Jump to content
Free downloads from TNA ×
The Great War (1914-1918) Forum

Remembered Today:

Some Officers of Kitchener's New Armies


adrian 1008

Recommended Posts

Update:

One of the unidentified from the Durham Light Infantry is Alan Wynne Apperley

He was born 14/May 1885 and attended ? The Durham School along with at least one brother Newton Wynne Apperley.

I have now discovered that Alan left the UK and sailed to Canada enlisting in Montreal  on 19th March 1915as a Sapper with Canadian Forces Railway Constructors Corps. Ancestry has his attestation papers giving details of hat size shoe and Collar size !

He returns to the UK Longmoor Camp (Hampshire) where he is discharged to a Commission with the DLI

On the 8th July 1917 Alan is admitted to Birket Hosp, Mandeville Place London West suffering from PUO (Pyrexia of Unknown Origin) and GSW Left shoulder (slight) he remained in hosp until 5th October 1917 where he is discharged to Light Duties.

I have now written to the Old Dunelmians assoc asking for images of either brother. I have also written an article for BBC Radio Tees looking for relatives of the missing DLI Officers.

On a separate note another person still to be identified is George Penna age 26 He appears in the Edenborough Gazette New Years Honours 1917 with an MC. Should I be looking north of the border for him he is listed to KRRC ?

Edited by adrian 1008
Further thought
Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, adrian 1008 said:

Update:

One of the unidentified from the Durham Light Infantry is Alan Wynne Apperley

He was born 14/May 1885 and attended ? The Durham School along with at least one brother Newton Wynne Apperley.

I have now discovered that Alan left the UK and sailed to Canada enlisting in Montreal  on 19th March 1915as a Sapper with Canadian Forces Railway Constructors Corps. Ancestry has his attestation papers giving details of hat size shoe and Collar size !

He returns to the UK Longmoor Camp (Hampshire) where he is discharged to a Commission with the DLI

On the 8th July 1917 Alan is admitted to Birket Hosp, Mandeville Place London West suffering from PUO (Pyrexia of Unknown Origin) and GSW Left shoulder (slight) he remained in hosp until 5th October 1917 where he is discharged to Light Duties.

I have now written to the Old Dunelmians assoc asking for images of either brother. I have also written an article for BBC Radio Tees looking for relatives of the missing DLI Officers.

On a separate note another person still to be identified is George Penna age 26 He appears in the Edenborough Gazette New Years Honours 1917 with an MC. Should I be looking north of the border for him he is listed to KRRC ?

Thank you for the update Adrian, it’s good to see that you’re continuing to make progress and I hope that you get a good response from the BBC.    If George Penna appears in the Edinburgh Gazette it certainly at least suggests a Scottish connection.  Have you considered the absent voters list to see if you can find his home address?  Do his officer papers not still survive?  When it comes to KRRC matters I would always seek out the opinion of @MBrockwaygiven his deep interest in the regiment and an extensive collection of Chronicles (journals).

Edited by FROGSMILE
Link to comment
Share on other sites

22 hours ago, adrian 1008 said:

On a separate note another person still to be identified is George Penna age 26

He is one of four K.R.R.C men believed to be present, probably 10, 33, 44 and 49 (original posting)/48 revised numbering

One, Thomas Hugh Jenkin, has been identified as probably the man numbered 48/49 in the picture, as that man is not a Pioneer. Another, Alfred Herbert Naish, is believed to be number 44.That leaves two individuals who are still unknown, both members of the 20th (Pioneer) Battalion.

I'm fairly sure it has been previously stated he had served in the Boer War - although at a stated age of 26 when he joined the course, that's a bit difficult.

So potentially of the two un-named candidates on the group picture, only number 10 appears to be wearing a medal ribbon.

And that would potentially leave you with William Clayton Harvey being number 33.

