with Capt. Roche, Lt. Hardy (Connaught) and of course there was Lt. Budden (Middlesex Regt). It's as good a starting point as any I imagine?

[Guest]

Yes, I believe I said that earlier. Yate I referred to as 'out of control', was taken from the battlefield in a car. Also referring to way back, the capturing unit were 72 IR (according to what Yate told Breen). Mons too might not be totally out of the question by car. It seems that Padre O'Rorke was captured at Landrecies and they seemed to have a similar experience to the KOYLI, kept at Landrecies for a few days but then they were marched to Mons. Practice seems to have differed regarding who did what. The Germans, it seems were not consistent. O'Rorke and his unit, possibly because they were mainly RAMC, had their knives taken away but got to keep all the other stuff which they found such a burden to carry through Torgau when they eventually got there.

Where ever he was, he managed to get a letter to his wife in Switzerland which he dated 2nd September. In comparison, I believe it was October when they were even allowed to send a postcard from Torgau. He mentions them having seen their deaths in the newspapers and commented as such as they were playing cards. If you read Bond's account of the days in Le Cateau, I believe he mentions the unit that was in the action pulled out to pursue the British Army.

Edit: typo

Apologies if I was repeating observations you have already made.I think there is a good chance they were processed separately possibly because Bond was allegedly wounded - as were a significant number of the POWs. They may well have separated the wounded from the non-wounded (just a thought). Note Wynne's letter and the context in which Bond quotes from it is implicitly describing an event (no of days at Le Cateau etc) that Bond did not witness as he refers Atkinson to the detail in Wynne's diary. I suspect Wynne and Bond were in separate groups. Yate as the senior non-wounded Officer and a fluent German speaker (and possibly ranting in fluent German) might well have stuck out from the crowd. Given his anger at the time it seems odd that he would be allowed to keep his equipment but I do concur with Grumpy that it has all the hallmarks of a man who has just come off the battlefield.

I am no expert on uniforms (or anything else) but for the purposes of this debate you might want to post the photo in the uniforms section. People such as GWF member FROGMSLE (and others) have a forensic knowledge of kit and may well have an very informed view.

There was also the mention of another POW (Officer) from an Irish Regt. You might want to consider tracking down his POW report as it might provide other clues. There were some other German speaking British officer POWs who may have been bundled with Yate.

Apologies if this has already been flagged. MG

[trajan]

Ok so any chance of Bavarians in Cambrai or Mons at that time?? I was working on this before I saw Martin's first post earlier and I have to say I was struggling to put any in Cambrai but I didn't get as far as looking at Mons.

Not that I can discover... The German First Army was all 'German'. I think the IV was next door, also all-'German'... Further south though we have the 6th and 7th Army which, as SS pointed out, are essentially Bavarian but they are down Alsace way. I'll try and see how far north they operated in August 1914, which might take a few days (but more fun than revising on Byzantine frescoes!), although accepting that these men are 2nd or 3rd line soldiers (out-dated pouches, rifles and bayonet), and so probably Landwehr, there are quite a few possibilities to choose from amongst those listed below... But this is very much a side issue at the moment - I think you have shown enough to demonstrably indicate that the infamous photograph was not taken at Torgua.

So, what about the evidence of the guards uniform and weaponry? I understand and quite agree with any doubts about the possibility of identifying a unit from a soldier's clothing and his weaponry. However, the colour of the uniform tunic aside - dark blue for all except Prussia, Bavaria and light blue for Bavaria (and possibly a 'Train' unit) - the lower cockade on the field hat was specifically intended to indicate the 'national' origin of the unit that a soldier belonged to. The cockades on the guards are not Prussian, which had a dark centre, as did several others, while the Bavarian cockade had a light blue ring around the centre, which (as with certain others) would appear as an entirely light coloured cockade in a B+W photograph, as with the one we are concerned with.

Aside from Reserve units, the 6th Army included the 1st Bavarian Landwehr Division:

13th Bavarian Landwehr Brigade:

1/,2/,3/8th Bavarian Landwehr Regiment

1/,2/,3/10th Bavarian Landwehr Regiment

14th Bavarian Landwehr Brigade:

1/,2/,3/15th Bavarian Landwehr Regiment

1/,2/,3/122nd Landwehr Regiment

The 7th Army had (again apart from reserve units):

1st Bavarian Landwehr Division:

13th Bavarian Landwehr Brigade:

1/,2/,3/8th Bavarian Landwehr Regiment

1/,2/,3/10th Bavarian Landwehr Regiment

14th Bavarian Landwehr Brigade:

1/,2/,3/15th Bavarian Landwehr Regiment

1/,2/,3/122nd Landwehr Regiment

84th Landwehr Brigade

5th Bavarian Landwehr Brigade

4th Bavarian Landwehr Regiment

5th Bavarian Landwehr Regiment

Trajan

PS: three replies came in while writing this - now to those and then, to quote Pepys - 'so the bed'! It's late here and a 0530 start.

PS: I'll try and trawl the German paper link tomorrow - but might have to wait until Wednesday when technically I have a free day!

EDIT: strike out that 'Prussia' above - should be 'Bavaria'!

