Capture of Major Yate

[trajan]

Liz, Seaforths, there is certainly something rather mysterious here ("Oh no, not again!" ), and I wonder ...

Ahh yes, very confusing and so not just me. I went to the page where you said 'that picture' appears on page 358 but I just have a list on that page and the list continues on the subsequent pages to the end of the book. To confusing things even more, there is no date for these pages nor does it indicate they were released in separate dated issues. It starts at Volume 1 and the last book is Volume 10 and so the pages and volumes I quoted correspond to that. These seem to be bound volumes, unlike the ones you have access to and I wonder if they produced these 10 bound volumes later and edited and messed around with the content. In doing that it could be that they have omitted 'that picture' but if they have shown it - it would be great to see a scan of it with a different caption.

This kind of 'copy+paste' might explain the problem in the edition Seaforths is using, in which edition and its photograph 'with the enemy' caption they don't seem to know (in the caption) that Yate was long dead ("Happily now dead...")... OR, but I think less likely, are they trying to cover up the fact of the suicide? Then (as now) frowned upon in 'decent society'...

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Yes, thank Liz! This is an all-hands to the search operation, and so all and any help greatly appreciated!

I take it that by the Campbell picture you mean the officer carrying the wounded German back to the trench - OFFTopic, I know, but any idea who he is supposed to be? I may have missed it as I only gave the non-Yate stuff a cursory glance...

Trajan

EDIT PS: Thanks for that Bridgeman link, Liz - which led me via the search engine to:

IMAGE number: STC412053

Title: Major C.A.L. Yate leading the nineteen survivors of his company in a charge at the Battle of Le Cateau (litho), Creator Bagdatopoulos, William Spencer (1888-1965)

That's a very interesting discovery - I didn't notice that one!

I will scan that image and if necessary transcribe the caption later, in view of the discrepancies between the bound edition I am referring to and the online ones posted by Seaforths. I think it's a deliberately unidentified officer perhaps for the reason I suggested above, but someone may be able to suggest an identification. It wasn't Yate's feat of VC-earning valour, obviously.

Liz

Edited 9 July , 2014 by Liz in Eastbourne

[Liz in Eastbourne]

This is the picture, but as it takes up a whole page of a nearly-A4-size thick book, the curve in the middle makes the page number and caption illegible, so I'll transcribe them below.

.

Page 358

If one were asked to name the bravest deed of the war, the answer might be the act of bravery here depicted. The heroism that can rise to the height of giving one’s own life to save that of an enemy under fire reaches a pitch of moral courage higher than the rush of a bayonet charge or the assault upon an enemy position. Some Germans attacked a British trench, and were repulsed with many dead. They had to retire, and took with them all their wounded except one, whom they overlooked. A comrade came into the open to rescue him, but fell dead, pierced by a score of British bullets. The Bristish officer gave the order “Cease fire. ”

Then he himself advanced to the rescue of the wounded German, but was struck by several German bullets. Then the German officer saw his purpose, when he in turn gave the order “Cease fire.” The British officer was able to reach the object of his effort. He lifted him, and carried him to the German trenches, where he saluted and handed him to his friends.

The German officer saluted, sprang from the trench, took off his own Iron Cross and pinned it on his brave enemy. Then the British officer gained his own lines, wounded to death, which took place before he could receive his Victoria Cross for which he was recommended.

[seaforths]

I can't remember off the top of my head by I will try to check - I'm pretty sure it is another officer (but not KOYLI) with another heavy dose of trench-lore...

[Liz in Eastbourne]

I've now found an earlier mention of Yate in The War Illustrated issue of 12th September 1914, when he was first reported killed in action.

[Liz in Eastbourne]

Then came this report in the issue of 5th December:

Caption reads:

Major C.A.L. Yate (deceased), King’s Own Yorkshire Light Infantry.

At Le Cateau, on August 26^th, when all other officers were killed or wounded, and ammunition exhausted, Major Yate led his nineteen survivors in a charge in which he was severely wounded. He was picked up by the enemy, and died as a prisoner.

[Liz in Eastbourne]

I can't remember off the top of my head by I will try to check - I'm pretty sure it is another officer (but not KOYLI) with another heavy dose of trench-lore...

Yes, I realise now that when you whooped at finding the picture it wasn't because you thought it was Yate but because of the page it was on - I am afraid my knowledge of this quest is very shallow, not having read the earlier thread, so I'll duck out now unless I happen to find something else specific in the ancient War Illustrated books. The issues are bound into volumes, but they are clearly the war as it happened (EDIT or as it was reported at the time, even if that wasn't what happened!) and not with hindsight so may be useful compared with the later versions.

Good luck,

Liz

[trajan]

Yes, I realise now that when you whooped at finding the picture it wasn't because you thought it was Yate but because of the page it was on - I am afraid my knowledge of this quest is very shallow, not having read the earlier thread, so I'll duck out now unless I happen to find something else specific in the ancient War Illustrated books...

