FROGSMILE Posted 8 April , 2022 Share Posted 8 April , 2022 (edited) On 08/04/2022 at 15:54, charlie962 said: I note no13 has two pips on each cuff. Staff or ? No I don’t think he is Staff, charlie, as he’s sat in with everyone else and traditionally instructional staff are seated centrally and very obviously front and centre. However, he must have greater (antedated) formal seniority to wear two pips, and thus have some previous service, perhaps in one of the Reserve of Officers lists. If it had been a long time since he’d last served then he may have been obliged to join the course as a means of updating him to contemporary developments. Edited 9 April , 2022 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrian 1008 Posted 8 April , 2022 Author Share Posted 8 April , 2022 (edited) 41 minutes ago, charlie962 said: @adrian 1008 it was you who said the frame said OTU but I've not seen a pic of that. Is there anything else on the back of the frame or the back of the photo mount? The frame was a simple black wooden frame that was broken there was no glass although there had been. The frame went in the bin as it was broken, not repairable and had woodworm holes. We have some old furniture so it wasnt coming in the house. The image has inverted There is a white cardboard rectangular border glued to the photo with an oval cut out and in italic coloured writing Officers Training Corps Wadham College underneath in the centre in colour is the Wadham crest. this appears cut out /handmade and stuck on. there is nothing on the back Could somebody rotate the image for me Edited 8 April , 2022 by adrian 1008 further info Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 8 April , 2022 Share Posted 8 April , 2022 16 minutes ago, adrian 1008 said: writing Officers Training Corps Ah, thanks. So OTU was a mistake. Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helpjpl Posted 8 April , 2022 Share Posted 8 April , 2022 JP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 8 April , 2022 Share Posted 8 April , 2022 1 hour ago, Acknown said: For what it's worth, this convoluted idea bore no fruit. Though I came up with several photos, none fitted. Sadly, several on the R of H died on 01 Jul 16. Acknown I suspect that they could be from any of the colleges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrian 1008 Posted 8 April , 2022 Author Share Posted 8 April , 2022 27 minutes ago, charlie962 said: Ah, thanks. So OTU was a mistake. Charlie Yes my apologies if I have mislead, my inexperience when I joined Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 8 April , 2022 Share Posted 8 April , 2022 2 hours ago, adrian 1008 said: Yes my apologies if I have mislead, my inexperience when I joined No apologies needed. I'm just trying to narrow down if this was really OTC pure or OTC part of an Officer Cadet Bn, ie pre or post Feb 1916. Have to say I'm not sure. What do others think? Charlie This may be a sidetrack but here is a cricket team of Wadham Cadets in May 1916. They would presumably be in the first of the OCB courses? Lelen, Smethurst, Barber, Booth, Lewis, Fraser, Richardson, Bland, Thwaites, Wolfindale and Cadet Sgt Marston. I tried following up the two more unusual names but no luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 8 April , 2022 Share Posted 8 April , 2022 (edited) On 07/04/2022 at 20:01, PRC said: Image courtesy https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/119761706 Cheers, Peter I may, or may not, be able to supply candidate names for officers commissioned into 2nd and 7th Bns. Royal Sussex Regiment, depending on the questions below. Nine of the names shown in the listing above have two dates; one presumably is the date of commissioning. Is the second the date of joining the Bn.? If so, what would cause the delay? Regards, JMB EDIT: The officers in the photo are not wearing the white cap band of officer cadets, but are wearing regimental cap badges so they have presumably already been commissioned into their regiments?? Edited 9 April , 2022 by JMB1943 Add info. