Capture of Major Yate

[Indefatigable]

Seaforths

I see from your flurry of posts in the last 24hrs I have been requested to complete a task. I will endeavour to do something a soon as I can. Looking at some of the maps in my guides I see that the scale of measurements includes English Miles, Kilometres and Swiss Leagues which as far as I can determine was a distance you could walk in 1 hour (probably about 3 miles but could be a lot less on mountainous terrain).

I can reveal some results of a previous research in that the railway line from Chur to Arosa was not completed until late in 1914 as it was not opened until 12th December 1914. It consisted of a single line with passing points usually at stations and was about 16 miles (26 kms) in length. Rising almost from the start from about 1,950 feet (at Chur) rising to about 5,900 feet (Arosa). On the route about 18 tunnels and about 40 bridges (which included at least 3 viaducts) had to be built due to the geological conditions, in fact one viaduct took nearly a year to construct and went straight into a tunnel at each end. On opening the train journey took about 80 to 85 minutes. Arosa at that time was known as a very quiet spot and was ideally suited for the treatment of TB sufferers.

It also seems that from Chur it was possible to get to Zurich by train (journey time between 3 to 5 hours depending on type of train) and from Zurich you could travel by train to Rorschach (a busy town on lake Constance, journey time about 2 to 4 hours, again depending on type of train) where a steamer could be boarded to Lindau (a German town on the Lake, journey time about 1 hour) which was also the terminus of the Bavarian S. W. Railway. From there it was possible to get a express train to Munich. (journey time between 5 and 6 hours).

Regards

Indefatigable

[seaforth78]

Trajan, Seaforths!

I am finally back from my enforced absence and finally took my law exams and can breathe.....I haven't been on here for over a month but see delightfully that both of you have done some splendid work while I was away as usual. Now I have 2 months worth of reading to look forward to!

Thank you all!

S78

[trajan]

Welcome back laddie! Hope the exams went ok! Yes, there is a lot to catch up on, and Seaforths has been doing some sterling work collecting information and is now doing some sorting before she takes a holiday away from dead white men or whatever... The original place and date of the infamous photograph remains elusive, but thanks to Seaforths we now where the oft-repeated copy was published... So, still lots to be cleared up!

Trajan

[seaforth78]

Thanks!

[seaforths]

Trajan, Seaforths!

I am finally back from my enforced absence and finally took my law exams and can breathe.....I haven't been on here for over a month but see delightfully that both of you have done some splendid work while I was away as usual. Now I have 2 months worth of reading to look forward to!

Thank you all!

S78

Hello stranger and welcome back! Hope all that swotting pays off too!

Yes some very hard work put in by lots of folks; Phil, Craig & Indefatigable. Especially on the newspapers, postcards & Bavarian records of which I still have some left to complete. My next job is to write up his VC and put that to bed but it is very interesting. I just need some uninterrupted quality time to pull it all together from 4 books and 2 TNA files. However every time I set myself that task to do, something comes along and flings me off course or distracts me. The release of CWGC and ICRC records to name but a couple of things. My pidgin German is coming on a treat too.

I'm awa' at the end of the week and will be in the Hielans for a fortnight but if nobody gets around to it, I'll start having a nosey for those Swiss newspapers I posted about when I get back. I note another 2am turn in and I'm working tomorrow - oh dear!

[Guest]

Picture of Yate here in the ILN. I have never seen this image before. Just FYI.

[ss002d6252]

Picture of Yate here in the ILN. I have never seen this image before. Just FYI.

Funnily enough I was literally just looking at the same picture.

Craig

[seaforths]

That's just sent me scurrying back to post no.157. I'm away at the moment and don't have my books with me but I had thought there was mention of Holmes and possibly Yate being mentioned in the London Magazine in 1915. However, I see this is ILN which is a different publication and a different images. Still haven't tracked down the London Magazine.

I notice from the ILN date, the caption is very brief and shows him correctly as deceased at that time. I don't think I've seen that image before either. He looks very young.

[Indefatigable]

The Times History of the War uses just his head from the same picture. I can't remember what Volume it came from but it was on page 27. Well that it what my printed version shows.

regards

Indefatigable

PS

I am still working on sorting out some suitable maps of Arosa and its environs. other information I can reveal so far is that it appears that there were about 200,000 - 220,000 Germans living in Switzerland at the outbreak of WWI with most of them living either in Basle or Zurich. Also those Cantons that were predominately either French or German speaking sided with that particular country. Also most Cantons of Switzerland only allowed cars to be driven on the roads only on Sundays and the Canton that Arosa is in banned them altogether until 1928!

Indefatigable

[seaforth78]

Thanks for this Martin G. I think I saw this photo of him at the Japanese Self Defense Agency's Archives in Tokyo back in 2007. This was (I think) taken when Yate was attached to the Japanese Army in 1904 when he was a langauge officer during the Anglo-Japanese Allliance (1902-1921) hence his youthful look. I'll have another look again.

