seaforths Posted 7 February , 2015 Share Posted 7 February , 2015 Major Yate.jpg Is this the picture> regards indefatigable It's the one that caused some controversy towards the end of the old thread. I found Mr Goodman but as Trajan said, the image seems to have been taken down. I don't want to stir up a hornet's nest by re-posting here. If you want it again, please PM me an email address and I will pass it via other means Thanks but no - the one I want is the one showing a group of soldiers, including the chappie on the left, in their light-coloured but 'dunkelbalu' uniforms, while they were in Liege. Trajan PS: There's a prize around for anyone who can establish where and when that 'capture' photograph first appeared - a European newspaper almost certainly! It was winging its way to you a few minutes ago and you should have it soon. I have some papers to plough through on German atrocities carried out in Belgium and France from this period. It is a collection of statements the FO pulled together with names of witnesses (civilian and military). I think around 200 pages to get through - on the trail of Hermann and his Bavarian buddies in the area! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 8 February , 2015 Share Posted 8 February , 2015 Many, many, thanks Seaforths - I know you are very busy this weekend, so I am especially grateful! I'll sit down with them later and PM you also - I have a 08:40-10:30 powerpoint class to prepare for tomorrow - usually a doddle but this one has the inspector's in... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforth78 Posted 12 February , 2015 Share Posted 12 February , 2015 If I dig around I will probably have it. I know the one you mean. S78, likewise, I will try to do some digging around. Unfortunately, it's my working weekend. I'll see what I can get done this evening. From memory,the file shows who was recommended, which ones were challenged (which was most of them), those that subsequently went through and those denied. Although I copied it in the order it was in the file, it is very disjointed and you have to keep going back and forth between several lots of pages. Edit: regarding evidence, it states in a lot of cases, refer to the War Diary but the relevant WD pages are not in the file. Oh yes please namesake! And take your time and don't bother about me, when you can get to it. I see that Trajan has poor Goodman on his thoughts. What's the prize Trajan? A Gallipoli bayonet!? (How would I like one; Turkish/Mauser; Enfield/Australian) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 12 February , 2015 Share Posted 12 February , 2015 I see that Trajan has poor Goodman on his thoughts. What's the prize Trajan? A Gallipoli bayonet!? (How would I like one; Turkish/Mauser; Enfield/Australian) Well, I am getting closer, I think, to pinning down those guards... I am pretty confident now that they are Prussian, not Bavarian - I'll save a proper report for later, but if interested I can PM you the series of analyses that leads me there - but it doesn't get us any closer as to where the actual photograph was taken (although I have my views on that)! BTW, should make it clear that no, I am NOT obsessed with it ( ), just want to see if a proper ID on those men can get us anywhere! As for bayonets, well the last one I posted on 'Australian Bayonets' has a fair claim to having been at Canakkale, so that's two of my 'hookies' that superficially at least can lay claim to that distinction, one certainly, the other probably, being Australian-issued, and both bought here in Turkey! Not certain if I am ready yet to part with either though... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforth78 Posted 12 February , 2015 Share Posted 12 February , 2015 Oh do PM please. I would like hear your thoughts along with the bayonet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforth78 Posted 12 February , 2015 Share Posted 12 February , 2015 As for bayonets, well the last one I posted on 'Australian Bayonets' has a fair claim to having been at Canakkale, so that's two of my 'hookies' that superficially at least can lay claim to that distinction, one certainly, the other probably, being Australian-issued, and both bought here in Turkey! Not certain if I am ready yet to part with either though... Speaking of Gallipoli, here is my new toy. Quite a blood and guts chap. http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=224160&hl=erskine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 12 February , 2015 Share Posted 12 February , 2015 Speaking of Gallipoli, here is my new toy. Quite a blood and guts chap. http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=224160&hl=erskine Indeed - a very nice series of finds there! Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforth78 Posted 12 February , 2015 Share Posted 12 February , 2015 Indeed - a very nice series of finds there! Trajan I was also very lucky once my post was read to be notified by a fellow member that he had his medals which he would be glad to reunite with me and the sword so very delighted indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefatigable Posted 12 February , 2015 Share Posted 12 February , 2015 I have just received a copy of a book by Paul Oldfield entitled "Victoria Crosses on the Western Front August 1914 - April 1915 Mons to Hill 60 published by Pen & Sword 2014. It features 59 VC winners one of which is our man Major Yate. I have only glanced though it at the moment but I did notice it contains 3 photos of Yate one of which is the same one I posted as well as one of his Headstone. regards Indefatigable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforths Posted 12 February , 2015 Share Posted 12 February , 2015 I have just received a copy of a book by Paul Oldfield entitled "Victoria Crosses on the Western Front August 1914 - April 1915 Mons to Hill 60 published by Pen & Sword 2014. It features 59 VC winners one of which is our man Major Yate. I have only glanced though it at the moment but I did notice it contains 3 photos of Yate one of which is the same one I posted as well as one of his Headstone. regards Indefatigable I have a couple of books on VCs but that's not one of them. I have the Gerald Gliddons book which I had downloaded to my iPad as an ibook and promptly forgot about it until Trajan jogged my memory some time back. I lose/misplace books too easily, especially electronic ones. I need to make an inventory of all so I can track them down more easily. I made a throwaway remark on Holmes (KOYLI) and his VC on this thread (or the old one). He was published in print in early 1915 (I think) about Major Yate and the bayonet charge. I made the point of saying; how would he know or witness any of this as being fact? He was supposed to be saving guns and wounded men etc.Gliddon's book is quite enlightening on him. I would be interested to know what Paul Oldfield says on Holmes. According to Gliddon, Holmes was with A Company who did receive the order to retire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indefatigable Posted 12 February , 2015 Share Posted 12 February , 2015 (edited) Seaforths The following is my précis of what appears in Oldfield's book. A Company was in the angle formed by the Cambrai and Reumont roads so when the order to retire arrived it was clear that the withdrawal would be hazardous. The survivors were running back under close enemy fire when Lance Corporal Frederick Holmes heard a cry for help from Bugler Woodcock who had broken legs, it was about 4pm. He picked him up and managed to carry him for about 100 yards before deciding that he needed to strip off his equipment so that he could carry him over his shoulder. Oldfield then states that Holmes is reputed to have carried him for about 2¼ miles before handing Woodcock over to the stretcher bearers. Subsequently Holmes then ran back towards the old position and came across a gun already limbered up but with the crew lying around it either dead or wounded. He put a wounded trumpeter on one of the horses and climbed on another before moving off just before the enemy reached him. At one point he had to use his bayonet to aid his escape. After going about 3 miles he stopped at a stream to rest the horses before eventually meeting up with a battery. He re-joined his battery on the 30th August. In the biography of Holmes elsewhere in the book Oldfield mentions that a letter in the Imperial War Museum files written by a Major H E Trevor who made the initial recommendation regretted writing it as Holmes had been inaccurate in his account and others did equal work. Oldfield then added "What was meant by this is not known" Is this of any interest? regards Indefatigable Edited 12 February , 2015 by Indefatigable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforth78 Posted 12 February , 2015 Share Posted 12 February , 2015 I would be interested to know what Paul Oldfield says on Holmes. According to Gliddon, Holmes was with A Company who did receive the order to retire. I used to correspond with Paul way back in 2002-3 on the VC forum and that's where I received from information on Yate and enlightened me on the suicide incident which he believed. Thank you for reminding of Paul. He was very good in helping me with what he had back then when starting my research on Yate though he was not my focal research for my doctorate then (it was another Japanese language officer, Captain MD Kennedy OBE, 2nd Scottish Rifles.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P.B. Posted 28 January , 2016 Share Posted 28 January , 2016 I'm not sure if this has been brought up on any of the Yate threads on this forum, but this appears to be newsreel footage of Yate with his captors -there's a fleeting glimpse at 14.24 in this documentary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcUaNw4XZK0 Yate seen from behind, but undoubtedly the same Germans from the photo in the initial post on this thread. All the best Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPT Posted 28 January , 2016 Share Posted 28 January , 2016 Wow. That's amazing. I wonder where Heinrich Billstein obtained the footage, and whether there's more of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 29 January , 2016 Share Posted 29 January , 2016 I'm not sure if this has been brought up on any of the Yate threads on this forum, but this appears to be newsreel footage of Yate with his captors -there's a fleeting glimpse at 14.24 in this documentary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcUaNw4XZK0 Yate seen from behind, but undoubtedly the same Germans from the photo in the initial post on this thread. All the best Paul. My golly gosh - so it is! No doubt about it! In an immediately preceding frame is a pickelhaube with a '23' on it - if this is part of the same sequence, then that might help tie it down. Is the soldier with the matronly looking lady in the scenes right before Yate the same as in the Yate shot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 29 January , 2016 Share Posted 29 January , 2016 The chap on the extreme left at 14:24-25 in the film - distinctive long nose and moustache - is wearing a Prussian centenary medal and is the same chap who appears on the right of a photograph taken at Liege with one of his colleagues and a seated officer, and the seated officer in that photograph is shown with to his his left our moustachioed 'hero' with the wonky tunic button who