Cheers,
Peter

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 22/05/2022 at 10:54, FROGSMILE said:

Thank you for the update Adrian, it’s good to see that you’re continuing to make progress and I hope that you get a good response from the BBC.    If George Penna appears in the Edinburgh Gazette it certainly at least suggests a Scottish connection.  Have you considered the absent voters list to see if you can find his home address?  Do his officer papers not still survive?  When it comes to KRRC matters I would always seek out the opinion of @MBrockwaygiven his deep interest in the regiment and an extensive collection of Chronicles (journals).

Thank you Bob, I hadnt thought of the absent voters list...... and appreciate the tagging of MBrockway

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 22/05/2022 at 11:26, PRC said:

He is one of four K.R.R.C men believed to be present, probably 10, 33, 44 and 49 (original posting)/48 revised numbering

One, Thomas Hugh Jenkin, has been identified as probably the man numbered 48/49 in the picture, as that man is not a Pioneer. Another, Alfred Herbert Naish, is believed to be number 44.That leaves two individuals who are still unknown, both members of the 20th (Pioneer) Battalion.

I'm fairly sure it has been previously stated he had served in the Boer War - although at a stated age of 26 when he joined the course, that's a bit difficult.

So potentially of the two un-named candidates on the group picture, only number 10 appears to be wearing a medal ribbon.

And that would potentially leave you with William Clayton Harvey being number 33.

Cheers,
Peter

Thank you Peter, I agree, William Clayton Harvey was born on the Isle of Wight and was KIA 14th July 1916 according to Ancestry et al.

But I cant find him on CWGC anywhere, but it might be me ! and I cant find him in the Btn War diary, although its v difficult to read

So to be clear on the KRRC identities.

10 Alfred Herbert Naish, age 37  (Born 1878) served in the Boer War with 2nd Btn Buffs East Kent Rgt, awarded QSA& KSA

33 William Clayton Harvey Age 36 (Born 1879) returned from Tasmania to join up, no previous military experience

44 George Penna age 26 MC 01/01/1917 Edinburgh Gazette but I cant link him to scotland at present

49 Thomas Hugh Jenkin the only KRRC non pioneer 17th Btn

Edited by adrian 1008
Further thought
Link to comment
Share on other sites

How did I miss that ???..... Thank you Bardess

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, adrian 1008 said:

So to be clear on the KRRC identities.

10 Alfred Herbert Naish, age 37  (Born 1878) served in the Boer War with 2nd Btn Buffs East Kent Rgt, awarded QSA& KSA

33 William Clayton Harvey Age 36 (Born 1879) returned from Tasmania to join up, no previous military experience

44 George Penna age 26 MC 01/01/1917 Edinburgh Gazette but I cant link him to scotland at present

49 Thomas Hugh Jenkin the only KRRC non pioneer 17th Btn

I was suggesting

10 is George Penna as there was evidence that he served in the Boer War, and this is the only one of the three pioneers with a medal ribbon.

33 is William Clayton Harvey by a process of elimination.

44 is Albert Herbert Naish based on a comparison with a known photograph of him.

48/49 is Thomas Hugh Jenkin as he is the only non-Pioneer candidate.

Cheers,
Peter

Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, PRC said:

I was suggesting

10 is George Penna as there was evidence that he served in the Boer War, and this is the only one of the three pioneers with a medal ribbon.

33 is William Clayton Harvey by a process of elimination.

44 is Albert Herbert Naish based on a comparison with a known photograph of him.

48/49 is Thomas Hugh Jenkin as he is the only non-Pioneer candidate.

Cheers,
Peter

Peter. Thank you for the check and challenge, I ve just printed off George Penna s form from Charles I had him aged 26. He s 36 and yes has previous service in S Africa came from Falmouth Cornwall I will ammend the chart

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, adrian 1008 said:

I ve just printed off George Penna s form from Charles I had him aged 26. He s 36 and yes has previous service in S Africa came from Falmouth Cornwall

Potentially two births in Cornwall at the right time to have made him 36 towards the end of 1915.

