Capture of Major Yate

[seaforths]

If nothing else the German papers have some amazingly good war time pictures.

Craig.

Yes, I've spotted some interesting jock ones among them from early on. Actually I might go look at one in particular again. There were a few Gordon Hrs. picked up at Le Cateau.

Yep, finally got that Heidelberg site...http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/feldztgdkz1914/ with many wonderful photographs but no Yate...

"Somewhere, in the archives / There it lies / That sad photo of Major Yate / With name of place and the date"...

Off to do a bayonet...

Steady away Trajan - we will get there in the end and as Craig pointed out earlier, they are updating the BNA all the time and that goes for some of the overseas newspapers too. We will have to keep an eye out and revisit some I guess in case they have been updated. Don't tell Phil I said that I think he is away somewhere gently rocking to and fro in a corner murmuring about postcards and newspapers!

I wonder if the Red Cross archives will have any info when they are re-launched later this year,

Craig

Now that will be interesting to see what they say...I have two or three Foreign Office files on my radar for an up and coming trip at the end of the month on Major Yate. Some of those files have newspaper cuttiings in them...they relate to his death but hopefully...I also have another one to dig out while I'm there on the challenge that was made to his award of the VC at the time. So holding off the VC stuff for now until I see what emerges on that one

[seaforths]

Trajan,

If I hadd been a bit quicker, I could have saved you looking through Deutsche Kriegszeitung. It is one of the ones in the ZEFYS collection (see post #171).

Phil

I thought one of us had done it already. I should have back checked the posts (still not on the PC - cooking Sunday dinner - allegedly!)

Is it me? I'm having a devil of a problem getting my posts up and Siri keeps opening up randomly asking what I want. I'm getting tired of yelling nothing at him - he appears to have gone into a sulk - good!

[trajan]

Trajan,

If I had been a bit quicker, I could have saved you looking through Deutsche Kriegszeitung. It is one of the ones in the ZEFYS collection (see post #171).

Phil

And if I had been a bit more on the ball I would have noted that! But, in any case, it has been fun going through those weeklies - I especially liked one photograph I cam across, of some 'neutral' Dutch looking at a very small hole in the road caused by an 'errant' British bomb, the caption being something about the indiscriminate nature of the Brits in bombing neutral territories...

EDIT: Just deleted two copies of this post, which I had initially tried to put up when the system was on one of its g-o--v-e-r-y--s-l-o-w-l-y moods...

[helpjpl]

Hello Trajan

Is it possible to send you a pm about the newspaper article giving details of CAL Yate's birthplace?

[trajan]

'L'Album de la Guerre 1914-1919'

I did the 3 volumes on Saturday and no Yate...

I also googled for Die Woche 39, the week before the earliest issue I have, and found a German bookseller with a copy, which he lists as:

Titel: Die Woche. Kriegsjahr 1914. Nummer 39. 16.Jahrgang. Gewicht: 200 g Verlag: Druck und Verlag August Scherl Ort: Berlin Erschienen: 1914 Zustand: leichte Gebrauchsspuren Kurzinfo: Einzelheft vom 26.September 1914. SS 1606 - 1640. Orig.- Heft. Zahlreiche Fotos. Beiträge u.a. " Als Flieger in Feindesland ", " Schlachtenbilder vom westlichen Kriegsschauplatz ", " Wie unsere Frauen helfen " u.v.a. Zahlreiche Fotos, u.a. Ausmusterung von Autos für das Rote Kreuz in Berlin u.v.a. Die Heftklammern durchgerostet, das Papier teilweise etwas gewellt, sonst komplettes Exemplar in ordentlichem Erhaltungszustand.

Well,if that was for the w/e 26 Sept., then possibly nothing there for Yate, but I'll continue looking for a copy to physically examine to be safe...

Hello Trajan

Is it possible to send you a pm about the newspaper article giving details of CAL Yate's birthplace?

Hi helpjpl,

Sorry to have overlooked you and your PM - I'll go to my 'Inbox' now!