[trajan]

Picture of Yate here in the ILN. I have never seen this image before. Just FYI.

New one for me also! Never seen him in civvies before - looks quite the 'distinguished army officer', the 'retired colonel in Mary St. Mead' type!

[trajan]

Not, not a major development, but just to note that GWF member JWK on this thread: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=223048&page=2#entry2211614 posted a link to a universal search web for Dutch newspapers - it is at: www.delpher.nl

I tried 'Majoor Yate' on its search engine and 20 or so hits came up, not all relevant to our Yate (and certainly not the elusive photograph...), and as far as I can see after a look at the dates, those that are relevant to our Yate are concerned with his escape and suicide. Even so, it is interesting to see what impact these events had at the time - making them worthy of reports in Dutch newspapers.

Trajan

[seaforths]

Not, not a major development, but just to note that GWF member JWK on this thread: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=223048&page=2#entry2211614 posted a link to a universal search web for Dutch newspapers - it is at: www.delpher.nl

I tried 'Majoor Yate' on its search engine and 20 or so hits came up, not all relevant to our Yate (and certainly not the elusive photograph...), and as far as I can see after a look at the dates, those that are relevant to our Yate are concerned with his escape and suicide. Even so, it is interesting to see what impact these events had at the time - making them worthy of reports in Dutch newspapers.

Trajan

Ahh you are still looking too! I am still poking around at a more leisurely pace. Over Christmas, I went through some photographs of Cambrai during the German occupation and before it was massively destroyed later. I found a decent one of the railway station and the cobbles are of a good match but the arches are not. Even though the Germans had put signage across the top of the arches, the original shape of them is still visible and it wasn't a good match. The Grand Place looks quite promising (a photograph of a German parade there). The photograph is taken at some distance and the ground detail is out of focus. The buildings around are light coloured masonry or painted in a light colour. I haven't had chance to scan it and zoom around it yet. I am looking at it through a magnifying glass. I haven't managed to find any similar images for Mons.

I also wondered when Breen acquired his information from the German officer regarding the capture and disarming of Major Yate, whether it was post war or during the war. It seems likely that it was shortly after their internment at Torgau. I know I've put a snippet on this elsewhere but they were being visited by a German officer of IR79 who was injured in the battle and recuperating from his wounds in Torgau town. It seems he liked to visit the camp and discuss tactics with the British officers who were captured in the battle and tell them where they went wrong. I'll be that brightened up their day no end!

I do think that because of the input and references of Charles Yate MP, the photograph either appeared first in a German newspaper or a German language newspaper (possibly Swiss) and that is what Mrs Yate had seen. I also got to thinking that the image might not be cropped down to exclude other prisoners. On the contrary, I think they would have wanted to display all of their prisoner trophies had they had them. It may have been cropped down to focus on him as the subject and to exclude the irrelevant.

[seaforths]

Not, not a major development, but just to note that GWF member JWK on this thread: http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=223048&page=2#entry2211614 posted a link to a universal search web for Dutch newspapers - it is at: www.delpher.nl

I tried 'Majoor Yate' on its search engine and 20 or so hits came up, not all relevant to our Yate (and certainly not the elusive photograph...), and as far as I can see after a look at the dates, those that are relevant to our Yate are concerned with his escape and suicide. Even so, it is interesting to see what impact these events had at the time - making them worthy of reports in Dutch newspapers.

Trajan

I also found this site which would be very useful for German and Swiss newspapers in the German language but it seems it's not free to search. I wonder if they do free trials occasionally:

http://www.historische-zeitungen-bestellen.de/historische-zeitungen-zeitschriften-vom-20.09.1914#navi_top

[seaforth78]

Seaforths,

I've always wondered why Yate merited such special consideration? I wonder if the Germans from the start had him marked? After all his CO, Bond was captured and was a battalion commander where Yate was just a Coy commander......Maybe something to do with his German antecendents? His ability to speak German fluently?

About Breen, I think that is quite likely that he must have heard from the German Commander as Bond being the senior officer in the camp and Yate's CO would have to been summoned to the German Commander's office.

Very interesting. But as much as I like my subject, he did not deserve that Cross!

[trajan]

I've always wondered why Yate merited such special consideration? I wonder if the Germans from the start had him marked? After all his CO, Bond was captured and was a battalion commander where Yate was just a Coy commander......Maybe something to do with his German antecendents? His ability to speak German fluently?

About Breen, I think that is quite likely that he must have heard from the German Commander as Bond being the senior officer in the camp and Yate's CO would have to been summoned to the German Commander's office.

Very interesting. But as much as I like my subject, he did not deserve that Cross!

Hi Seaforth78, and welcome back after a long absence!

