Some Officers of Kitchener's New Armies

[FROGSMILE]

On 01/05/2022 at 16:39, adrian 1008 said:

 

Brian Hugh Morgan Tuite appears to relinquish his Commission in London Gazette Vol 1 of 1916 He then turns up as Pte 6041 serving with 9Coy Queen Victoria Rifles

Your ongoing support is much appreciated  

Wadham chart V2 PDF.pdf 143.96 kB · 11 downloads

Probably too immature.  A ‘young’ rather than mature 18-year old.  He’d not long left college after 4-years in its OTC and his examination mark suggests someone either, dim or not taking his studies seriously.  As Charles says there’s always a few that don’t make it through such courses.  

[adrian 1008]

20 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

Probably too immature.  A ‘young’ rather than mature 18-year old.  He’d not long left college after 4-years in its OTC and his examination mark suggests someone either, dim or not taking his studies seriously.  As Charles says there’s always a few that don’t make it through such courses.  

Was there a pass mark for the course ? I see Charles s spreadsheet is colour coded Do 3 greens mean a pass and any red mean re coursed until a suitable mark is achieved? 

Did PVC (premature relinquishment of Commission) exist then ?

[adrian 1008]

On 22/04/2022 at 00:36, adrian 1008 said:

Can we assume that  either Browne or Kearne  were sick on the day of the photo then we have 49 

Tentative : No 13 is Lt AGW Browne the only KOSLI and listed in the medal rolls from ancestry as a Lt 

                    No 42 is MJVB Smyth the only R Ir Rifles later > RAF 

                     No 5 is G Mc M Betty Bedfordshire Rgt later Captain

 

John Henry Knowle Kearns is missing (Sick) as there is no Somerset Light Infantry badges present.

No 13 is Lt Arthur Graham William Browne the only Shropshire Light Infantry Officer present

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, adrian 1008 said:

Was there a pass mark for the course ? I see Charles s spreadsheet is colour coded Do 3 greens mean a pass and any red mean re coursed until a suitable mark is achieved? 

Did PVC (premature relinquishment of Commission) exist then ?

I can’t give you confident answers to either of those questions Adrian, but Charles might know more.  Certainly in principle all courses have a pass mark, including in war time. 

[Charles Fair]

1 hour ago, adrian 1008 said:

Was there a pass mark for the course ? I see Charles s spreadsheet is colour coded Do 3 greens mean a pass and any red mean re coursed until a suitable mark is achieved? 

Did PVC (premature relinquishment of Commission) exist then ?

There was a pass mark for the exams and I do have it somewhere in a file for a man who resigned his commission because of poor performance on the course. I’ll dig that out. 
 

The colours are merely some conditional formatting that I applied in Excel so the darker the red the worse the score, and the darker the green the better. Just makes the table easier to read.  NB the third column is the sum of the first two. I’ll do some analysis of this data when I have finished data entry for the 11th course. 
 

No PVC in those terms then. A man couldn’t be sacked from his commission for merely being inefficient (unlike if he had been successfully court martialled for, say, fraud): he had to be asked to resign and then submit his resignation. That process could take weeks as he (and his parents) could explore every avenue for retaining his commission. This might include trying to find another role, as well as appeals to the MP, the Army Council and the Prime Minister. 

Edited 5 May , 2022 by Charles Fair

[adrian 1008]

No 35 on the initial image is Thomas Sidney Athron  LG 08/12/1915 P O W  W Yorks Rgt 21st Pioneer Btn R Fus @FROGSMILE

Please correct my clumsy pronunciation!

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, adrian 1008 said:

No 35 on the initial image is Thomas Sidney Athron  LG 08/12/1915 P O W  W Yorks Rgt 21st Pioneer Btn R Fus @FROGSMILE

Please correct my clumsy pronunciation!

 

Didn’t you earlier in the thread say it was the 34th (Labour) Battalion Royal Fusiliers?  The 21st Battalion were a Public Schools unit.  In the photo you’ve posted he seems to wear a collar badge of the Corps of Royal Engineers, so if definitely him he seems to have transferred later on.

Edited 5 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[adrian 1008]

Yes I should have dated this image I think this image is post WW1

He died in 1944

The LG has him commissioned Prince of Wales West Yorkshire Rgt. My handwritten notes and I think from Charles images of application forms shows him as 21st Btn R Fus

I don't really understand what a fusilier is and how it fits into a battalion 

[FROGSMILE]

10 hours ago, adrian 1008 said:

Yes I should have dated this image I think this image is post WW1

He died in 1944

The LG has him commissioned Prince of Wales West Yorkshire Rgt. My handwritten notes and I think from Charles images of application forms shows him as 21st Btn R Fus

I don't really understand what a fusilier is and how it fits into a battalion 

I think we’ve established then that in the photo he’s the young officer wearing a cap cover and both cap and collar insignia of the Prince of Wales Own, West Yorkshire Regiment.  He must then subsequently have transferred to the 21st public schools battalion of the Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regiment).  I’m not sure why you earlier said it was the 34th Battalion RF.  The facial resemblance of the RE officer in later life confirms that it is indeed Athron in the group photo.

