Some Officers of Kitchener's New Armies

[adrian 1008]

I think I need to create an excel spreadsheet to keep this all together as I m rolling between posts and colleagues will want it all in one location

[Charles Fair]

43 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Bear in mind that the missing men might have commenced the course, but then been dropped (as the term was) via injury, or a variety of other reasons.  The officers in your photo are wearing regimental insignia, including buttons, which suggests it was taken at the end rather than at the start.  Most officer cadets seemed to start their courses either, with a college/academy cap badge, or a simple white band around their caps, often with just the number (in cloth) of their OCB on the front.  All this suggests that your photo is one taken at, or close to the point of graduation. 

Just wanted to correct this point. The Schools of Instruction were post-commissioning courses, so these officers had already been commissioned by the time they had got to Wadham. In many cases it seems to have been a few days or a month before the course, though some has been commissioned months earlier. 
 

The OCBs hadn’t been invented at this point, so no white bands etc!

[adrian 1008]

Thank you Charles. Would the candidates have volunteered for this course, or would it have been part of their Officer development ?

GC Reay 's application is dated 31/08/1915. How long was the Course, apologies if its been answered already

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Charles Fair said:

Just wanted to correct this point. The Schools of Instruction were post-commissioning courses, so these officers had already been commissioned by the time they had got to Wadham. In many cases it seems to have been a few days or a month before the course, though some has been commissioned months earlier. 
 

The OCBs hadn’t been invented at this point, so no white bands etc!

Thank you Charles, that’s understood.  An early stage in the development of officer training then. Reflecting on that it’s interested me that these young men must largely have been selected on the basis of their education and being perceived as the ‘right sort’, because those that had some small soldiering experience seem mostly to have done so only as privates and thus would have had little opportunity to actually demonstrate specific leadership qualities.  On that basis, a kind of implicit trust if you will, it seems likely that some would have borne out the faith invested in them, but others not.  It wasn’t a particularly methodical or scientific way of doing things. Granting a commission before being proven must have been unsustainable and in part at least led to the later changes?

Edited 25 April , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Charles Fair]

1 hour ago, adrian 1008 said:

Thank you Charles. Would the candidates have volunteered for this course, or would it have been part of their Officer development ?

GC Reay 's application is dated 31/08/1915. How long was the Course, apologies if its been answered already

I think they were probably nominated.  I think a number of places were allocated to each brigade in the UK and the Bde Comd/unit CO nominated them.  I dont have chapter and verse on this yet.

The course was 5 weeks. I posted the dates in this post, which implies a break for Xmas: 

 

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, Charles Fair said:

I think they were probably nominated.  I think a number of places were allocated to each brigade in the UK and the Bde Comd/unit CO nominated them.  I dont have chapter and verse on this yet.

The course was 5 weeks. I posted the dates in this post, which implies a break for Xmas: 

 

Where was their initial commission earned Charles (i.e. training establishment), before attending the Wadham course?  Given their initial battalions it presumably wasn’t at Sandhurst, or have I missed something?

Edited 25 April , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Charles Fair]

47 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Thank you Charles, that’s understood.  An early stage in the development of officer training then. Reflecting on that it’s interested me that these young men must largely have been selected on the basis of their education and being perceived as the ‘right sort’, because those that had some small soldiering experience seem mostly to have done so only as privates and thus would have had little opportunity to actually demonstrate specific leadership qualities.  On that basis, a kind of implicit trust if you will, it seems likely that some would have borne out the faith invested in them, but others not.  It wasn’t a particularly methodical or scientific way of doing things. Granting a commission before being proven must have been unsustainable and in part at least led to the later changes?

A good secondary education seems to have been the main requirement.  I'm finding a far higher proportion of men from minor grammar schools, technical schools, higher grade schools etc. passing through this School of Instruction in 1915 than I was expecting.  (Lots of number crunching to be done when I have finished data entry.)

Yes it was unstainable, and I suspect there were more 'round pegs in square holes' than has been acknowledged.  I think there was a problem of 'inefficient officers', albeit a minority, but it is hard to quantify. I have found a few who were asked to resign in 1915/16 for this reason and suspect this applied to something in the order of a (low) few thousand. I'm going to look at the files of those who scored low in the exams for this School of Instruction and see if that tells me anything.

[adrian 1008]

Thank you Charles apologies !

A search of the London Gazette for Samuel William Cherry

 

London Gazette Dec 1915 Samuel William Cherry.pdf

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Charles Fair said:

A good secondary education seems to have been the main requirement.  I'm finding a far higher proportion of men from minor grammar schools, technical schools, higher grade schools etc. passing through this School of Instruction in 1915 than I was expecting.  (Lots of number crunching to be done when I have finished data entry.)

Yes it was unstainable, and I suspect there were more 'round pegs in square holes' than has been acknowledged.  I think there was a problem of 'inefficient officers', albeit a minority, but it is hard to quantify. I have found a few who were asked to resign in 1915/16 for this reason and suspect this applied to something in the order of a (low) few thousand. I'm going to look at the files of those who scored low in the exams for this School of Instruction and see if that tells me anything.

Thank you Charles, I do find this aspect particularly interesting, in part because of my own involvement in officer training at various stages, but also because of how it evolved during WW1 due to the pressures of supply and demand in the unforgiving business of attritional, industrial scale warfare.  Feeding the gaping maw as it were. 

Edited 25 April , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Charles Fair]

2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Where was their initial commission earned (i.e. training establishment) before attending the Wadham course?  Given their initial battalions it presumably wasn’t at Sandhurst, or have I missed something?