Liz, the quest for the details of the Yate capture is indeed a very involved one ​ , but as one of those following Seaforth's work, I can assure you that every extra little detail adds to the pot! There are discrepancies piled on discrepancies in following exactly what is said to have happened during his capture and immediately after, but the more input the clearer the picture will eventually appear . Talk about the fog of war!

But one of the keys to a part of the mystery is in identifying (A), where the "Major Yate in the hands of the enemy" picture was FIRST published (I suspect probably in a German or other Continental newspaper); and , where it was published in the days immediately before the VC was gazetted (it is referenced in newspapers around that time). It could be, of course that (A) and are identical...

So, in short, any discoveries help, as with your 5 December 1914 piece, reporting that Yate died as a prisoner ... So why is the 1915 War Illustrated picture captioned (IIRC) 'Happily he did not die of his wounds as first reported"...

Julian

[Indefatigable]

Following on from Liz's and Marjorie's identification of pictures of Major Yate in "The War Illustrated" I have found that the University of Toronto Library has the 10 volumes of the deluxe version downloadable as an individual pdf version for each volume.

regards

Indefatigable

Edited 11 July , 2014 by Indefatigable

[Indefatigable]

Further to my post #198 I have also found that the same library also has individual volumes (as downloadable pdf's) of 22 Volume (18 only) The Times History of the War. Volume 10 contains 4 mentions of Yate pages 10-11, 27 and 40. Pages 10-11 give a description of how he "won" his VC, page 27 has his picture and page 40 is a mention in a listing of VC recipients.

regards

Indefatigable

Edited: to show number of volumes available

Edited 11 July , 2014 by Indefatigable

[trajan]

Following on from Liz's and Marjorie's identification of pictures of Major Yate in "The War Illustrated" I have found that the University of Toronto Library has the 10 volumes of the deluxe version downloadable as an individual pdf version for each volume.

Thanks for the information! And as luck would have it, one of my colleagues for an archaeological project I am involved with is at the U.of T.!

Trajan

[seaforths]

Sorry guys anything over the last few days has been minimal because I've pulled a back muscle. I got the deluxe album from archive.org as per my post but the original source probably traces back to Toronto. Interesting to see the changes they made to the original that Liz has access to because it shows that some care needs to be taken regarding the dates of publications. If for example as has happened here, something has been published twice there could be some differences between the two and both would need to be checked.

[trajan]

Poor you! One minute voles, then back muscles! Gechmish olsun!

As for the tome, I'll double check with my U.ofT. mate if necessary, though... Once he has finished translating a Russian monograph we both need for our project he should be game for anything!

BTW, I did a solid search of the Sydney weekly rag for August 1914-February 1915, but nowt on there except for the standard notification of Yate's VC just after it was gazetted.

Trajan

[seaforths]

I had downloaded all ten voles - sorry volumes a while back from archives.org and it is searchable, unlike the the magazine in which I found the illusive photo of him on ancestry. There are missing pages in that one I am still trying to locate with an earlier article about him. Unfortunately, it involves a page by page search to see if they have plonked the missing pages in another volume...still ongoing with that one I'm afraid.

There was a New Zealand newspaper archive too which I checked a little while back but that just gave the VC award too.

[seaforths]

Trajan & Liz, I will return to the VC issue in due course. Apologies Trajan for my tardiness in responses to email. I am still plodding away with Ancestry and the back is much better now too. I managed to get through a few more Ancestry pages last night than I've been able to previous evenings but nothing found as yet.

However, I am also still plodding through the many books (including one you mentioned Trajan). It's nice to be in them again - with some it's a bit like visiting old friends! Here is a snippet from 'The Prisoners 1914-18' by Robert Jackson:

'One of these early prisoners was Corporal John Brady of the King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry, who was wounded, although not seriously, and captured at Le Cateau at 5.30pm on 26 August. Together with other prisoners, he was penned into a church, his wounds untended until the following morning. Afterwards, the prisoners were marched to the rear and spent their second night of captivity in another church; in the morning they received their first food, a small issue of black bread. Marching on to Mons, they were issued with a loaf of bread between ten men that evening; the meagre ration worked out at one slice per man. The next morning they received six potatoes per man, which they roasted in small fires which their captors allowed them to build; they were also given some boiled potatoes by sympathetic French prisoners. It was to be their last food for two days and nights; they were crammed into a train at Hal, eighteen men in compartments designed to seat eight, and set off into Germany, destination unknown...'

What an interesting account. Especially as it came from a KOYLI who, it seems, was not kept in the area for around 5 days and then marched to Cambrai with Lt. Col. Bond and some of the other officers and men.

[ss002d6252]

Not sure if we have this one or not ...

Yorkshire Evening Post - Monday 04 August 1919

Craig

[trajan]

... the back is much better now too. I managed to get through a few more Ancestry pages last night than I've been able to previous evenings but nothing found as yet.