[seaforths]

Trajan I would cover to the end of November in a search. If you look at the Word Doc on newspaper reports the ones that seem to be mentioning the photograph seem to be dated around the end of November. Of course there could have been a significant delay in those reports and it might have appeared in German much sooner.

I'm just about to leave for a shift at work and train to London straight after so will be off the air till I get back early o'clock in the morning on Friday but I will be digging around on him while there!

[trajan]

The bound copies of Die Woche that my mate loaned me go up to Dec 25 1914, and nowt in there. However, my mate has some more Die Woche of a later date that I have not checked yet.

Enjoy work (the curse of most GWF members!) and the stay in London... Something tells me that you will be somewhere south of the river for at least part of the time...

[seaforths]

A very productive trip indeed. Having a daughter handy with a camera has doubled my workload though but I shouldn't complain! I didn't keep an accurate count but on the train home I did tot up 4000 images between us for our last day so I am going to be a busy bunny. Juggling with work since returning, I have managed to get through my first 100 images (not far to go then!).

From last nights efforts with the images, I was able to glean that Major Yate sent his letter dated 2nd September to his wife from Magdeburg. I haven't checked the Word Doc. on their movements to see how long it was taking to make the journey by train but from that information alone, I don't think he was kept in the area for 5 days as happened to Lt. Col. Bond & co. There were one or two who spent three days at Magdeburg before being moved on to Torgau and I think from the date/place of his letter, he was also there for a similar time period.

I will post the contents as a proper quote later but I have to go to work again today

Edit: typo

[trajan]

Looking forward to things!

[Indefatigable]

Do we know how long it took for his letter to reach his wife? I presume it would have been perused by the German military before being sent and would they have exploited him in any fashion to allow the letter to be sent? Would they have made a note of his wife's Swiss address for propaganda purposes? Equally could they have been involved in ensuring his wife received newspaper reports of his death as part of a propaganda campaign?

regards

Indefatigable

[seaforths]

Many thanks Seaforths for the hotel address.

I have a couple of old tour guides of Switzerland (Baedeker's 1897 and Muirhead's Blue Guide 1923) and from what I can glean from them it seems that Arosa wasn't exactly an easy place to get to in 1915 (the village of Arosa being about 1800 metres above sea level and a population of somewhere between 1000-2000 people). If I understood what I read correctly a railway spur from Chur (the nearest town) was built between 1912-1914 and the journey took about 90+ minutes. A road suitable for motor vehicles was not built until the 1920's although horse driven transport was available (distance of about 30 kms). The hotel itself was regarded as the "English Hotel" in Arosa. It seems that originally it was known for its health spa hotels until Arthur Conan Doyle skied from Davos to Arosa in 1895 and published details of his experience.

My line of thinking was that her location might have provided simple and easy access to the German press but clearly not. Her choice of location may have been dictated by giving the appearence of being a tourist rather than finding out more about her husbands demise.

regards

Indefatigable

Do we know how long it took for his letter to reach his wife? I presume it would have been perused by the German military before being sent and would they have exploited him in any fashion to allow the letter to be sent? Would they have made a note of his wife's Swiss address for propaganda purposes? Equally could they have been involved in ensuring his wife received newspaper reports of his death as part of a propaganda campaign?

regards

Indefatigable

Glad you are still with us. I have just been back trawling through the thread for your earlier post on the hotel Mrs Yate was using. Was this place anywhere near the Swiss border with Germany? I have managed to organise some of the stuff I got into folders and amongst them is a document complaining that although supposedly neutral, there was a pro German attitude amongst the Swiss and that German newspapers were common. I will dig that out too tonight once I get the domestic engineering sorted!

Edit: will see if I can find anything on dates for the letter when I return to that tonight too.

[Indefatigable]

Seaforths

I'm still around and many thanks for asking, I just don't have a lot of expertise in WWI military matters so I can't contribute much and even less on Major Yate but this thread is surely educating me in that.