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMB1943 Posted 9 April , 2022 Share Posted 9 April , 2022 OCT '15 JUL '16 Burdon, 2/Lt. Survived Atkinson, L. De B. 2/Lt. KiA Welsh, 2/Lt. Survived Young, N.L. 2/Lt. KiA Mercier, A. 2/Lt. Survived Blew, H.B. 2/Lt. Survived ? King, P.D.A. 2/Lt. KiA Harvey, R.D.'A. 2/Lt. KiA Thompson, 2/Lt. Survived Johnson, E.C. 2/Lt. Survived Blaikie, S.G. 2/Lt. Survived TOTAL 5 Gould 2/Lt. Survived AUG '16 Macdonald 2/Lt. Survived Robbins 2/Lt. Survived Turner 2/Lt. *** King 2/Lt. Survived Kenelly, D. McK. 2/Lt. Survived TOTAL 2 Chad T.E. 2/Lt. Survived SEP '16 Atkinson 2/Lt. Brading, N.B. 2/Lt. Survived Hoskins 2/Lt. Alexander, J.R.W. 2/Lt. Survived Mason 2/Lt. Clarke, B. 2/Lt. Survived Owen 2/Lt. Clarke, C.T. 2/Lt. KiA Collins 2/Lt. Weber-Browne, A.M. 2/Lt. Survived Cook 2/Lt. Collins, C.A. 2/Lt. Survived TOTAL 17 Reade, C.L.R. 2/Lt. KiA NOV '15 Burdett, J.T. 2/Lt. Survived Smith 2/Lt. Survived Coleman, H.E.E.V. 2/Lt. KiA Sainton, F.C. 2/Lt. KiA Forder, C.F. 2/Lt. KiA Stokes, C.S. 2/Lt. Survived West, F.A. 2/Lt. Survived Dadswell, 2/Lt. Survived Humphreys, W.G. 2/Lt. KiA Taylor 2/Lt. Survived Marten-Smith, C.E. (T)2/Lt. KiA Parrack, L. 2/Lt. Survived Newman, J.C. FitzG. 2/Lt. Survived Prince, T. 2/Lt. Survived Barfoot, W.F. 2/Lt. Survived TOTAL 7 Gardiner, A. 2/Lt. Survived DEC '15 Gardner, W.A. 2/Lt. Survived Kenward, R. 2/Lt. KiA TOTAL 17 Brown 2/Lt. Survived OCT - NOV '16 Osmaston, R.S. 2/Lt. KiA King, P.D.A. 2/Lt. KiA Jackson 2/Lt. Survived Deane, A.R. 2/Lt. DoW TOTAL 4 Ball, A.H. 2/Lt. KiA JAN - MAR '16 Pierssene, F.A. 2/Lt. KiA Bayne, 2/Lt. Survived Deane, B.F. 2/Lt. Survived Goshawk, C.E. 2/Lt. Survived Hinds, H.F. 2/Lt. *** TOTAL 2 Ormrod, G. 2/Lt. KiA APR '16 Williams, H.C. 2/Lt. *** Jaques, V.H. 2/Lt. Survived Dolleymore, E. 2/Lt. *** TOTAL 1 Robbins, A. 2/Lt. *** MAY '16 Stacey, F.F.B. 2/Lt. Survived Eccles, G.J. 2/Lt. Survived Wathen, G.W.D. 2/Lt. *** Adams, J. 2/Lt. KiA TOTAL 12 Skipworth, B.W. 2/Lt. KiA DEC '16 TOTAL 3 Terry, H. 2/Lt. Survived JUN '16 Hutchings, A.G.A. 2/Lt. *** Martineau, G.D. 2/Lt.* Lt. Survived Barnes, H.C. 2/Lt. KiA Wright, B.C. 2/Lt. KiA TOTAL 3 TOTAL 2 The listing above is of 2/Lts who joined the 2nd Bn RSR in the period October 1, 1915 to December 31, 1916. Note that I have been unable to determine a definitive fate for some, but the listing was prepared some years ago for a different purpose, and I did not at that time pursue all of the sources of inquiry (Ancestry, CWGC, SDGW etc) for all of them. With a grand total of 70+, it would be quite the task to identify photos #14 & #48, even if the time period covered here contains the two names. Regards, JMB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrian 1008 Posted 9 April , 2022 Author Share Posted 9 April , 2022 Thank you for this..... perhaps another tack may be to try and get copies of the Wadham magazine for each term from 1914 >1916/17 that may yield some pictures perhaps, I will ask the archivist to check on some Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 9 April , 2022 Share Posted 9 April , 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, JMB1943 said: OCT '15 JUL '16 Burdon, 2/Lt. Survived Atkinson, L. De B. 2/Lt. KiA Welsh, 2/Lt. Survived Young, N.L. 2/Lt. KiA Mercier, A. 2/Lt. Survived Blew, H.B. 2/Lt. Survived ? King, P.D.A. 2/Lt. KiA Harvey, R.D.'A. 2/Lt. KiA Thompson, 2/Lt. Survived Johnson, E.C. 2/Lt. Survived Blaikie, S.G. 2/Lt. Survived TOTAL 5 Gould 2/Lt. Survived AUG '16 Macdonald 2/Lt. Survived Robbins 2/Lt. Survived Turner 2/Lt. *** King 2/Lt. Survived Kenelly, D. McK. 2/Lt. Survived TOTAL 2 Chad T.E. 2/Lt. Survived SEP '16 Atkinson 2/Lt. Brading, N.B. 2/Lt. Survived Hoskins 2/Lt. Alexander, J.R.W. 2/Lt. Survived Mason 2/Lt. Clarke, B. 2/Lt. Survived Owen 2/Lt. Clarke, C.T. 2/Lt. KiA Collins 2/Lt. Weber-Browne, A.M. 2/Lt. Survived Cook 2/Lt. Collins, C.A. 2/Lt. Survived TOTAL 17 Reade, C.L.R. 2/Lt. KiA NOV '15 Burdett, J.T. 2/Lt. Survived Smith 2/Lt. Survived Coleman, H.E.E.V. 2/Lt. KiA Sainton, F.C. 2/Lt. KiA Forder, C.F. 2/Lt. KiA Stokes, C.S. 2/Lt. Survived West, F.A. 2/Lt. Survived Dadswell, 2/Lt. Survived Humphreys, W.G. 2/Lt. KiA Taylor 2/Lt. Survived Marten-Smith, C.E. (T)2/Lt. KiA Parrack, L. 2/Lt. Survived Newman, J.C. FitzG. 