Some Officers of Kitchener's New Armies

[FROGSMILE]

Just to clarify, the seemingly sole full lieutenant who appears in subject photo (all others whose rank badges are visible are second lieutenants) is Number 13, who also appears to be wearing cap insignia of the King’s Shropshire Light Infantry.  He is notably older looking even alongside the other quite mature subalterns, a phenomenon that is rather a striking feature of the photo given that most regular army subalterns were in their late teens, or at most, very early twenties.  When scrutinising his cap badge I’d at first glance thought that he was Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry, which seemed logical given the location of the college, but as he’s missing both features of the OBLI uniform that marked the character and identity of that regiment, I had to rethink.  He has neither the gorget button and gimp cord that was uniquely favoured as a collar badge, nor the twin brown leather support braces on his Sam Browne insisted upon by the regiment.  However, he wears no collar badges at all so even the KSLI identity isn’t corroborated 100%.  Both KSLI and OBLI had very similar cap badges in outline and can be difficult to differentiate at distance, but the former was rendered in officers’ service dress bronze and the latter in dull silver when worn with khaki, which does help a little.  I hope that these factors will in due course assist with the identification of this officer.

Edited 11 April , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[adrian 1008]

Update

The archivist at Wadham has invited me (down) to go through the Wadham College magazine they are unable to copy any of it. I have also written to the archivist / curator of the DLI Museum to see if he can offer any information..........

meanwhile I have to be patient and wait...........

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, adrian 1008 said:

Update

The archivist at Wadham has invited me (down) to go through the Wadham College magazine they are unable to copy any of it. I have also written to the archivist / curator of the DLI Museum to see if he can offer any information..........

meanwhile I have to be patient and wait...........

When combined with Charles’s ongoing research it seems very promising.

[adrian 1008]

For years I ve sat and looked at those young faces and thought who are you?

Now we may be getting to the point of discovering who they were and what they did, I feel I should pass this on to somewhere where others can also see the names and perhaps identify a lost relative

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, adrian 1008 said:

For years I ve sat and looked at those young faces and thought who are you?

Now we may be getting to the point of discovering who they were and what they did, I feel I should pass this on to somewhere where others can also see the names and perhaps identify a lost relative

We’ve some way to go yet and although the prospects seem good it’s best not to anticipate too much, it will still be very challenging to identify names when there are no markings on the photo to indicate which of many courses it was.

Edited 15 April , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[adrian 1008]

Yes of course you are right, I ve had this picture in the study and every day I try to think of these young men and what they represented

[adrian 1008]

The first to be identified 

George Stuart Reay (number 4) latterly Lt Col he appears in the book Durham Pals p234/7 and on the website Durham at War shown as 22 nd Pioneer Btn

Will post the links in the morning, Thanks to Steve Shannon at the Durham Records Office

Colleagues if you could take a look and give your thoughts on the similarities

@FROGSMILE@Charles Fair @PRC thank you for your help so far  

[Charles Fair]

I've nearly finished data entry for the 9th course. No Reays so far (or anything similar).  A total or 400 forms to be entered from the 10th and 11th courses.

BUT - there is a George Cecil Reay showing on the Wadham list of the 10th course.....  Here's his form.  DLI

Edited 21 April , 2022 by Charles Fair

[adrian 1008]

Can we assume that  either Browne or Kearne  were sick on the day of the photo then we have 49 

Tentative : No 13 is Lt AGW Browne the only KOSLI and listed in the medal rolls from ancestry as a Lt 

                    No 42 is MJVB Smyth the only R Ir Rifles later > RAF 

                     No 5 is G Mc M Betty Bedfordshire Rgt later Captain

 

Edited 22 April , 2022 by adrian 1008
further info

[FROGSMILE]

12 hours ago, adrian 1008 said:

Can we assume that  either Browne or Kearne  were sick on the day of the photo then we have 49 

Tentative : No 13 is Lt AGW Browne the only KOSLI and listed in the medal rolls from ancestry as a Lt 

                    No 42 is MJVB Smyth the only R Ir Rifles later > RAF 

                     No 5 is G Mc M Betty Bedfordshire Rgt later Captain

 

The prospects seem good so far. It would be quite unremarkable for one or two officers to miss a course photo for some unforeseeable reason (injury, sick, etc.).