Firstly Arosa is situated in the Canton of Graubünden (Grisons) which is in the German speaking part of Switzerland as well as being mountainous. I don't know exact distances but looking at the maps in my guides Austria seems to be the nearest country at about 40 kms as the crow flies but considerably more by road or rail. Germany is about 100 kms as you have to go North whereas Austria would be tp the East. To reach Germany I would estimate that by using the roads or railway in 1914/15 it would probably take 6-12 hours using the railway as you would have get onto a primary route once beyond Chur and anywhere up 24 hours if using the roads as they would have been poor assuming motor vehicles would have been available. Today you could reach Germany in a couple of hours driving all the way.

regards

Indefatigable

[ss002d6252]

British Red Cross records for Yate - http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Search/#/3/2/107/0/British%20and%20Commonwealth/Military/yate (scroll down the list on the left to 'KOYLI' for the full record).

and for his 'PA' reference number.

http://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/List/196868/1562/29150/

Craig

[Guest]

Reading a footnote in Fire-Power by Bidwell and Graham.

" The handling of German machine-guns improved after 1910 when Captain C A L Yates (sic) visited the Prussian Guard manoeuvres and reported adversely on it at an Aldershot Military Society lecture." (end-note 22 to Chapter 2. Page 297).

Apologies if you already have this snippet. MG

[trajan]

Hmmm... And he was 50% Prusssian...!!!

[ss002d6252]

Hmmm... And he was 50% Prusssian...!!!

I wonder if they held grudges about their military prowess being slighted.

Craig

[seaforths]

Reading a footnote in Fire-Power by Bidwell and Graham.

" The handling of German machine-guns improved after 1910 when Captain C A L Yates (sic) visited the Prussian Guard manoeuvres and reported adversely on it at an Aldershot Military Society lecture." (end-note 22 to Chapter 2. Page 297).

Apologies if you already have this snippet. MG

Martin, many thanks for posting this snippet. I have seen information that indicates he was working in Germany before the war but not where and when. This also seems to be the information that he himself was nervous about with regard to the visits of the men from Berlin and implications that he was spying during his time pre-war in Germany.

[seaforths]

Apologies for my unexplained leave of absence. I made the decision stop what I was doing and to plough on through the images and get them sorted before going any further. Complications of having the stuff split over two cameras and an iPhone meant that if I left it, I was in danger of forgetting which bit of files where on which memory card/device and at the final count just over 10,000 images it was a bit heavy going. However, they are now all sorted into their respective folders and rotated round the right way so I can read them! They were all either on their side or upside down. Having sorted out the first 100 regarding information on Major Yate, I thought yes, best get the rest done too.

The release of the Red Cross records was also a huge distraction which I had intended to stay away from for a while...but...willpower of a wet lettuce! And as I see from Craig’s post, he was in there pretty quickly! Nice one.

On the 18th November information was provided regarding information held by the ‘Casualty Department’ on Major Yate’s death. It was a double query made on 16th November regarding whether the award of the VC was deserved and asking whether he had been killed at Le Cateau because they were unsure of his situation. So as you can see part of the response below (the other part omitted being pertaining to the award), it seems that by 18th November, 8 days before his VC was gazetted, they were indeed aware that he was; alive, had been a POW, had escaped and had died. However, as can be seen, there are conflicts in the information they have. Transcribed from files courtesy of TNA:

‘ (A). Colonel Bond commanding 2nd Battalion K.O.Y.L.I. wrote a postcard (undated) but censored on 13th October 1914...He believed Major Yate to be killed.
(B]. Mrs Yate (wife) received a letter dated 2nd September, 1914, from Major Yate saying he was a prisoner at MAGDEBURG.
[C]. German newspapers dated about September 22nd reported Major Yate’s escape from from TORGAU, and state that he was shot on recapture.
(D). The Gazette de Lausane dated September 23rd, reported that Major Yate committed suicide by cutting his throat with a razor as he was being recaptured.
(E). A Berlin paper of September 26th reported the burial of this officer at MARTINSKIRCHEN. The Pastor at this place also wired to Mrs Yate to same effect.’

I am also intrigued that the Pastor of Martinchirchen wired Mrs Yate. How did he know where she was? The last it would seem that she knew, was that he was a prisoner at Magdeburg. There was something in his file which I think I posted earlier in that she was in touch with the Camp Commandant at Torgau. I think she saw the newspaper reports about his escaping from Torgau and his description given in the press. More indications that she was ahead of the game as far as what was happening to him. The underlining in para D is in the original.