appears in the Yate capture photograph and at 14:24-25 in the film (The first two photographs were both downloaded from the original and now locked Yate thread, but seem to have gone now. The second of the two is a Drake Goodman photograph, the first is also, I believe, but if not, I would greatly appreciate being corrected. The third photograph is in the public domain) Trajan P.B., that is incredibly well-spotted by you, and many thanks for posting it! The Seaforths will be even more pleased than me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IPT Posted 29 January , 2016 Share Posted 29 January , 2016 The Seaforths will be even more pleased than me. The Seaforths may explode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 29 January , 2016 Share Posted 29 January , 2016 The Seaforths may explode. With delight! And coming so soon after Burns' night as well... Joy unfounded, perhaps? But, on a serious note. I wonder if the 'Capture' photograph is a still from the film? Note that in the film Yate has his back turned but seems to me to be holding something in his hand, which he certainly is in the 'Capture' photograph. I also noticed (going back a bit before to the matronly matron) that there were other probable POW's in the background, while the presence of those volunteer medics implies somewhere well behind the lines. So, if this is all one film, then along with the No. 23 pickelhaube chappie it might just help narrow locations down for the thing. Liege??? My knowledge of the area around Le Cateau and troop movements in the aftermath is abysmal... OK, now to technical stuff... Never payed with Youtube, but is there a way to do a slide-by-slide analysis? Trajan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforths Posted 3 February , 2016 Share Posted 3 February , 2016 GET IN!!!! WELL DONE! Sorry, I've been on leave. One of my furrry 4 paws lost her battle with cancer on Monday and has been quite poorly over the last two weeks and needed lots of nursing. Thank you very much for posting it and I agree, it is most definitely him! What an amazing find and very well spotted. As Trajan has already put up the mugshots the film and photographs together are evidence enough to I.D. him from behind. The regiment that captured him was from Torgau but was Thuringian. Also, I discovered last week while dabbling that there appeared to also be an Uhlan unit based there, also Thuringian and they were likely mobilised at the start of the war too. That kind of helped me reconcile why so many statements etc. mentioned wounded/drunk Uhlans on the Torgau train. I think it is quite likely that the photograph was taken just before/after that film footage and the location, I think might be Mons. I'll have a play around tonight and try to extract a series of stills. Hopefully decent enough quality to take a closer look at his German friends. I also found another statement from an officer that kind of runs in with that piece of footage. He said that the German soldiers with cameras were all over the place, practically mobbing prisoners to take their photographs which duly appeared in the newspapers in Germany. He said he made it as difficult as possible for them to get a photograph of him by turning his back on them constantly. Obviously, the novelty hadn't worn off by 1917 when they photographed my granddad and his comrades after capture! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 4 February , 2016 Share Posted 4 February , 2016 GET IN!!!! WELL DONE! Indeed, indeed, 'O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!', and more than full marks (if such a thing is possible, as in 150%!) to PB for being so keen- and mentally sighted as to see it and make the connection! Hats' off, sire! Seaforths - looking forward to that analysis - but is it all one film? The chappies and the matronly matron are all members of the voluntary medical organisation and were supposed to be well out of active firing areas - although I have seen a photograph of one of these men next to an entrenched field piece. Lots of photographers around - interesting! I can see why Yate turned his back... But in the infamous one, Yate is standing still, which means posing, doesn't it, long enough for the exposure? Or still from a film??? Mons? Or Liege? I haven't looked up the Picklehaube man from Inf,Reg.23, but the Uhlan sounds intriguing! Anyway, looking forward to closer analysis from what you have - if nothing else to find out where our friend with the wonky button came from! Julian PS: Sorry about the cat... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforths Posted 5 February , 2016 Share Posted 5 February , 2016 Thanks Trajan, she's at peace now. I have cropped the footage down to the relevant few seconds piece we need and working through it at the moment frame by frame. I think we are looking at separate film footage. I picked up a couple of transitions in his video editing and cropped to those. That has left me analysing more than one piece that is not divided by a transition. I'm in the process of capturing stills by working through it. At that level, you can see what poor condition the film survived in and it is very flawed. The flaws are difficult to spot in running film but in stills they are there in plenty. Nevertheless, we might end up with some workable pieces. Once I've finished capturing stills, I'll have a digital dabble with them and see if I can improve them before posting them up. I believe I can already identify some of our German friends from the photographs you put up a couple of posts back. - not just the chap with the odd button. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforths Posted 7 February , 2016 Share Posted 7 February , 2016 As well as mucking about with stills, I've edited the clips down into what I believe are two relevant pieces. I've split the clips and created slows but when I apply slow to the first clip, it's docking the last frame. I think that before the documentary maker got his hands on the films, they had been through their own crude and early edit. Possibly split and spliced together. Either that or, the cameraman stopped filming and then resumed filming again. The reason for this thought is that the reel appears to have been creased when wound and stored. If you look at the last/first frames, you can see the crease appearing in both. If this is down to early editing etc, it does not necessarily follow that these two pieces are related at all in terms of time & location: You can also see that the quality of many stills is not good. I will attempt to get the video clips up but might have to post via links Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforths Posted 7 February , 2016 Share Posted 7 February , 2016 I'm hoping this will work. I'm not having much luck via photobucket...It seems that I have no option but to use links.When I tried to run it via photobucket the same as I sometimes post images, I received a forum message that this type of image extension was now allowed. I'm trying now via OneDrive...First two links show at normal speed and then slow motion. The 3rd and 4th link likewise with the other piece. You should also be able to download from those links to watch off line... <iframe src="https://onedrive.live.com/embed?cid=8DF1E713C2B47BF5&resid=8DF1E713C2B47BF5%21735&authkey=AA2DdFjyZos3e0E"width="320" height="240" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" allowfullscreen></iframe> <iframe src="https://onedrive.live.com/embed?cid=8DF1E713C2B47BF5&resid=8DF1E713C2B47BF5%21737&authkey=AN55N7w-OPX8ps4"width="320" height="240" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" allowfullscreen></iframe> <iframe src="https://onedrive.live.com/embed?cid=8DF1E713C2B47BF5&resid=8DF1E713C2B47BF5%21739&authkey=ADK2ZUU2iWrSb_E"width="320" height="240" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" allowfullscreen></iframe> <iframe src="https://onedrive.live.com/embed?cid=8DF1E713C2B47BF5&resid=8DF1E713C2B47BF5%21738&authkey=AHXE9fP43uzurog"width="320" height="240" frameborder="0" scrolling="no" allowfullscreen></iframe> Any thoughts on these two particular clips being related??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforth78 Posted 8 February , 2016 Share Posted 8 February , 2016 Thanks Trajan, she's at peace now. I have cropped the footage down to the relevant few seconds piece we need and working through it at the moment frame by frame. I think we are looking at separate film footage. I picked up a couple of transitions in his video editing and cropped to those. That has left me analysing more than one piece that is not divided by a transition. I'm in the process of capturing stills by working through it. At that level, you can see what poor condition the film survived in and it is very flawed. The flaws are difficult to spot in running film but in stills they are there in plenty. Nevertheless, we might end up with some workable pieces. Once I've finished capturing stills, I'll have a digital dabble with them and see if I can improve them before posting them up. I believe I can already identify some of our German friends from the photographs you put up a couple of posts back. - not just the chap with the odd button. I'm sorry.....RIP in peace Maya.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaforth78 Posted 8 February , 2016 Share Posted 8 February , 2016 The chap on the extreme left at 14:24-25 in the film - distinctive long nose and moustache - is wearing a Prussian centenary medal and is the same chap who appears on the right of a photograph taken at Liege with one of his colleagues and a seated officer, and the seated officer in that photograph is shown with to his his left our moustachioed 'hero' with the wonky tunic button who appears in the Yate capture photograph and at 14:24-25 in the film Bavarians in Liege1.JPG Bavarians in Liege2A.JPG bavarians in liege major yateA.JPG (The first two photographs were both downloaded from the original and now locked Yate thread, but seem to have gone now. The second of the two is a Drake Goodman photograph, the first is also, I believe, but if not, I would greatly appreciate being corrected. The third photograph is in the public domain) Trajan P.B., that is incredibly well-spotted by you, and many thanks for posting it! The Seaforths will be even more pleased than me. The Seaforths may explode. I'm not sure if this has been brought up on any of the Yate threads on this forum, but this appears to be newsreel footage of Yate with his captors -there's a fleeting glimpse at 14.24 in this documentary: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcUaNw4XZK0 Yate seen from behind, but undoubtedly the same Germans from the photo in the initial post on this thread. All the best Paul. God bless you Paul, you made us Seaforths's extremely happy and I am just delighted that you were able to unearth this heavenly gift for all of us to see and appreciate. I can't thank you enough! Out of interest, and even though Yate's back is to us, it seems he's on good terms with his captors and being a German speaker no doubt helped things in great contrast to his well known photograph in a sulking mood. Oh how God I wished we could get a front view of him. Interestingly, the Germans, as confirmed in his capture photo, shows him with his Christmas tree complete with bios. Shabash Paul! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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