Seaforths will correct me, I am sure, but I think one other thing that had him 'marked out' for special treatment soon after was capture was his service as an observer in Japan and also watching the German army at play pre-1914 (wasn't it machine guns?). I can imagine that German Intelligence was well aware of who he was very soon after he was captured and would have welcomed a de-briefing on his observations in Japan and Germany - and what information he may have passed back to England on the ability, etc., of the German army pre-WW1.

[Guest]

Apologies if this has already been covered in your massive research;....Immediately after the declaration of War Maj Yate was sent to the War Office for a Staff Appointment (7th Aug 1914) only to rejoin the battalion 2 days later. The 2nd Bn were not particularly short of officers, or indeed Majors. I always thought it rather odd that he spent just 2 days at the War Office. MG

Source: 2nd Bn KOYLI war diary.

[seaforth78]

Hi Seaforth78, and welcome back after a long absence!

Seaforths will correct me, I am sure, but I think one other thing that had him 'marked out' for special treatment soon after was capture was his service as an observer in Japan and also watching the German army at play pre-1914 (wasn't it machine guns?). I can imagine that German Intelligence was well aware of who he was very soon after he was captured and would have welcomed a de-briefing on his observations in Japan and Germany - and what information he may have passed back to England on the ability, etc., of the German army pre-WW1.

Thank you very my dear Trajan; I much regret at being 'away' but now am back with a relish! I am glad to see that Yate is still not dead and alive and well. I still marvel at what I thought would end in a few posts to see it grow into a wonderful Frankenstein's monster which I greatly benefited from in which you and Seaforths along with Martin G, Shipping Steel, and others have magnificiently added to. I was drawn to Yate because of his Japanese connection as one of the very first Japanese Language officers sent by Britain during the Anglo-Japanese Alliance of 1902-1921. His mastery of foreign languages like German (he was half German as well) along with his pre-war visits to Germany made him a target alright. I conjecture what kind of threat was uttered to him on that night that he felt compelled to escape? Morever, to commit suicide (and I find the German testimony quite honest) very interesting. Indeed, when I arrive in Tokyo shortly, I'll go and visit the Japanese Defence Agency's Archives and look up Yate's time in Japan and Manuchuria and see what the Japanese had on him. Even though the Japanese were allies of the British during the Great War, the Japanese Army was very pro-German and probably passed on intelligence to the Germans on Yate quite possibly. I don't know but just my guess. The Japanese were not impressed with the British in 1914 in Tingqao and much preferred socialising with their German prisoners after the campaign.

[seaforth78]

Apologies if this has already been covered in your massive research;....Immediately after the declaration of War Maj Yate was sent to the War Office for a Staff Appointment (7th Aug 1914) only to rejoin the battalion 2 days later. The 2nd Bn were not particularly short of officers, or indeed Majors. I always thought it rather odd that he spent just 2 days at the War Office. MG

Source: 2nd Bn KOYLI war diary.

I think this episode may have contributed to the great tension between Yate and Bond, though publicly as Regimental officer the latter supported Yate, Bond greatly disliked him and made no omission of this in post war correspondence. But why he helped to recommend Yate for the VC (see his official history for the KOYLI for the very different account of Yate's capture as from the LG gazette VC citation) is very strange. Seaforths has a lot on this episode which I have not been able to see.

[seaforths]

My internet connection was like the grand old Duke of York last night. I read the posts and thought I'd contribute but broadband had other ideas.

Hi Seaforth78, and welcome back after a long absence!

Seaforths will correct me, I am sure, but I think one other thing that had him 'marked out' for special treatment soon after was capture was his service as an observer in Japan and also watching the German army at play pre-1914 (wasn't it machine guns?). I can imagine that German Intelligence was well aware of who he was very soon after he was captured and would have welcomed a de-briefing on his observations in Japan and Germany - and what information he may have passed back to England on the ability, etc., of the German army pre-WW1.

Yes, welcome back S78! EDIT: AND MANY HAPPIES! - Just noticed.

Trajan, I stumbled across the POW report of another Major captured in 1914 that made me wonder how Major Yate was treated. Amongst the numerous complaints this other Major made, was a complaint that he was struck across the face and was spat at, in the face. I'll have to go re-read it but I believe the German response was that; he brought the treatment upon himself, as they alleged he had made a comment to the Germans, that he would sooner spit in their faces than give them any information. His remark, was apparently totally unacceptable and ungentlemanly! That Major Yate seemed to be terrified of another encounter with the men from Berlin is quite clear from Breen's account. I get the impression he feared being shot as a spy because of his pre-war activity. How would that fit in with his Japanese views of honour? Was being executed by the enemy as a spy just as bad as being captured alive?