[seaforths]

Apologies if I was repeating observations you have already made.I think there is a good chance they were processed separately possibly because Bond was allegedly wounded - as were a significant number of the POWs. They may well have separated the wounded from the non-wounded (just a thought). Note Wynne's letter and the context in which Bond quotes from it is implicitly describing an event (no of days at Le Cateau etc) that Bond did not witness as he refers Atkinson to the detail in Wynne's diary. I suspect Wynne and Bond were in separate groups. Yate as the senior non-wounded Officer and a fluent German speaker (and possibly ranting in fluent German) might well have stuck out from the crowd. Given his anger at the time it seems odd that he would be allowed to keep his equipment but I do concur with Grumpy that it has all the hallmarks of a man who has just come off the battlefield.

I am no expert on uniforms (or anything else) but for the purposes of this debate you might want to post the photo in the uniforms section. People such as GWF member FROGMSLE (and others) have a forensic knowledge of kit and may well have an very informed view.

There was also the mention of another POW (Officer) from an Irish Regt. You might want to consider tracking down his POW report as it might provide other clues. There were some other German speaking British officer POWs who may have been bundled with Yate.

Apologies if this has already been flagged. MG

I'm not tying him into Bond's book (which I see you have too - don't mention it by the way ) too tightly other than to highlight some valid points he makes from it ie the movements of the Germans was very fluid and they were moving forward pretty quickly, others taking their place etc. Point taken on German speaking officers betraying themselves as fluent. I believe I had addressed that too several posts ago (Young Duke of York) and I think our earlier posts have crossed re the other officers with him...

[Guest]

Apologies. Major thanks to Seaforth for sending me Bond's account and by extension (I think) to the other Seaforths. I am very grateful. I thought I had thanked publicly but its seems not. My apologies. Thank you. MG

[seaforth78]

Hi Martin and Seaforths,

My pleasure Martin and I am glad that my copy of Bond's book seems to have redirected this thread back to it belonged. I am struggling to keep up with the huge amount of pertinent information coming out and I only wish I had this stuff when my essay went out to the publishers a month ago. A HUGE thanks to Seaforths, who has herocally poured heart and soul into this thread, I can only sit back, read and learn.

[seaforths]

Apologies. Major thanks to Seaforth for sending me Bond's account and by extension (I think) to the other Seaforths. I am very grateful. I thought I had thanked publicly but its seems not. My apologies. Thank you. MG

Hi Martin and Seaforths,

My pleasure Martin and I am glad that my copy of Bond's book seems to have redirected this thread back to it belonged. I am struggling to keep up with the huge amount of pertinent information coming out and I only wish I had this stuff when my essay went out to the publishers a month ago. A HUGE thanks to Seaforths, who has herocally poured heart and soul into this thread, I can only sit back, read and learn.

You're welcome - sorry, I'm dipping in and out of here and going through German papers like no tomorrow. I've just finished one (got a cracking photo of Highlanders as POWs - I know not what we're looking for...) and moving onto my next one now. I found an image on Dum dum bullets and thought ah...but sadly no. I will keep plugging away, that photo has to be somewhere there are too many other press sources quoting it!

[shippingsteel]

Has anyone yet considered the possibility that Yate DID have his posessions and battlefield kit removed from him when he was captured, as he was behaving so 'out of control'.?

And then at the time the photo was taken, been offered them back for no apparent reason (I think he looks puzzled). Note the case is under his arm, not strapped over his shoulder.

And what possible reason is there for having his binoculars out upon his capture, especially given the first hand accounts of his desperation to be shot. But the items do add realism.

If a photo was wanted by the Germans for some unknown reason, I think there was plenty of motivation for them to make it appear as realistic as possible (ie. straight from the field)

Cheers, S>S

[seaforth78]

No

[seaforth78]

Major Yate, würden Sie bitte hier Schritt in die Umkleidekabine zu entkleiden und freundlich zu ersetzen Ihrem Kit, so dass wir ein Gruppenfoto von Ihnen Schadenfreude über Ihre Aufnahme bitte?

[seaforths]

Major Yate, würden Sie bitte hier Schritt in die Umkleidekabine zu entkleiden und freundlich zu ersetzen Ihrem Kit, so dass wir ein Gruppenfoto von Ihnen Schadenfreude über Ihre Aufnahme bitte?

Gimme a break - show off! I'm find it hard enough going through the pictures because I don't sprakanzie deutch!

I'm using PFFs post of 29 November as a marker so checking between battle date and then...just a suggestion if you feel like piling into the newspaper trawl

Come on SS get your head back into the newspapers (my fault, I know, I mentioned the uniforms again). One of us has got to come up with something somewhere.

[seaforth78]

i'm digging into the German archives now to nail down which and what German periodical the photo first appeared in.

Forgive my poor German!

[shippingsteel]

Adding here for reference the mention in the Richmond Times that member PFF earlier found so brilliantly. Much appreciation for that effort.!

I note that the date is clearly shown and also that it came through a London office.? Also mentions a German government circular, dated Sept.22.?

Cheers, S>S

[seaforth78]

If I am correct in understanding your query SS, are saying that the photo originated with a British photographer at Le Cateau, then sent on to the Reuters office in Berlin to be published in places like deepest Slovenia and Timbuktoo?