The birth of George Hubert Penna, mothers’ maiden name Roskrow, was registered with the civil authorities in the Redruth District in the July to September quarter, (Q3) of 1879.
Matches on the 1881 Census, (George, 1), 1891 Census, (George H, 10), 1901 Census, (George H., 21) and 1911 Census, (George Hubert, 31), the last as a Credit Draper and the married head of the household at 14 Bullers Terrace, Redruth. The death of a George H. Penna, aged 68, was recorded in the Penzance District in Q2 1948.His presence on the 1901 Census counts against him serving in South Africa but diesn't entirely rule him out.

The birth of a George Sara Penna, mothers’ maiden name Sara, was registered with the civil authorities in the Falmouth District in the January to March quarter, (Q1), of 1880. His baptism took place in the parish of Perranrworthal, Cornwall on the 5th February 1880 – the parish register doesn’t show a date of birth. Parents were Richard and Lavinia and the family live at Mylor. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NFBJ-5LG
Matches on the 1881 Census, (George S., 1, born Mylor) and the 1891 Census, (George, 10, born Mylor), nothing in England & Wales for 1901 & 1911. On the 1891 Census parents are Richard, (49, Engine Fitter, born St. Austell) and Lavinia (51, born Mylor, Cornwall). On the 1901 Census of England & Wales, Richard, Lavinia and some of their grown up children are recorded living at Mylor. Richard is described as a retired steam engine maker and fitter. On the 1911 Census of England & Wales the widower Richard was still living at Mylor along with an unmarried daughter in her thirties.

The death of a 66 year old George S. Penna was recorded in the Surrey Mid-Eastern District in Q2 1946. The 1946 Probate Calendar records that a George Sara Penna of The Gables, 13 Arundel road, Cheam, Surrey, died on the 20th April 1946 at 49 Dorking road, Epsom, Surrey. Probate was granted on the 20th August 1946 at the London Court to Olive Eliza Penna, widow, and Richard Knowles, retired farmer. (Note that just means Olive was A widow, not necessarily His widow – a furthr check is needed to confirm).

So that rules out one of the reasons why the George Sara Penna might have been missing from the 1901 Census of England & Wales. Another potential explanation is that he was serving in South Africa.

May be a co-incidence but according to the Anglo-Boer war website a Trooper 9390 George Sara Penna appears on the Nominal roll for Kitchener’s Horse. For more on the activities of Kitchener’s Horse in this conflict see https://www.angloboerwar.com/?option=com_content&view=article&id=352

The marriage of a George Sara Penna, aged 23, married an Olive Eliza Hicks, aged 21, on the 23rd December 1903 at St. Georges Cathedral, Capetown, Cape Province, South Africa. George gave his occupation as an Engine Fitter, and was a Bachelor. Olive gave her home address as High Street, Falmouth, and was a Spinster.

147115138_GeorgeSaraPenna1903Marriagesourcedfamilysearch.jpg.f131a369c099ab963444363b20057a20.jpg

Image courtesy familysearch https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6ZH5-XGKT

On the 1921 Census of England & Wales there is a George Penna, born Mylor, Cornwall, c1880, who was recorded in the Wandsworth Borough of Surrey. In the same Borough there is also an Olive Penna, born Falmouth c1884. A check of the actual document may turn up more information.

In the 1939 Register there is an Olive Penna, born 1884, who was recorded at 13 Arundel Road, Sutton. She is the only person with that surname at that address. If her husband was serving then he wouldn’t have been included in the scope of the exercise. A check of the actual document may turn up more information.

According to the familysearch website, the front page of the edition of Western Morning News dated April 20th, 1946, has an obituary for him, and it’s available via the British Newspaper Archive website. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPZ7-QF9J
It should also therefore also be available via FindMyPast.

Hope that helps,
Peter

Edited by PRC
Typo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, PRC said:

Potentially two births in Cornwall at the right time to have made him 36 towards the end of 1915.

