Capture of Major Yate

[ss002d6252]

I've checked them out in the past and would be very wary of making any purchases from them. All the stuff I've looked at is available either in the public domain via the internet or via TNA. I think they are playing on the naivety of those who wouldn't know where to look to find the stuff for free.

I had a feeling that may be the case but I've never seen the site before.

Craig

[seaforths]

I found the following on the Madeley Council article referring to his return from the Boer war:

'A contemporary account in the
Shropshire Star tells how the local miners
met Captain Yate’s train at Madeley Market
Station and pulled his carriage through the
streets of Madeley to his home as an act of
recognition for his bravery.'

I still think there was something similar regarding somewhere in Yorkshire too where he also received a hero's welcome and no doubt I will wake up at 3a.m. and remember where I've seen it!

[seaforths]

Updated: two Word Documents below for Newspapers and prisoners' accounts. Thanks Craig a fine haul with only one previously covered by Phil and I have added them to the document on newspaper articles.

ALL MOVEMENTS FROM BATTLE AREA TO TORGAU.docx

NEWSPAPER ARTICLES.docx

[trajan]

It was a cheque on Col Bond's Cox account which was cleverly signed by all of the officers ...

Superb sleuthing again Craig!

I note that the Evening Despatch - Monday 16 December 1918 one mentions how Bond was 'toured' with other captured officers, which makes me wonder if there is somewhere a photograph of them as well. Either way, the 'infamous' photo of Yate would fit with this aspect of their early imprisonment - with Yate being put on display somewhere, although to my mind, given that he has most of his bits and pieces, including binocular case, this tends to hint it was taken 26th/27th/28th or so.

Interesting to see, though, that whereas the Despatch article, written substantially post eventum, names Bond and indicates that five other officers signed the cheque, the Birmingham Daily Post - Friday 09 October 1914 gives the names of 12 men, including Bond, and so by 1918 the exact details of the original story had been forgotten ...

Julian

[seaforths]

Superb sleuthing again Craig!

I note that the Evening Despatch - Monday 16 December 1918 one mentions how Bond was 'toured' with other captured officers, which makes me wonder if there is somewhere a photograph of them as well. Either way, the 'infamous' photo of Yate would fit with this aspect of their early imprisonment - with Yate being put on display somewhere, although to my mind, given that he has most of his bits and pieces, including binocular case, this tends to hint it was taken 26th/27th/28th or so.

Interesting to see, though, that whereas the Despatch article, written substantially post eventum, names Bond and indicates that five other officers signed the cheque, the Birmingham Daily Post - Friday 09 October 1914 gives the names of 12 men, including Bond, and so by 1918 the exact details of the original story had been forgotten ...

Julian

The train of triumph I am not sure what he is referring to on that one. It could be referring to his journey to Torgau or, it could be referring to them being moved from in November from Torgau to Magdeburg. Lt. Col. Bond intimates in his account that as the numbers of prisoners captured began to fall and to keep the German civil hatred of the enemy stoked-up they moved prisoners from one location to another and they were paraded as fresh prisoners. The civil population would also then think that the German army were still capturing prisoners in large numbers. It was something of a propaganda move on the part of the Germans. Later, I suppose, as the civilians received news of their own friends and family members being captured, their attitude toward allied prisoners changed. Presumably the penny dropped that they would not want their own maltreated in the same way as a reprisal for the way they were maltreating prisoners in Germany. This happened quicker in some areas of Germany than in others.

If you recall their accounts of the violent receptions received at the locations their trains stopped at and of course the way they were paraded and so badly treated at Torgau it might surprise you that by the following May, the attitude certainly in Torgau had changed. They had put other prisoners in Torgau and Padre O'Rourke, just before his repatriation in the May of 1915 returned there from Magdeburg, to give a service to the new men. He had a German escort who took him from the train station at Torgau through the town. He was in uniform and none of the civilians batted an eyelid. His escort took him into a cafe and shops. O'Rorke giving the escort his word of honour, was allowed to go shopping etc. alone. Quite a turnaround from earlier. At other locations however, I have read accounts where prisoners were still being treated with extreme hostility at the time.