2/Lt. Survived Prince, T. 2/Lt. Survived Barfoot, W.F. 2/Lt. Survived TOTAL 7 Gardiner, A. 2/Lt. Survived DEC '15 Gardner, W.A. 2/Lt. Survived Kenward, R. 2/Lt. KiA TOTAL 17 Brown 2/Lt. Survived OCT - NOV '16 Osmaston, R.S. 2/Lt. KiA King, P.D.A. 2/Lt. KiA Jackson 2/Lt. Survived Deane, A.R. 2/Lt. DoW TOTAL 4 Ball, A.H. 2/Lt. KiA JAN - MAR '16 Pierssene, F.A. 2/Lt. KiA Bayne, 2/Lt. Survived Deane, B.F. 2/Lt. Survived Goshawk, C.E. 2/Lt. Survived Hinds, H.F. 2/Lt. *** TOTAL 2 Ormrod, G. 2/Lt. KiA APR '16 Williams, H.C. 2/Lt. *** Jaques, V.H. 2/Lt. Survived Dolleymore, E. 2/Lt. *** TOTAL 1 Robbins, A. 2/Lt. *** MAY '16 Stacey, F.F.B. 2/Lt. Survived Eccles, G.J. 2/Lt. Survived Wathen, G.W.D. 2/Lt. *** Adams, J. 2/Lt. KiA TOTAL 12 Skipworth, B.W. 2/Lt. KiA DEC '16 TOTAL 3 Terry, H. 2/Lt. Survived JUN '16 Hutchings, A.G.A. 2/Lt. *** Martineau, G.D. 2/Lt.* Lt. Survived Barnes, H.C. 2/Lt. KiA Wright, B.C. 2/Lt. KiA TOTAL 3 TOTAL 2 The listing above is of 2/Lts who joined the 2nd Bn RSR in the period October 1, 1915 to December 31, 1916. Note that I have been unable to determine a definitive fate for some, but the listing was prepared some years ago for a different purpose, and I did not at that time pursue all of the sources of inquiry (Ancestry, CWGC, SDGW etc) for all of them. With a grand total of 70+, it would be quite the task to identify photos #14 & #48, even if the time period covered here contains the two names. Regards, JMB JMB, If all those you’ve listed went to regular battalions I’m not sure that they’ll match with the photo, which appears to show officers undergoing the more hasty training made necessary by Kitchener’s New Armies. Edited 9 April , 2022 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 9 April , 2022 Share Posted 9 April , 2022 22 minutes ago, adrian 1008 said: Thank you for this..... perhaps another tack may be to try and get copies of the Wadham magazine for each term from 1914 >1916/17 that may yield some pictures perhaps, I will ask the archivist to check on some Something close to home like that seems more likely to elicit results, I agree. Without any signatures as there have been in similar photos posted here it’s a very difficult challenge to identify officers purely on the basis of their regimental insignia, especially when we have no definitive date for the sitting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrian 1008 Posted 9 April , 2022 Author Share Posted 9 April , 2022 Whats the biggest selling paper in Oxford (shire) I could send them a copy asking for any further info have it published on their website and in print Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 9 April , 2022 Share Posted 9 April , 2022 (edited) 33 minutes ago, adrian 1008 said: Whats the biggest selling paper in Oxford (shire) I could send them a copy asking for any further info have it published on their website and in print It used to be the Oxfordshire Guardian, but that’s closed in recent years and it’s now the Oxford Times which has quite a number of additional subsidiaries, such as the Oxford Mail and Bicester Advertiser. The publisher is NEWSQUEST Media Group. See: https://www.dailyinfo.co.uk/oxford/guide/local-media Edited 9 April , 2022 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Fair Posted 9 April , 2022 Share Posted 9 April , 2022 Coming late to this thread, thanks to @PRCfor flagging for me. This appears to be related to something I am working on at this very moment for my PhD. If your collective wisdom above has pinned it to late 1915/early 1916 then I would suggest that this is a course at the Oxford University School of Instruction which was run by OUOTC between January 1915 and March 1916. It was a post commissioning course and was 4 weeks long, extended to 5 weeks in late 1915. I wrote about these schools in this thread: Wadham hosted No. 3 platoon of B Company of the School of Instruction. This only happened at Wadham from the 6th course onwards. Dates of courses were as follows: 6th course 14/06/1915 10/07/1915 7th course 16/07/1915 13/08/1915 8th course 30/08/1915 02/10/1915 9th course 08/10/1915 12/11/1915 10th course 08/12/1915 20/01/1916 11th course 26/01/1916 07/03/1916 The good news for this picture is that the records of B Company of the School of Instruction are held at the