They would have been offered a commission by the CO or perhaps Bde Comd of the unit they were going to.  A handful were sent back from active service to take up a commission in an UK based SR or NA battalion, but most were going from the ranks of a UK based unit to take up one of those commissions in the SR or NA.  I think many moved within the battalions in their brigade, division or Command i.e. "Lt-Col Bloggs of the 9th (S) Blankshires needs 3 platoon commanders" and those men were sourced from other battalions in the formation or Command or Regiment.  Analysis should hep to clarify this.

[FROGSMILE]

24 minutes ago, Charles Fair said:

They would have been offered a commission by the CO or perhaps Bde Comd of the unit they were going to.  A handful were sent back from active service to take up a commission in an UK based SR or NA battalion, but most were going from the ranks of a UK based unit to take up one of those commissions in the SR or NA.  I think many moved within the battalions in their brigade, division or Command i.e. "Lt-Col Bloggs of the 9th (S) Blankshires needs 3 platoon commanders" and those men were sourced from other battalions in the formation or Command or Regiment.  Analysis should hep to clarify this.

Thank you Charles, so no initial commissioning course whatsoever, but a subsequent leadership/tactical skills course at Wadham.  I had heard/read about that before, but quite some time ago now.  I’m unsurprised that it was a short-lived policy and will be most interested to read the outcome of your research once you complete it.

Edited 25 April , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[adrian 1008]

I should have spotted this earlier ! Is there any significance to so many appearing in the same edition

London Gazette Dec 1915 Waler Hamilton Maxwell.pdf

[Charles Fair]

15 minutes ago, adrian 1008 said:

I should have spotted this earlier ! Is there any significance to so many appearing in the same edition

London Gazette Dec 1915 Waler Hamilton Maxwell.pdf 109.58 kB · 0 downloads

The course started on 8 December, so I would expect a good proportion to have been gazetted shortly beforehand.  The same pattern applies in the other courses.  Well spotted!

[adrian 1008]

Thank you Charles.

I thought I had run into a problem as there are two Royal Lancaster Rgt (amongst other Units!) shown at No 7 and No 45.

No 45 is wearing a single medal ribbon, I thought was a DCM, @RNCVR felt it was a QSA....... He s correct as No 45 is Raymond Stuart Tanner Born 1880 and appears on the QSA  medal roll South African Constabulary with clasps OFS CC TV & SA 1902. (Ancestry)

He enters France 12/07/1916 (MIC Ancestry)

He is KIA 31/08/1916 serving with 3rd Btn

Thank you RNCVR for your perceptiveness!

 

[RNCVR]

I was happy to be of assistance Adrian, his ribbon was just clear enough to make out, it's the orange in the QSA ribbin that helps ID it.

[adrian 1008]

your eyes are much better than mine!

No 21 Is one Arthur Winch Devonshire Rgt  He has a pension card (Ancestry) showing a widow Margaret Lucy

But I cant find him on Commonwealth War Grave database 

what am I missing ?

[adrian 1008]

Carrying on ...... Harold Cecil Round DSO MC MiD Rifle Brigade poss candidates 11,24,29.34 He was KIA 24/08/1917

Here is an image from ancestry, can we fit it to any of the above, or is there a better image 

He was born Godstone Surrey  07/05/1896 NOK Mother he was attached 9th Btn

Edited 26 April , 2022 by adrian 1008
wrong county

[charlie962]

30 minutes ago, adrian 1008 said:

can we fit it

24 looks good. Glasses in original photo but same mouth.

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

24 looks good. Glasses in original photo but same mouth.

Yes, I’d say he’s 24 too.  Good spot Charlie.

[adrian 1008]

Thank you No 24 is potentially  Harold Cecil Round later Capt DSO, MC MiD Rifle  Brigade

[Bordercollie]

13 hours ago, adrian 1008 said:

your eyes are much better than mine!

No 21 Is one Arthur Winch Devonshire Rgt  He has a pension card (Ancestry) showing a widow Margaret Lucy

But I cant find him on Commonwealth War Grave database 

what am I missing ?

 

He died on 6th October 1939 after the cut off date (31st August 1921) for CWGC commemoration of World War 1 casualties.  His widow would have been entitled to a pension provided that his death was attributable to his war service.

Probate register entry courtesy of Ancestry

[mrfrank]

Harold Cecil Round from image of Marlborough House B2 Rugby Team taken 1913. It’s definitely him I’d say. 
 

[adrian 1008]

thank you, yes He s on the spreadsheet !

[adrian 1008]

57 minutes ago, Bordercollie said:

He died on 6th October 1939 after the cut off date (31st August 1921) for CWGC commemoration of World War 1 casualties.  His widow would have been entitled to a pension provided that his death was attributable to his war service.

Probate register entry courtesy of Ancestry

Would his wife have taken on his pension on his death, or would he have received a pension on leaving the Army, I assumed he died as his wife was named on the pension, another point learnt !

[adrian 1008]

Update :

No 10 Alfred Herbert Naish. KRRC 20th Btn Pioneers Thank you @FROGSMILE for your attn to detail. he wears the collar badges of the 20th Btn

In addition he has two medal ribbons. QSA & KSA.

A Naish was a Sgt in 2nd Btn (The Buffs ) E Kent Rgt His QSA had clasps for Paardeberg. Dreifontain. Relief of Kimberley Transvaal. Natal.

His KSA clasps SA 1901 & 1902 Discharged home as Time Expired

Born 1877 KIA 13/06/16 Age 39 came from Beaconsfield