The birth of George Hubert Penna, mothers’ maiden name Roskrow, was registered with the civil authorities in the Redruth District in the July to September quarter, (Q3) of 1879.
Matches on the 1881 Census, (George, 1), 1891 Census, (George H, 10), 1901 Census, (George H., 21) and 1911 Census, (George Hubert, 31), the last as a Credit Draper and the married head of the household at 14 Bullers Terrace, Redruth. The death of a George H. Penna, aged 68, was recorded in the Penzance District in Q2 1948.His presence on the 1901 Census counts against him serving in South Africa but diesn't entirely rule him out.

The birth of a George Sara Penna, mothers’ maiden name Sara, was registered with the civil authorities in the Falmouth District in the January to March quarter, (Q1), of 1880. His baptism took place in the parish of Perranrworthal, Cornwall on the 5th February 1880 – the parish register doesn’t show a date of birth. Parents were Richard and Lavinia and the family live at Mylor. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NFBJ-5LG
Matches on the 1881 Census, (George S., 1, born Mylor) and the 1891 Census, (George, 10, born Mylor), nothing in England & Wales for 1901 & 1911. On the 1891 Census parents are Richard, (49, Engine Fitter, born St. Austell) and Lavinia (51, born Mylor, Cornwall). On the 1901 Census of England & Wales, Richard, Lavinia and some of their grown up children are recorded living at Mylor. Richard is described as a retired steam engine maker and fitter. On the 1911 Census of England & Wales the widower Richard was still living at Mylor along with an unmarried daughter in her thirties.

The death of a 66 year old George S. Penna was recorded in the Surrey Mid-Eastern District in Q2 1946. The 1946 Probate Calendar records that a George Sara Penna of The Gables, 13 Arundel road, Cheam, Surrey, died on the 20th April 1946 at 49 Dorking road, Epsom, Surrey. Probate was granted on the 20th August 1946 at the London Court to Olive Eliza Penna, widow, and Richard Knowles, retired farmer. (Note that just means Olive was A widow, not necessarily His widow – a furthr check is needed to confirm).

So that rules out one of the reasons why the George Sara Penna might have been missing from the 1901 Census of England & Wales. Another potential explanation is that he was serving in South Africa.

May be a co-incidence but according to the Anglo-Boer war website a Trooper 9390 George Sara Penna appears on the Nominal roll for Kitchener’s Horse. For more on the activities of Kitcher’s Horse in this conflict see https://www.angloboerwar.com/?option=com_content&view=article&id=352

The marriage of a George Sara Penna, aged 23, married an Olive Eliza Hicks, aged 21, on the 23rd December 1903 at St. Georges Cathedral, Capetown, Cape Province, South Africa. George gave his occupation as an Engine Fitter, and was a Bachelor. Olive gave her home address as High Street, Falmouth, and was a Spinster.

147115138_GeorgeSaraPenna1903Marriagesourcedfamilysearch.jpg.f131a369c099ab963444363b20057a20.jpg

Image courtesy familysearch https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6ZH5-XGKT

On the 1921 Census of England & Wales there is a George Penna, born Mylor, Cornwall, c1880, who was recorded in the Wandsworth Borough of Surrey. In the same Borough there is also an Olive Penna, born Falmouth c1884. A check of the actual document may turn up more information.

In the 1939 Register there is an Olive Penna, born 1884, who was recorded at 13 Arundel Road, Sutton. She is the only person with that surname at that address. If her husband was serving then he wouldn’t have been included in the scope of the exercise. A check of the actual document may turn up more information.

According to the familysearch website, the front page of the edition of Western Morning News dated April 20th, 1946, has an obituary for him, and it’s available via the British Newspaper Archive website. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QPZ7-QF9J
It should also therefore also be available via FindMyPast.

Hope that helps<
Peter

It certainly does Peter, George Penna's enrolment form shows previous service with Kitchener's Horse.