By that stage in history neither, fusilier nor light infantry designations, had any tactical meaning and had merely become signifiers of high renown.  Honorifics that denoted a certain cachet and regard for the regiment concerned.  Only the three original fusilier regiments had functioned as fusiliers during their existence, that is entirely armed with specialised, fusil firearms, in order to carry out their role. The unifying feature of the three was a white plume worn on the right side of their full dress fur caps.

Edited 6 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[adrian 1008]

Apologies for the delay.

Thanks to @PRC@FROGSMILE@Charles Fair et al for the help so far

Here is a clearer numbered image along with a chart showing the Name details etc and  probable image position based on external images and already listed Units

Please check and challenge. The next task will be to create an individual history of those who can be positively identified

Wadham College Course List of attendees.pdf

[FROGSMILE]

Adrian you have done an excellent job in matching with the data provided by Charles, and I totally understand why you’ve laid out your table in alphabetical order.  However, because the exercise at this stage is allocating names to faces laid out in a group photo via numbering chronologically from left to right, then I think the the table would be better laid out by serial number order too.  That way you get instant perception of whose name is missing.  You can always rearrange it in alphabetical order afterwards if you wish to do so. 

Edited 8 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Charles Fair]

Good job @adrian 1008.  At this stage it would now be useful to check with the TNA website to see if they have files in WO 339 or WO 374. That should provide more evidence of subsequent changes in cap badge and possibly of attendance on this course etc. 

[PRC]

To expand on @FROGSMILE post, perhaps a simple summary text list at this stage would help with identification as well as making the information searchable.

For example I note from the attachment that there is no candidate for No.1 - but in the information posted so far has any imformation such as unit been identified for him? Are we looking for a Second Lieutenant of the Royal North Somewhereshires for example

As you list is name based, that sort of information isn't going to be summarised, leading to the need to scour back through the posts to find out what has or hasn't been said. Possible for 1, but difficult to juggle 20+ individuals with no firm identification.

And if there is nothing for him, it may simply be because he has slipped down the cracks, rather than there isn't enough clues to go on.

Once the names are established I'd suggest then it would be the case to go on to bio's, otherwise the thread could become unmanageable without regular summaries of what has been established.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, PRC said:

To expand on @FROGSMILE post, perhaps a simple summary text list at this stage would help with identification as well as making the information searchable.

For example I note from the attachment that there is no candidate for No.1 - but in the information posted so far has any imformation such as unit been identified for him? Are we looking for a Second Lieutenant of the Royal North Somewhereshires for example

As you list is name based, that sort of information isn't going to be summarised, leading to the need to scour back through the posts to find out what has or hasn't been said. Possible for 1, but difficult to juggle 20+ individuals with no firm identification.

And if there is nothing for him, it may simply be because he has slipped down the cracks, rather than there isn't enough clues to go on.

Once the names are established I'd suggest then it would be the case to go on to bio's, otherwise the thread could become unmanageable without regular summaries of what has been established.

Cheers,
Peter

Yes that’s a much more logical proposal.  One additional suggestion is a column specifically for the insignia (cap and collar) that was identified directly from the photograph, just in case the regiment and unit dug up in the records diverges from that .

Edited 8 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[adrian 1008]

I m not sure i understand what you mean

Should I create a grid in landscape view with either a name and or unit?

Similar to the chart there is no name against number one as he is a DLI Officer and there are at least 6 other DLI names

I have written to the DLI museum / records office asking for images of the named Officers to attempt a match most of the others have been identified as they are either sole representatives of a unit (Highland Light Inf) or other photographic or medal evidence to confirm an identity

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, adrian 1008 said:

I m not sure i understand what you mean

Should I create a grid in landscape view with either a name and or unit?

Similar to the chart there is no name against number one as he is a DLI Officer and there are at least 6 other DLI names

I have written to the DLI museum / records office asking for images of the named Officers to attempt a match most of the others have been identified as they are either sole representatives of a unit (Highland Light Inf) or other photographic or medal evidence to confirm an identity

My suggestion is a layout with the ‘serial numbers’ (1,2,3,etc.) of each man on the extreme left vertical column.  Then the ‘cap badge’ identified in the next column, i.e. all the givens/knowns on the left.  Then names of those matched up in the next column, then units/battalions (22nd KRRC, etc), then remaining information in columns continuing left to right.  I realise that there are different ways of laying out a table and each might have benefits.  This is just a personal perspective and influenced by my experience of laying out similar tables involving personnel in the past.

NB.  I realise that unmatched names would have to sit beneath until such time as you can match them to a serial number, so it would be a work in progress.

Edited 9 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

49 minutes ago, adrian 1008 said:

I m not sure i understand what you mean

Hi Adrian,

It's your project and you are entirely free to organise the information as you see fit and is most useful to you. All I was trying to flag up is that at this point I don't feel I can add anything because there is no easy way to check whether or not what I could put forward has already been covered. I suspect I'm not the only one - some posters over the years have expressed the sentiment that they don't even begin to read threads that have more than X responses, so excluding a pool of potential responders. A summary post that then turns up in activity feeds may draw them back in.