[ss002d6252]

In dutch but appear to be about his death.

http://kranten.delpher.nl/nl/view/index?query=yate&coll=dddℑ=ddd%3A010548217%3Ampeg21%3Aa0073&page=1&maxperpage=10&cql[]=%28date+_gte_+24-08-1914%29&cql[]=%28date+_lte_+24-11-1914%29&cql[]=%28content+all+yate%29

Craig

[ss002d6252]

http://kranten.delpher.nl/nl/view/index?query=yate&coll=dddℑ=ddd%3A010167999%3Ampeg21%3Aa0108&page=1&maxperpage=10&cql[]=%28date+_gte_+24-08-1914%29&cql[]=%28date+_lte_+24-11-1914%29&cql[]=%28content+all+yate%29

Craig

[ss002d6252]

There are quite a few more potential articles here - http://kranten.delpher.nl/nl/results/index?coll=ddd&query=&cql[0]=%28date+_gte_+24-08-1914%29&cql[1]=%28date+_lte_+24-11-1914%29&cql[2]=%28content+all+yate%29

I've only looked up to the end of Nov 14.

Craig

[seaforths]

Nice one Craig - now we just need to find someone that can translate Dutch! Mainly to ascertain if any mention is made to a photograph being published earlier. I can make out certain words that relate to similar German articles and I will take a closer look tomorrow and compare them properly. I was looking at the Word Doc. just now and I know for sure that the image of him that has been used on this and previous threads comes from the pages I posted a couple of pages back (The Great War Magazine). However that image wasn't published there until 23 October 1915 and yet we have three newspapers published in English (one UK and two American) making reference to the photograph and all three newspaper articles published at the back end of November 1914 and so pre-date its appearance in The Great War Magazine.

I know that there is an earlier article on him in The Great War Magazine but until I manage to locate it, I don't know if they used the image in that instance and when the earlier article was published. I only know that it was in Part II Page 45. I'm still looking...

Craig I think you are right to limit the time frame in searching overseas newspapers and when I've been looking I have done he same thing and just worked systematically from the 26 August to the end of November 1914. I am also conscious that the image we are used to seeing might not be what was published in German press. The image we are looking at just features him because the caption below is about him but I do wonder if it is not part of a bigger image that showed more...

[ss002d6252]

The image we are looking at just features him because the caption below is about him but I do wonder if it is not part of a bigger image that showed more...

It would be nice if it did. It's also a thought that some where, some place there may be more pictures taken at the same time but that's an even bigger haystack.

I know that there is an earlier article on him in The Great War Magazine but until I manage to locate it, I don't know if they used the image in that instance and when the earlier article was published. I only know that it was in Part II Page 45. I'm still looking...

I might a poke around a few things tonight and see if I can hit lucky.

Craig

[trajan]

In dutch but appear to be about his death.

http://kranten.delpher.nl/nl/view/index?query=yate&coll=dddℑ=ddd%3A010548217%3Ampeg21%3Aa0073&page=1&maxperpage=10&cql[]=%28date+_gte_+24-08-1914%29&cql[]=%28date+_lte_+24-11-1914%29&cql[]=%28content+all+yate%29

Capture.JPG

Craig

Yes, standard report - found with bag full of English papers and cut his throat.

http://kranten.delpher.nl/nl/view/index?query=yate&coll=dddℑ=ddd%3A010167999%3Ampeg21%3Aa0108&page=1&maxperpage=10&cql[]=%28date+_gte_+24-08-1914%29&cql[]=%28date+_lte_+24-11-1914%29&cql[]=%28content+all+yate%29

Capture.JPG

Craig

Same again, basically, but question at top and bottom, 'Why did Yate kill himself?"

[trajan]

Well, my Dutch mate passed on to me for inspection a bound volume of 'Die Woche', a Berlin illustrated weekly, this being his only time-period volume relevant for Yate and with nos.40-52, for October-December 1914. No Yate, I'm afraid, but quite a few photographs of captured English soldiers, including a few kilted ones... So, this same magazine for August-September is a possible candidate for the original photograph. Haven't tried to search for it on-line though - final week of teaching starts tomorrow (then Ramadan bayram, then exams and marking...).