I think that's another positive identification

Link to comment
Share on other sites

48 minutes ago, adrian 1008 said:

It certainly does Peter, George Penna's enrolment form shows previous service with Kitchener's Horse.

I think that's another positive identification

It’s crossed my mind that by the time you’re finished researching the photograph it will be quite a story as to how it’s all been painstakingly worked out.  With the often quite comprehensive life and family histories that Peter and others are digging up one could almost imagine a thesis being written by a social historian exploring the rich seam of history and shining a light on the social stratas that the group of officers concerned encompass.  Adding in battalion war diaries and the subsequent fate of each man would extend the story even further, not to mention the casualty statistics it might elicit as a sample of war raised officers.

Edited by FROGSMILE
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I ve been thinking along similar lines..... I m toying with the idea of writing a book once it is finished

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, adrian 1008 said:

I ve been thinking along similar lines..... I m toying with the idea of writing a book once it is finished

I’m sure it would be very interesting on a number of levels.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I ve never written a book before...... first time for everything.

Just as a thought..... Would the Army have used a professional (Local) photographer to take the image ? I imagine this would pre date any public relations work ?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 minutes ago, adrian 1008 said:

I ve never written a book before...... first time for everything.

Just as a thought..... Would the Army have used a professional (Local) photographer to take the image ? I imagine this would pre date any public relations work ?

 

Yes a local photographer is likely and many reputable photographic studios across the British Empire found it lucrative to make an arrangement with army units in their vicinity.  It seems likely that quite a number of similar photos were taken by the same photographer, who might well have already had a relationship with the university, perhaps taking typical photos of the Rowing 8, the Rugby 15, Football 11, etc.  Inquiry with the university might prove profitable in eliciting the source of such photos immediately prewar.  War Office PR photos do seem to be a later phenomenon I agree.

Edited by FROGSMILE
Link to comment
Share on other sites

great idea thank you will write to the College

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Response from Wadham College. They have no record of any photographic companies used. I have emailed BBC Radio Oxford to see if they would be interested in  running a story on the identity of the picture.

as a spin off from the research No 33 William Clayton Harvey KRRC 20th Btn was born and raised on the Isle of Wight, yet does not appear on any of the Islands war memorials, so another email heading south !

Link to comment
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, adrian 1008 said:

They have no record of any photographic companies used.

A number of the sports related pictures taken pre-war for various colleges up to and including 1914 seem to be the work of Gillman & Co. Ltd, of Oxford. https://www.nationaltrustcollections.org.uk/results?Maker=Gillman+and+Co.+Ltd.+[photographers]+Oxford

The National Portrait Gallery collection however has them only active up until 1910. https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/person/mp87768/gillman--co

Edit .However this picture shows them active in 1919 and taking pictures in connection with Wadham College.

1298663860_WadhamCollegeRugbyTeam1919sourcedwwwgeorgeglazercom.png.ee68393b479752e790574189bd83c3a9.png

Image courtesy https://www.georgeglazer.com/wpmain/product/sports-rugby-wadham-college-oxford-team-picture-photograph-1919/

Cheers,
Peter

Edited by PRC
Add 1919 Picture and link
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, adrian 1008 said:

Response from Wadham College. They have no record of any photographic companies used. I have emailed BBC Radio Oxford to see if they would be interested in  running a story on the identity of the picture.

as a spin off from the research No 33 William Clayton Harvey KRRC 20th Btn was born and raised on the Isle of Wight, yet does not appear on any of the Islands war memorials, so another email heading south !

I think that Wadham College are being rather idle to be honest.  The photographic studios that took their sporting photographs are likely to be recorded somewhere on the prints themselves.  At least someone could look, although sometimes (not always) it might be inside the frame. There’s usually a lot of these photos, although I don’t know if they’re still on common room walls nowadays, or perhaps stored away.  It needs some concerted effort and interest on their part and that might be asking a lot given contemporary preoccupations.