Apologies if this has already been covered in your massive research;....Immediately after the declaration of War Maj Yate was sent to the War Office for a Staff Appointment (7th Aug 1914) only to rejoin the battalion 2 days later. The 2nd Bn were not particularly short of officers, or indeed Majors. I always thought it rather odd that he spent just 2 days at the War Office. MG

Source: 2nd Bn KOYLI war diary.

Yes, I saw that and thought it was a bit puzzling. In trying to reconcile that information, I wondered about the experience of the existing officers - junior officers that had seen little or no action etc. I came to a couple of conclusions. His pre-war work in Germany was likely to have been already documented. Therefore, his knowledge might have more significance on the ground and at the front. The man seems to have sought out action where he could find it and I suspect he knew he was not cut out for the role of a shiny at the War Office, if there was an opportunity to be involved in action/fighting elsewhere. He could have convinced others he would be better utilised elsewhere (back to the regiment) or pulled strings to achieve his aim. He certainly had connections but then I also suspect that there was no shortage of officers, that despite their veneer showing outwardly otherwise, would sooner polish their backsides on the chairs of the War Office than be at the front.

I think this episode may have contributed to the great tension between Yate and Bond, though publicly as Regimental officer the latter supported Yate, Bond greatly disliked him and made no omission of this in post war correspondence. But why he helped to recommend Yate for the VC (see his official history for the KOYLI for the very different account of Yate's capture as from the LG gazette VC citation) is very strange. Seaforths has a lot on this episode which I have not been able to see.

The Bond/Yate relationship was a bit of a strange one. I initially went from thinking he disliked Major Yate, to thinking that perhaps he didn't. I think Martin has pointed out that Lt. Col. Bond was contradictory in other areas of his different accounts. I can't recall now but I thought he was delighted to receive Major Yate into the KOYLI...do I have that wrong? I think he was genuinely delighted to see Major Yate arrive at Torgau and happy that he had survived. Now he would be in a different environment and possibly not the loose canon he might have been perceived to have been to his superiors, on the battlefield.

The VC thing as far as Lt. Col. Bond and Major Yate are concerned was a runaway train chuffing along without their knowledge. The former had no input and wouldn't have been able to recommend him and the latter died without knowing he had been awarded it and why. I am sorry I haven't got this stuff up and posted but I will say this; his award and those of the time have to be viewed in that bubble of 1914 and you have to discard all of your knowledge of other actions that occurred later in the war that were not deemed worthy of such awards. That is not easy to do and I have read other War Diaries whereby bayonet charges were ordered, carried out and followed by fierce hand-to-hand fighting but this happened later in the war and they didn't get a VC. In reading the VC file, I can see that initially, it would seem they were keen to get heroes into the public eye in the face of mounting casualty reports, for a war that would be over by Christmas. I can also see they reach a point where they realise this is not going to be the case and start to apply the brakes. My initial disbelief that the award was given, was cross-infected by my own knowledge of later occurrences of awards/non-awards.

I'm still poking away in the background on him. I came across something last night from my own files but it was far too late to follow it up. I will try to tie up that loose end later today.

[seaforth78]

Hi Seaforths, and thank you heartily for your welcome!

I must've gotten it wrong going by memory as I thought that Bond disliked Yate, but even if the former had, could he could have prevented at such short notice had Yate posted to the 2nd Batt. displacing poor the former OC B Coy who was later captured with him.....

I have no right to ask you now, but if you could steer me in the right direction of where I could get his VC file I love to see this and all the comments associated with him.

I'm off to the Japanese Defense Archives today to view the Japanese Regiment's photo archives where Yate was attached in 1906.

[trajan]

One of the annoyances of some GWF threads is the way that people willy-nilly delete the information in their posts for one reason or another... I was trying to see if I could do more with the photograph that SS posted in the locked Yate I thread of the possible train battalion men at Liege (http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=210898&page=18 post 346) to see if I could get any further with it - and he has deleted it... And the link that Seaforths posted to the photograph (https://www.flickr.c...in/photostream/) no longer works... Anyone download a copy so that I can have a gander? Or anyone with Drake Goodman's address?

Trajan

[seaforths]

If I dig around I will probably have it. I know the one you mean. S78, likewise, I will try to do some digging around. Unfortunately, it's my working weekend. I'll see what I can get done this evening. From memory,the file shows who was recommended, which ones were challenged (which was most of them), those that subsequently went through and those denied. Although I copied it in the order it was in the file, it is very disjointed and you have to keep going back and forth between several lots of pages.

Edit: regarding evidence, it states in a lot of cases, refer to the War Diary but the relevant WD pages are not in the file.

[Indefatigable]

Is this the picture>

regards

indefatigable

[trajan]

Thanks but no - the one I want is the one showing a group of soldiers, including the chappie on the left, in their light-coloured but 'dunkelbalu' uniforms, while they were in Liege.

Trajan

PS: There's a prize around for anyone who can establish where and when that 'capture' photograph first appeared - a European newspaper almost certainly!