'One of these early prisoners was Corporal John Brady of the King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry... they were crammed into a train at Hal, eighteen men in compartments designed to seat eight, and set off into Germany, destination unknown...'

What an interesting account. Especially as it came from a KOYLI who, it seems, was not kept in the area for around 5 days and then marched to Cambrai with Lt. Col. Bond and some of the other officers and men.

Great to hear about the back and to have you back! And an interesting piece there.

Not sure if we have this one or not ...

Yorkshire Evening Post - Monday 04 August 1919

Capture.JPG

Craig

Well, an eye opener for me! Thanks Craig. Wonder who sent the cheque?

My apologies for absences - free-time has been spent on bayonet matters... BUT, summer school soon comes to an end, and then its Ramadan holiday and then blessed August - well, not so blessed with the thermometer climbing the way it is (39 deg. today - in the shade...)

[ss002d6252]

Sheffield Evening Telegraph - Saturday 28 November 1914

Craig

[ss002d6252]

Great to hear about the back and to have you back! And an interesting piece there.

Well, an eye opener for me! Thanks Craig. Wonder who sent the cheque?

My apologies for absences - free-time has been spent on bayonet matters... BUT, summer school soon comes to an end, and then its Ramadan holiday and then blessed August - well, not so blessed with the thermometer climbing the way it is (39 deg. today - in the shade...)

It does raise some questions - Did he try and cash it himself or did someone else try ?. Which bank was it cashed at ?

Craig

[ss002d6252]

Great to hear about the back and to have you back! And an interesting piece there.

Well, an eye opener for me! Thanks Craig. Wonder who sent the cheque?

My apologies for absences - free-time has been spent on bayonet matters... BUT, summer school soon comes to an end, and then its Ramadan holiday and then blessed August - well, not so blessed with the thermometer climbing the way it is (39 deg. today - in the shade...)

It was a cheque on Col Bond's Cox account which was cleverly signed by all of the officers (Although he's not named this is presumably the cheque although it's not clear if signed the cheque or if the cheque alerted the authorities as to the survival of the some of the officers and there were further investigations).

Evening Despatch - Monday 16 December 1918

Birmingham Daily Post - Friday 09 October 1914

Craig

[seaforths]

Wow! some good finds there! By the way if in doubt, have a look at the Word Doc I posted to check for previous articles. I will add your little haul to the tally and repost it this evening.

The cheques were via Cox & Co. but Major Yate, I am sure, was dead by the time they did that (posted on it here and/or old thread). The camp Commandant at Torgau invited the officer prisoners who had been treated by the German Red Cross to make a donation. Most of the officers wanted to tell the Commandant where to shove his donation as their ?treatment? from the German Red Cross had been so appalling. However, one bright spark pointed out that if they all wrote donations by cheque then a single cheque issued by the camp committee with all their names etc. would be sent to UK. Thus alerting the bank at home that they were not dead. Needless to say, the donations were high despite their feelings.

Thinking of Brady's account I posted earlier, his treatment being held in a church etc. The route from Le Cateau to Mons and being entrained at Halle seem to be similar to the experiences of Ivan Hay and others but that, I think, is the first time I've seen a KOYLI going that route.

[ss002d6252]

I'm sure more will come to light from the regular updates that are being made to the BNA.

Craig

[seaforths]

I'm sure more will come to light from the regular updates that are being made to the BNA.

Craig

Nice work on the articles earlier and I think you are quite right too, there are probably more that have yet to appear via BNA. A couple of newspapers that might have 'adopted' him might be a Yorkshire paper which I will try to look into further. I read a report of him being carried shoulder high from the station on his return as a Boer War hero (just need to find that item again and the Yorkshire location)Then there is Madeley, Shropshire area where his father was a minister who seem to have 'adtopted' him and there are articles published based in Madeley here: http://www.madeleylocalhistory.org/people/yate-major.html and here: http://madeleytowncouncil.gov.uk/useruploads/files/people-yate%20(Page%206.3).pdf if the BNA has newspapers from these areas that are not included yet, they might provide rich pickings in terms of information if they do materialise on the BNA site.

Putting them together coherently is another matter as it seems that information emerged in some papers earlier than others and not just here but overseas too. I would never have expected to find Ivan Hay's account of his capture and movements hosted on a New Zealand newspaper website.

I will try to update the Word Docs tonight or tomorrow morning and there is other information in the book I am skim reading again from Brady the KOYLI man that I want to check out tonight.

[ss002d6252]

I wonder if there's anything useful here - http://www.prisonersofwar1914-1918documents.com/downloads---section-1.php

Craig

[seaforths]

I've checked them out in the past and would be very wary of making any purchases from them. All the stuff I've looked at is available either in the public domain via the internet or via TNA. I think they are playing on the naivety of those who wouldn't know where to look to find the stuff for free.