Bodleian as part of the OUOTC archives. There is a file for each course which contains a registration form completed on arrival by each attending officer. This form gives unit into which commissioned, education, occupation, address, prior military experience. I am, at this very moment, entering data from these registration forms (c. 1,500 in total) into a spreadsheet. So far I have got up to the end of the 8th course. I think it is quite likely we will be able to identify from the capbadges and headcount as to which course it may be. It is unlikely to be the 9th course as the Wadham platoon only had 37 officers. Here is the list from that course. The 6th, 7th and 8th courses all had 50 or 51 officers. If you can bear with me a few weeks until I have finished data entry for the 9th, 10th and 11th courses I will be able to do some analysis of the units into which gazetted to see if one of these matches the capbadges in the photo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Fair Posted 9 April , 2022 Share Posted 9 April , 2022 (edited) (PS I don't know why the picture in the above post has turned upside down. Its not in the one I took.) I have a chapter on the evolution of the OCB system out of the OTCs and Schools of Instruction in the newly published (Feb 2022) volume of essays edited by Spencer Jones, 1917: The Darkest Year. Edited 9 April , 2022 by Charles Fair incompleted post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 9 April , 2022 Share Posted 9 April , 2022 (edited) That’s excellent news Charles. The total in the photo is one less than is numbered due to an inadvertent duplication (so 48 rather than 49). All the officers on your list are annotated under the single heading of Mister, which is correct for all subaltern officers, but it might assist you when doing your analysis that just one of the officers in subject photo is a full lieutenant. This implies antedated seniority as a result of either, prior service and a place on one of the Reserve Officers lists, or a special arrangement for some other, unknown reason to fit the officer concerned for a specified task. Edited 9 April , 2022 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 9 April , 2022 Share Posted 9 April , 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 9 April , 2022 Share Posted 9 April , 2022 2 hours ago, Charles Fair said: Coming late to this thread, thanks to @PRCfor flagging for me. This appears to be related to something I am working on at this very moment for my PhD. If your collective wisdom above has pinned it to late 1915/early 1916 then I would suggest that this is a course at the Oxford University School of Instruction which was run by OUOTC between January 1915 and March 1916. I think it is your detailed knowledge that is making sense of our ramblings. Excellent direction. Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrian 1008 Posted 9 April , 2022 Author Share Posted 9 April , 2022 Charles. Thank you for your contribution, I feel it is a very positive step forward. If my picture is of any use in your Thesis please use it with my blessing Regards Adrian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrian 1008 Posted 10 April , 2022 Author Share Posted 10 April , 2022 17 hours ago, Charles Fair said: you can bear with me a few weeks until I have finished data entry for the 9th, 10th and 11th courses I will be able to do some analysis of the units into which gazetted to see if one of these matches the capbadges in the photo. Charles a further identification point perhaps to consider is No45 Back row moustache to the left of chap wearing glasses appears to be wearing a DCM ribbon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adrian 1008 Posted 10 April , 2022 Author Share Posted 10 April , 2022 frogsmile good morning, Im trying to PM you but message says you are unable to receive messages Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 10 April , 2022 Share Posted 10 April , 2022 2 hours ago, adrian 1008 said: frogsmile good morning, Im trying to PM you but message says you are unable to receive messages Sorry my mailbox must be full, I’ll have to do some weeding. Try again this evening