Edited 22 April , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

8 hours ago, adrian 1008 said:

The first to be identified 

George Stuart Reay (number 4) latterly Lt Col he appears in the book Durham Pals p234/7 and on the website Durham at War shown as 22 nd Pioneer Btn

Will post the links in the morning, Thanks to Steve Shannon at the Durham Records Office

Colleagues if you could take a look and give your thoughts on the similarities

@FROGSMILE@Charles Fair @PRC thank you for your help so far  

Well spotted, I think that you’ve correctly identified Reay as number 4. 

[Bordercollie]

Comparing the names and initials on the Wadham College list with an index of officers files held by the National Archives produces single matches for 29 names, multiple matches for 14 names and no matches for the remaining 8.  The single matches are listed in the first attachment and the multiple matches are listed in the second attachment.  Possibly some of the multiple matches can be instantly discounted, for example the John Cook in the RGA, but I have included them all so that even remote possibilities are listed. 

 

Wadham List.pdf

Wadham Possibles.pdf

[adrian 1008]

Thats a great help Boder Collie Thank you, now to match !

[adrian 1008]

Morning All

I m running into confusion here. Charles image /document showing Officers residing in Wadham College Nov -Dec 1915 

Would there just be one course on at a time ? and so is it reasonable to assume the names correlate to the original picture.

So far with the assistance of you all we can positively identify 12 individuals, only one so far has an independent verification ie appears in other images in books etc.

I have written to DLI Museum again asking if they can verify any more DLI members. 

The single ribbon worn by No45 is a QSA thanks @RNCVR

Any thoughts on how to progress

[Charles Fair]

2 hours ago, adrian 1008 said:

Morning All

I m running into confusion here. Charles image /document showing Officers residing in Wadham College Nov -Dec 1915 

Would there just be one course on at a time ? and so is it reasonable to assume the names correlate to the original picture.

So far with the assistance of you all we can positively identify 12 individuals, only one so far has an independent verification ie appears in other images in books etc.

I have written to DLI Museum again asking if they can verify any more DLI members. 

The single ribbon worn by No45 is a QSA thanks @RNCVR

Any thoughts on how to progress

Yes, only one course at a time.

B Coy had become bigger for the 10th and 11th courses with the addition of a second platoon in Keble. The Wadham platoon, formerly 3 platoon for courses 1-9 now became 4 platoon for these final courses.

if you can bear with me I will post the registration forms for the platoon which gives the units they were gazetted into. Will save you much guesswork.

Are we 100% certain it’s the same Reay?  The chap I posted above has a different middle initial from the Reay posted earlier.  

[charlie962]

On 22/04/2022 at 01:00, adrian 1008 said:

George Stuart Reay

Surely this is George Cecil Reay. Durham record office have many photos of him incl as a 2nd Lt of the 22DLI.

"Catalogue Item - Durham Record Office" http://www.durhamrecordoffice.org.uk/article/11111?SearchType=Param&Variations=N&Keywords=d%2Fdli+7%2F602%2F16(254)&ImagesOnly=Y&ItemID=680370

[FROGSMILE]

5 hours ago, charlie962 said:

Surely this is George Cecil Reay. Durham record office have many photos of him incl as a 2nd Lt of the 22DLI.

"Catalogue Item - Durham Record Office" http://www.durhamrecordoffice.org.uk/article/11111?SearchType=Param&Variations=N&Keywords=d%2Fdli+7%2F602%2F16(254)&ImagesOnly=Y&ItemID=680370

That would explain why so many of the names from the other Reay’s course are not matching with the regimental badges identified Charlie.  Adrian had been wrestling with that and I don’t know where he’d reached. 