36 minutes ago, PRC said:

A number of the sports related pictures taken pre-war for various colleges up to and including 1914 seem to be the work of Gillman & Co. Ltd, of Oxford. https://www.nationaltrustcollections.org.uk/results?Maker=Gillman+and+Co.+Ltd.+[photographers]+Oxford

The National Portrait Gallery collection however has them only active up until 1910. https://www.npg.org.uk/collections/search/person/mp87768/gillman--co

Edit .However this picture shows them active in 1919 and taking pictures in connection with Wadham College.

1298663860_WadhamCollegeRugbyTeam1919sourcedwwwgeorgeglazercom.png.ee68393b479752e790574189bd83c3a9.png

Image courtesy https://www.georgeglazer.com/wpmain/product/sports-rugby-wadham-college-oxford-team-picture-photograph-1919/

Cheers,
Peter

Brilliant Peter, that looks very promising!

Edited by FROGSMILE
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

I think that Wadham College are being rather idle to be honest.  The photographic studios that took their sporting photographs are likely to be recorded somewhere on the prints themselves.  At least someone could look, although sometimes (not always) it might be inside the frame. There’s usually a lot of these photos, although I don’t know if they’re still on common room walls nowadays, or perhaps stored away.  It needs some concerted effort and interest on their part and that might be asking a lot given contemporary preoccupations.

Brilliant Peter, that looks very promising!

I agree thats the second brush of from them...Gilman and Co are still operating so I have written to them this evening

Edited by adrian 1008
typo
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Most of my photos of Nos and 4 and 6 OCB seem to be by Gillman, though I have one from E Coy 6 OCB dated May 1917 by Turner. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just doing a random search through the forum and Vernon Holden (No2) appears in a post from 2006 by @JulianConcerning The Royal West Kent Rgt

I dont know if I can repost it hopefully the author may add to this thread

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nice email from the archivist at the Durham School

Alan Wynne Apperley

B. 1885, son of Capt. N.W. Apperley, M.V.O., J.P., South End, Durham. Entered Durham School January 1898; Day Boy and School House; 1st crew 1903; left December 1903 (Mod. v); with Harland and Wolff, Belfast, 1904; Can. Pac. Rly. Co. 1905-15; Great War: sapper, Can. Overseas Rly. Corps, 1915; commission, 18th D.L.I. 1915; wounded; captain R.E. Reg. Army (Resident Officer) till May 1935; civil engineer till 1927; with I.C.I. Billingham, Transport Department (organisation) since 1927; ordnance corps works

Alan Wynne Apperley seated R of Master grey Blazer straw hat.pdf

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 25/05/2022 at 16:45, adrian 1008 said:

Nice email from the archivist at the Durham School

Alan Wynne Apperley

Wonder if there is enough detail in the original to be able to make a decent stab at identifying him? I've pulled something together but the resolution isn't really high enough.

From whats been posted so far I believe the candidates for Durham Light Infantry Officers in the Photo, (either numbering) are 1, 3, 4, 6, 12, 17, 30, 36, 37, 43

4 identified as George Stuart Reay via a picture from the Durham County Archives
37 identified as Alexandar Ferguson, as he was believed to be the sole DLI Pioneer present.

And for the other 8 DLI men there are currently 7 candidates:-

William Dunbar Anderson
Alan Wynne Anderson
Vere Leopold Dunstan Beart
John Stuart Chalmers
John Cook
Maurice Elliff
John Williams

So either too many DLI men in the picture or not enough DLI candidates identified so far.

1641341085_AlanApperleyComparisonPanelv1.png.ba3a39be35ce8feda2319cd43febf9f3.png1641341085_AlanApperleyComparisonPanelv1.png.ba3a39be35ce8feda2319cd43febf9f3.png
Cheers,
Peter

Edited by PRC
1)Typo 2) 24042024 Reinstate image
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
×
×
  • Create New...