Trajan

EDIT: specify volume

[seaforths]

Well, my Dutch mate passed on to me for inspection a bound volume of 'Die Woche', a Berlin illustrated weekly, this being his only volume and with nos.40-52, for October-December 1914. No Yate, I'm afraid, but quite a few photographs of captured English soldiers, including a few kilted ones... So, this same magazine for August-September is a possible candidate for the original photograph. Haven't tried to search for it on-line though - final week of teaching starts tomorrow (then Ramadan bayram, then exams and marking...).

Trajan

Oh nice one Trajan! It certainly sounds promising. Oh it's such a shame he didn't have August and September too

[trajan]

Oh nice one Trajan! It certainly sounds promising. Oh it's such a shame he didn't have August and September too

Indeed, rats... IIRC, your granddad and/or various relatives were POW - if they were in this time period then I'll scan what I can find.

BTW, my mate also has some later issues of the same (I think 1915 and 1918) which I have left with him for the time being as he has also loaned me three very thick French illustrated tomes of more than standard folio size - 'L'Album de la Guerre 1914-1919' - but I haven't even opened those yet!

Possibly at some future point I'll scan some of the photographs anyway, as there are some interesting ones, e.g., a Russian wheeled 'armoured shield' with loopholes in it, for wheeling forward in front of advancing riflemen!

[ss002d6252]

It's like there's a conspiracy against being able to find articles from August & September 1914.

Craig

[trajan]

and

[trajan]

'L'Album de la Guerre 1914-1919'

Well, volume 1 goes up to January 1916 and is, as might be expected, dominated by French matters and so no Yate... So, despite lot's of nice stuff though, one more to cross of the list!

[trajan]

Heck... Just found another possible source via Google.de... A German weekly called 'Deutsche Kriegszeitung', another Berlin weekly...

[ss002d6252]

That paper looks interesting - it certainly has a picture from Doberitz in it (not sure Yate is in the picture though).

http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/feldztgdkz1914/0029?sid=c534aca030167a59c0ab98c5a23846df

Craig

[seaforths]

It's like there's a conspiracy against being able to find articles from August & September 1914.!

Craig

I know what you mean, even the posts that mention the photograph don't say where or when it was seen.

Indeed, rats... IIRC, your granddad and/or various relatives were POW - if they were in this time period then I'll scan what I can find.

BTW, my mate also has some later issues of the same (I think 1915 and 1918) which I have left with him for the time being as he has also loaned me three very thick French illustrated tomes of more than standard folio size - 'L'Album de la Guerre 1914-1919' - but I haven't even opened those yet!

Possibly at some future point I'll scan some of the photographs anyway, as there are some interesting ones, e.g., a Russian wheeled 'armoured shield' with loopholes in it, for wheeling forward in front of advancing riflemen!

Heck... Just found another possible source via Google.de... A German weekly called 'Deutsche Kriegszeitung', another Berlin weekly...

I have a feeling I've done that one already a wee while ago. I will check when I can get onto the PC. BTW my granddad was captured 30th Sep/1st Oct 1917 so he might pop up along with the other 4.

[seaforths]

That paper looks interesting - it certainly has a picture from Doberitz in it (not sure Yate is in the picture though).

http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/feldztgdkz1914/0029?sid=c534aca030167a59c0ab98c5a23846df

Capture.JPG

Craig

I'm not sure any of them from the Battle of Le Cateau went to Doberitz. Have a look at the Word Doc. I posted that has their movements on it. Still any of the papers showing images have got to be worth checking out as that where we'll likely find him.

[ss002d6252]

If nothing else the German papers have some amazingly good war time pictures.

Craig.

[trajan]

Yep, finally got that Heidelberg site...http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/feldztgdkz1914/ with many wonderful photographs but no Yate...

"Somewhere, in the archives / There it lies / That sad photo of Major Yate / With name of place and the date"...

Off to do a bayonet...

[ss002d6252]

I wonder if the Red Cross archives will have any info when they are re-launched later this year,

Craig

[Phil Evans]

Yep, finally got that Heidelberg site...http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/feldztgdkz1914/ with many wonderful photographs but no Yate...

"Somewhere, in the archives / There it lies / That sad photo of Major Yate / With name of place and the date"...

Off to do a bayonet...

Trajan,

If I had been a bit quicker, I could have saved you looking through Deutsche Kriegszeitung. It is one of the ones in the ZEFYS collection (see post #171).

Phil