Edited 24 April , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[adrian 1008]

Working on the theory of Unit identification, @FROGSMILE names  @Charles Fairand the list above @Bordercolliei believe the following to be :

2  Walter Hamilton Maxwell 

4  George Cecil Reay  

7  Samuel William Cherry

9   Thomas Archibald Hall

14 Paul Dominic Wilmot

19  Malcolm Murray Lyon

21  Arthur Winch

22   John Balhatchet Slee

27  Vernon Robertson Lipp

42   Matthew John Vincent Blood Smyth

45   Raymond Stuart Tanner

46   Richard Henry Vernon

I have written to the DLI Museum with a list of DLI Officers asking for any images of those named, depending on the results I will then contact other museums/ family trees looking to verify names with images. My difficulty is linking the list, for example on that course at Wadham is an Alan Wynne Apperley, listed as Royal Engineers....... There is no RE badge, likewise Connaught Rangers, Suffolk Rgt etc etc

Is my process flawed ? I must be patient and wait for Charles to complete his project.... 

[FROGSMILE]

21 minutes ago, adrian 1008 said:

Working on the theory of Unit identification, @FROGSMILE names  @Charles Fairand the list above @Bordercolliei believe the following to be :

2  Walter Hamilton Maxwell 

4  George Cecil Reay  

7  Samuel William Cherry

9   Thomas Archibald Hall

14 Paul Dominic Wilmot

19  Malcolm Murray Lyon

21  Arthur Winch

22   John Balhatchet Slee

27  Vernon Robertson Lipp

42   Matthew John Vincent Blood Smyth

45   Raymond Stuart Tanner

46   Richard Henry Vernon

I have written to the DLI Museum with a list of DLI Officers asking for any images of those named, depending on the results I will then contact other museums/ family trees looking to verify names with images. My difficulty is linking the list, for example on that course at Wadham is an Alan Wynne Apperley, listed as Royal Engineers....... There is no RE badge, likewise Connaught Rangers, Suffolk Rgt etc etc

Is my process flawed ? I must be patient and wait for Charles to complete his project.... 

Bear in mind that the missing men might have commenced the course, but then been dropped (as the term was) via injury, or a variety of other reasons.  The officers in your photo are wearing regimental insignia, including buttons, which suggests it was taken at the end rather than at the start.  Most officer cadets seemed to start their courses either, with a college/academy cap badge, or a simple white band around their caps, often with just the number (in cloth) of their OCB on the front.  All this suggests that your photo is one taken at, or close to the point of graduation. 

Edited 25 April , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[adrian 1008]

is there any merit in searching London Gazette to ascertain commissioning dates ?

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, adrian 1008 said:

is there any merit in searching London Gazette to ascertain commissioning dates ?

That would be useful evidence, although not necessarily 100% concrete once you factor in leave and other imponderables.  

[adrian 1008]

Thank you. Based on Frogsmile' s encyclopaedic knowledge a simple ancestry search AGW Browne (No 13) guessing a DOB of 1893 and lived in Shropshire turns up 

[FROGSMILE]

5 minutes ago, adrian 1008 said:

Thank you. Based on Frogsmile' s encyclopaedic knowledge a simple ancestry search AGW Browne (No 13) guessing a DOB of 1893 and lived in Shropshire turns up 

That looks promising, and a MC holder to boot!

[Bordercollie]

52 minutes ago, adrian 1008 said:

on that course at Wadham is an Alan Wynne Apperley, listed as Royal Engineers....... There is no RE badge, likewise Connaught Rangers, Suffolk Rgt etc etc

. 

Remember that the corps given in the National Archives index of officer's files will be the last corps in which the officer served.  So Alan Wynne Apperley started out in the DLI and later transferrred to RE.  MIC image courtesy of Ancestry

 

[FROGSMILE]

2 minutes ago, Bordercollie said:

Remember that the corps given in the National Archives index of officer's files will be the last corps in which the officer served.  So Alan Wynne Apperley started out in the DLI and later transferrred to RE.  MIC image courtesy of Ancestry

Brilliant stuff, that’s bang on and as discussed with Adrian via his query by PM.  It’s all comings together now.

Edited 25 April , 2022 by FROGSMILE