Now for the stuff on the Swiss...

[seaforths]

Seaforths

I'm still around and many thanks for asking, I just don't have a lot of expertise in WWI military matters so I can't contribute much and even less on Major Yate but this thread is surely educating me in that.

Firstly Arosa is situated in the Canton of Graubünden (Grisons) which is in the German speaking part of Switzerland as well as being mountainous. I don't know exact distances but looking at the maps in my guides Austria seems to be the nearest country at about 40 kms as the crow flies but considerably more by road or rail. Germany is about 100 kms as you have to go North whereas Austria would be tp the East. To reach Germany I would estimate that by using the roads or railway in 1914/15 it would probably take 6-12 hours using the railway as you would have get onto a primary route once beyond Chur and anywhere up 24 hours if using the roads as they would have been poor assuming motor vehicles would have been available. Today you could reach Germany in a couple of hours driving all the way.

regards

Indefatigable

So closer to the border more likely to get German papers quicker even though it was a remote place. I realise that maps, particularly big ones, can be a pain to post but would it be possible to see a bit of the map and where the place is in relation to the border areas? That would be really good if you can do it.

[seaforths]

This information is from the British Consulate in Zurich April 1917 before he leaves to take up a post working in connection with Belgium in May 1917. The document is 17 pages long regarding the attitude of the Swiss toward the British through the war to that date and if you read the full document it can be seen that their attitude is perceived to have changed. I thought it might be useful to see as Mrs Yate was based there. The article discusses the theory of some that eastern Switzerland in particular is pro-German because of language, dialect, German propaganda etc.

‘...Although the language is fundamentally the same in the two countries, High German being used in Swiss schools, churches, theatres, etc., as well as being the language of the newspapers, the people of Eastern Switzerland do not speak pure German, but make use of a German dialect of which all classes are extremely proud...It is sometimes not realised how very numerous is the German community...The German element forms nearly one quarter of the total population of Zurich (December 1916)...Mr Borel sends his articles in French, and they are translated into German at the Office of the “Neue Zurcher Zeitung”. These facts are worth recording since at the outbreak of hostilities the “Neue Zurcher Zeitung” was very violently pro-German, and gave great prominence to alleged Belgian atrocities committed on German soldiers. A year later, however, it had become much more moderate. The “Zuricher Post”, although still distinctly pro-German in its sympathies, has lately manifested a desire to maintain friendly relations...I have also established, through Consular Officers at St. Gall and Bale, friendly relations with the Editors of the “St. Galler Tagblatt”, “Ostschweiz”, and “Basler Nachrichten”...Mr Consul Sronge’s report from Lucerne is very discouraging. Lucerne is the centre of a large Roman Catholic population, and unfortunately in Switzerland the influence of the Roman Catholic church is ranged entirely on the side of the Central Powers...the opinion of the Press, of which the leading journal – the “Vaterland” – is entirely under enemy influence...Davos...the place is of very little importance as it is merely a health resort for tuberculous patients. On the whole, the local opinion at this place would seem to be on the side of our enemies, but here, as elsewhere, there is evidence of a change in favour of the Allies. I have the honour to be etc...’

Interesting from the point of view that Mrs Yate was reading German newspapers or was she? Has she perhaps had the information from Swiss newspapers that were pro-German at the time and written in German?

[seaforths]

I will keep an eye on the thread (as I have been even though not posting) through the week but I really want to get to grips with writing up his VC stuff. I go on holiday a week today and I some of my books are electronic and some are good old paper but I don't want to cart the books with me so best I get cracking! I also have to write stuff up for the Highlander's Museum who have expressed an interest in putting the POW photo of granddad et. al. into the local press to see if they can elicit a response on the others in the photograph and possibly include the story in an exhibition planned for later. I'm not due there until 21st so a little time to get the VC stuff pulled together and done before going away first methinks

[seaforths]