Similarly while adding attachments can be perfectly viable, it's throwing the emphasis on the potential responder to do the work. It also means the information is not searchable either via the forum search engine or more general search engines like Google. That excludes potential responders, possibly even new to the forum, who are researching an individual and may have the key bit of information you need.

So based on what you've just said and the attachment, what I'd suggest as a summary list would be something like:-

1: 2Lt Durham Light Infantry, one from xxxx, xxxx, xxxx, xxxx, xxxx, or xxxx
2: 2Lt Walter Hamilton Maxwell. 3rd Battalion Royal West Kent Regiment, identification confirmed by \ assumed from, see post @someone 00/00/00
3: 2Lt not known

etc, etc.

And if it was me attempting to play catch up on the thread so far I'd keep that list as a separate word doc or equivalent, dated and amended with changes as they come to light. Every now and again when sufficient changes had been made I'd copy and paste the updated list into the thread.

And to be honest if I'd have been doing it from scratch as my project I'd have put the whole thing in excel and then run specific reports via macro's \ pivot tables so the information would be presented for the specific reasons why I wanted to analyse the data - by picture number \ surname, etc, etc, etc. But that shows the age I grew up in - I'm sure there are much more whizzier ways to do it now

Those are all simply suggestions - entirely understand if they don't work for you.

Cheers,
Peter

[Bordercollie]

On 05/05/2022 at 23:50, FROGSMILE said:

Didn’t you earlier in the thread say it was the 34th (Labour) Battalion Royal Fusiliers?  The 21st Battalion were a Public Schools unit.  In the photo you’ve posted he seems to wear a collar badge of the Corps of Royal Engineers, so if definitely him he seems to have transferred later on.

Yes he ended up in the Royal Engineers and has a Commonwealth War Grave in what was then Ceylon.

[Bordercollie]

He transferred in 1928 while on the Supplementary Reserve of Officers. This from the London Gazette 22nd June 1928

[Bordercollie]

On 08/05/2022 at 10:12, adrian 1008 said:

Apologies for the delay.

Thanks to @PRC@FROGSMILE@Charles Fair et al for the help so far

Here is a clearer numbered image along with a chart showing the Name details etc and  probable image position based on external images and already listed Units

Please check and challenge. The next task will be to create an individual history of those who can be positively identified

Wadham College Course List of attendees.pdf 152.7 kB · 7 downloads

Brian Hugh Morgan Tuite was commissioned into the Northumberland Fusiliers and so he would have been wearing their badges not those of the Queen Victoria Rifles in the photograph.  So unless there is another Northumberland Fusiliers officer on the course he must be number 28.

 

[adrian 1008]

@Bordercollie , Thank you for the check and challenge, you are correct No 28 Brian Hugh Morgan Tuite

[FROGSMILE]

Are we losing track of information already established, or is it me, I thought we’d covered both those points earlier in the thread?  The thing that is still confusing me a little in light of Border Collie’s latest post is the Royal Fusiliers battalion in which 2nd Lt Sydney was first commissioned.  The initial statement was that he was 34th Battalion, which when I looked it up turned out to be a Labour battalion and immediately chimed with his later location in the Labour Corps (where his unit would’ve been absorbed in 1917).  Later in the thread that was changed to the 21st Battalion, which as a Public Schools battalion didn’t seem to fit his profile at all.  Which one is correct? 

Edited 9 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[adrian 1008]

@FROGSMILEYou are correct. I need to build this spreadsheet as you and @PRC have suggested...... I m not very Excel literate so am learning hpw to along the way 

I have it all in a word doc at present but its very confusing as I have added hand written notes ! I ve never run anything like this before so steep learning curve !

Really appreciate everybody s help and advice to this new boy 

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, adrian 1008 said:

@FROGSMILEYou are correct. I need to build this spreadsheet as you and @PRC have suggested...... I m not very Excel literate so am learning hpw to along the way 

I have it all in a word doc at present but its very confusing as I have added hand written notes ! I ve never run anything like this before so steep learning curve !

Really appreciate everybody s help and advice to this new boy 

It’s not a problem.   In the end your chart has to be in a format that you are comfortable with.  I’m sure that it will work out in due course, the most helpful advice I can give is to be stringently methodical.  That way you will avoid revisiting the same things.

Edited 9 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Bordercollie]

7 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

The initial statement was that he was 34th Battalion, which when I looked it up turned out to be a Labour battalion and immediately chimed with his later location in the Labour Corps (where his unit would’ve been absorbed in 1917).  Later in the thread that was changed to the 21st Battalion, which as a Public Schools battalion didn’t seem to fit his profile at all.  Which one is correct? 

It must be the 34th Battalion. The London Gazette shows him commissioned into the West Yorkshire Regiment with seniority 8th December 1915

Then transferred from a Reserve Battalion to a Service Battalion of the West Yorkshire Regiment on 18th September 1916

 

Then transferred from a Service Battalion of the West Yorkshire Regiment to a Labour Battalion of the Royal Fusiliers on 11th October 1916.

And finally transferred to the Labour Corps on 13th April 1917