please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Fair Posted 10 April , 2022 Share Posted 10 April , 2022 (edited) 10 hours ago, adrian 1008 said: Charles a further identification point perhaps to consider is No45 Back row moustache to the left of chap wearing glasses appears to be wearing a DCM ribbon Adrian, thanks for flagging. The only DCM winner that I have come across on the forms so far is a man on the 7th course 2/Lt DT Jones who was gazetted into 9th DCLI - see form attached. He was in the Wadham platoon. Thanks for the offer of the use of the photo. In fact it would be most useful to illustrate the follow-up book. I only have two very poor photos of Schools on Instruction course from the British Newspaper Archive. Frogsmile, thanks for confirming is is 48 men. Usually a couple did not complete because of sickness. I'll be another month or so of data entry, then I will analyse the courses by Regiment into which gazetted Edited 10 April , 2022 by Charles Fair Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 10 April , 2022 Share Posted 10 April , 2022 (edited) I still keep plodding along trying to think of differents angles to crack this one, and todays was picking up on the banner Wadham College Officer Training Corps and the idea that there might have a connection to the college staff and student. To try and address it I took a look at the Oxford University Roll of Service. First of all here's a few numbers on the size of officer training from pages 10 and 11 of the introduction to that book. Image courtesy https://archive.org/details/oxforduniversity00univuoft/page/x/mode/2up?q=Wadham Wading through the Wadham College section, there appears to be only one individual who served with the King's Own (Royal Lancaster Regiment), and while he was an officer, it leaves us rather short of the numbers even just in this one picture. So from that perspective it was a bust. However I did pick up on a few things that may be of use to contributors to this thread. @Charles Fair - the Wadham section includes a M L Jacks, M.A. commissioned November 24th 1914, Lt. K.R.R.C., Captain No.4 OCB. France 1915-16. Checking the MiC records the only officer in the K.R.R.C. with the surname Jacks is a Maurice Leonard Jacks. And although it is believed there are no training staff present in the picture, just in case this was our mysterious Captain who was possibly undergoing refersher trainining, I took a look to see if I could find an image of Captain Jacks. In fact the National Portrait Gallery have four images of a Maurice Leonard Jacks taken on the 10th July 1922. He is stated to be Director of Department of Education, Oxford University, so seems very likely to have been this Great War Officer. Image courtesy of https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/portrait/mw64591/Maurice-Leonard-Jacks?LinkID=mp62605&role=sit&rNo=0 It also lists J.F. Stenning, M.A., mobilized August 4th 1914, Lieutenant Colonel O.U.O.T.C. attached No.4 O.C.B. Liaison Officer between the University and War Office. C.B. 1916. C.B.E. (Mil) and then some dates and symbols. The Supplement to the London Gazette dated 3 June 1916 on page 5554 includes his appointment as a Companion of the Order of the Bath, showing him as Lieutenant-Colonel John Frederick Stenning, Officer Training Corps (Oxford University). https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29608/supplement/5554/data.pdf Wikipedia article which has him commanding an O.C.B. Battalion 1916-1918. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Stenning The National Portrait Gallery has a photograph of him from 1931 but it is not available online. https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/portrait/mw236003/John-Frederick-Stenning There is also an oil-painting of him from circa 1930 as Dean of Wadham that can be seen here: https://artuk.org/discover/artworks/john-stenning-18681959-warden-19271938-223941 While I was reading through the other entries there also appeared to be one or two on every page where it listed which O.C.B they attended. Cheers, Peter Edited 10 April , 2022 by PRC Irrelevant link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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