One last post this night on a lady I found in the TNA files trying to trace the whereabouts of her brother who she believed might still be alive from the sinking of the Pathfinder 5th September 1914. She wrote to the Foreign Office in September 1915 giving information and asking for enquiries to be made about him. She stated that 8 months previously (so that would be about January or February 1915) she had seen information and an image etc. of in the 'Mirror' or 'Sketch' indicating that he might be alive. The family felt that the image bore a strong resemblance to him so I am guessing it was not of great quality and it would seem that in the article she says his name might be miss-spelt. The response she received from the FO was this:

'...I am very obliged to you for writing to me and I will do what I can to help. I fear that these photographs published in the cheaper illustrated papers have been a cause of great distress, although possibly they have been well meant. Anyhow, I will do what I can. Yours...'

I just thought that was quite poignant considering what we are trying to do here!

[hazelclark]

One last post this night on a lady I found in the TNA files trying to trace the whereabouts of her brother who she believed might still be alive from the sinking of the Pathfinder 5th September 1914. She wrote to the Foreign Office in September 1915 giving information and asking for enquiries to be made about him. She stated that 8 months previously (so that would be about January or February 1915) she had seen information and an image etc. of in the 'Mirror' or 'Sketch' indicating that he might be alive. The family felt that the image bore a strong resemblance to him so I am guessing it was not of great quality and it would seem that in the article she says his name might be miss-spelt. The response she received from the FO was this:

'...I am very obliged to you for writing to me and I will do what I can to help. I fear that these photographs published in the cheaper illustrated papers have been a cause of great distress, although possibly they have been well meant. Anyhow, I will do what I can. Yours...'

I just thought that was quite poignant considering what we are trying to do here!

You should be asleep loooong ago Mrs.! After all, these guys are dead!! They are not going anywhere any time soon. At least I don't think so.

H

[trajan]

You should be asleep loooong ago Mrs.! After all, these guys are dead!! They are not going anywhere any time soon. At least I don't think so.

H

Quite agree - to a point! But when so deep into the chase it does get hard to turn off for a break for fear of loosing the track...

That said, Seaforths, you do have masses to get through, and I wish you well! But get a bit of a rest once the VC episode is clarified, and go and skirl, toss a few cabers, etc. (or whatever it is you do at these Highland gatherings), and after the obligatory(?) fried Mars Bar at the end of the holiday, let us know how things are going!

Trajan

[seaforths]

You should be asleep loooong ago Mrs.! After all, these guys are dead!! They are not going anywhere any time soon. At least I don't think so.

H

Quite agree - to a point! But when so deep into the chase it does get hard to turn off for a break for fear of loosing the track...

That said, Seaforths, you do have masses to get through, and I wish you well! But get a bit of a rest once the VC episode is clarified, and go and skirl, toss a few cabers, etc. (or whatever it is you do at these Highland gatherings), and after the obligatory(?) fried Mars Bar at the end of the holiday, let us know how things are going!

Trajan

I thought I would play my kids (older kids) at their own game! Up most of the night and sleep during the hours of daylight being as I have a weeks rest from my usual responsibilities! Didn't work I've been up and about for a while - they are still asleep! My problem is that I am very much a night owl if I allow myself to be so. And if I complained of being tired when younger, my Dad used to say "You can rest when you''re dead" and "Why are ye still in bed? There's no more sleep left in that bed - you've used it all up".

I managed to also cobble together an index of sorts for the FO files so I can find some of the stuff more easily (I hope). I was going to go through the stuff last night and do it bit at a time but as you say Trajan, once you have the bit between your teeth, you tend to push yourself to the line all in one go.

I hope Indefatigable manages to post a map. I like maps. I'm quite a visual person. I like to have pictures to go with all the literary material. I've no idea why that is but it helps me visualise things in my head better. I am starting to wonder, looking at those Swiss newspapers printed in German if the comment by Col. Yate (his cousin) is a bit of a misnomer and when he says she's seen the articles and picture in the German newspapers, he actually means Swiss newspapers. As Indefatigable pointed out in an earlier post, she was in a remote area, getting German newspapers might have been difficult but Swiss newspapers, particularly pro-German ones at that time...