Some Officers of Kitchener's New Armies

[adrian 1008]

Seeing Hugh s thread on the Oxford OTC reminded me of the photo I put up on the forum when I first joined, but it was of a poor quality and not possible to identify many badges The Image is believed to date to late 1915/early 1916

However..... I have re imaged the photo and with a great deal of assistance from Frogsmile the enhanced picture is produced alongside a crude numeric reference system to identify each Unit, and after careful research.

I wonder if it is possible to identify any of the individuals. I originally spoke to Wadham College Archivist but they had no notes on  entrants to the OTC.

Oxford OTC Picture ID Regiments PDF.pdf

[FROGSMILE]

I imagine there’ll be a copy of the photo somewhere that’s been annotated by its owner with names.  Usually each officer will have been offered a copy, but they’d have had to pay for it.

1. Durham Light Infantry.

2. Queen’s Own Royal West Kent Regiment.

3. Durham Light Infantry.

4. Durham Light Infantry.

5. Bedfordshire Regiment.

6. Durham Light Infantry.

7. King’s Own Royal Lancaster Regiment.

8. Essex Regiment.

9. Royal Berkshire Regiment.

10. King’s Royal Rifle Corps (pioneers 20th or 25th Bn, probably the former). Collar badges refer. With unidentified medal ribbon(s).

11. Rifle Brigade.

12. Durham Light Infantry.

13. King’s Shropshire Light Infantry (the only full lieutenant in the photo).

14. Royal Sussex Regiment.

15. Middlesex Regiment. 

16. Queen’s Royal West Surrey Regiment.

17. Durham Light Infantry.

18. Sherwood Foresters (Notts & Derby) Regiment going by collar badges.

19. Highland Light Infantry.

20. Cheshire Regiment.

21. Devonshire Regiment.

22. Duke of Cornwall’s Light Infantry.

23. Queen’s Royal West Surrey Regiment.

24. Rifle Brigade.

25. Essex Regiment.

26. Hampshire Regiment.

27. Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regiment).

28. Northumberland Fusiliers with shoulder title worn instead of collar badges.

29. Rifle Brigade.

30. Durham Light Infantry.

31. Hampshire Regiment.

32. Royal Warwickshire Regiment.

33. King’s Royal Rifle Corps (pioneers 20th, or 25th Bn, probably the former. Collar badges refer.

34. Rifle Brigade.

35. Prince of Wales’s Own West Yorkshire Regiment.

36. Durham Light Infantry.

37. Durham Light Infantry (pioneers 11th, or 22nd Bn). Collar badges refer.

38. Manchester Regiment.

39. Royal Fusiliers (City of London Regiment).

40. Wiltshire Regiment.

41. Unclear due to cap cover with only collar badge visible, but probably King’s Own Royal Lancaster Regiment as the badge is shaped like their Lion of England.

42. Royal Irish Rifles.

43. Durham Light Infantry,

44. King’s Royal Rifle Corps (pioneers 20th, or 25th Bn, probably the former. Collar badges refer.

45. King’s Own Royal Lancaster Regiment.  Unidentified medal ribbon, possibly Distinguished Conduct Medal or IGS.

46. Dorsetshire Regiment.

47. Manchester Regiment [inadvertently duplicated with 38].

48. Royal Sussex Regiment.

49.  King’s Royal Rifle Corps.

Edited 10 April , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Acknown]

An idea. Have a look at the names on the Wadham College Roll of Honour - https://www.iwm.org.uk/memorials/item/memorial/31991 (look at photo on the link, be aware that the list of names below it jumbles up WW1 and WW2). Match regiments to names, look at CWGC records and personal histories. E.g. R Horridge was a Manchester. Two on your list. Robert Horridge was at Wadham College. A note on a family tree on Ancestry states: 'Lieutenant Manchester Regiment Attached to 2nd Bn. Oxford Medical Alumini Officer Training Corps Attached to the Manchester Regiment Officer Reserve. Wadham’s (Wadham college, University of Oxford) first name on the ‘Roll of Honour’ is that of Robert Horridge, who was killed at Ypres in November [1914].' The family tree contains a photograph of him: Ancestry.

Maybe that's too early for your supposition that the photo was taken later, but you may get some matches. I'll try again myself tomorrow.

Acknown

[charlie962]

Minor point, I think one man at the 2nd row from back has two numbers, 38 and 47 ?

[adrian 1008]

Thank you Charlie, I see your point, both are listed to the Manchester Rgt

[FROGSMILE]

47 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Minor point, I think one man at the 2nd row from back has two numbers, 38 and 47 ?

Well spotted charlie.  The perils of methodically working along each individual row of numbers…

[PRC]

Racking my brains trying to think of a way to identify names in the absence of anyone recognising a face, and came up with this.

Of the units potentially identified the only one specific enough to limit the potential candidates is:-

44. King’s Royal Rifle Corps (pioneers 20th, or 25th Bn, probably the former. Collar badges refer.

You believe the picture was taken between late 1915 and early 1916, in the run up to the Somme.

Erring on the side of caution I checked out the British Army List for August 1916. It takes a while for changes to filter through so casualties on the Somme in the opening weeks of the campaign are still likely to be listed on the August 1916 list.

I reasoned that if this KRRC man could be identified it may prove possible from his appearance in the London Gazette and his date of seniority to identify others who might have been on the same course. And a date of going to France would provide a latest date as to when the picture could have been taken.

And a man who was commissioned in the period the picture is believed to come from is unlikely to have been promoted, and almost certainly will have gone out to a Theatre of War as a Second Lieutenant.

There isn’t a 25th Battalion listed in August 1916, only a 20th – LLT references a chance in status of the 25th Battalion occuring in June 1916. Checking CWGC for the period 1st September 1915 to 30th June 1916 brings up only 7 casualties of the 20th Battalion. Only one was an officer – Second Lieutenant Angus McDonald, who died in the UK on the 29th December 1915. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/370256/
Additional information is that he was the Son of Lt. Col. John McDonald, V.D., of 25, North Drive, New Brighton, Cheshire.He is buried at Liverpool, (Anfield Cemtery).
Angus does not appear to have qualified for any medals.
From The Liverpool Echo dated 30th December 1915
“McDONALD, Dec.29th, London, Angus George, aged 42, Second Lieutenant 20th Kings Royal Rifles, (Pioneer Battalion), son of Lieutenant Colonel John and Mary E. McDONALD, 25 North Dr, New Brighton, interment Anfield Cemetery tomorrow.”
http://www.old-merseytimes.co.uk/anfieldinterments1915.html

So other than officers serving as attached to the 20th Battalion our “hit list” looks like this:-

Image courtesy https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/119761706

In reverse order and adding MiC and Long Paper cataloguing details.

E.D. Bateman (5th April 1916 / 4th December 1915). Possible MiC for an Edward Dudley Bateman, ex Private 3317 (or 5317) 4th Seaforth Highlanders, released to a commission in the “Rifle Brigade” 3-12-15, and finished the war serving with the Railway Transport Establishment as a Railway Transport Officer. No contact address on the card for the medal claim.
Long Papers for Edward Dudley Bateman show him as The King’s Royal Rifle Corps.

T.F. Furnell (22nd January 1916). MiD London Gazette 25/05/17. MiC as Captain Thomas Frederick Furnell, M.C. Went out to France 28/03/16. Contact address Lloyds Bank House, Wellingborough, Northants.
No obvious long papers.
Possibly served again in WW2 https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/36033/supplement/2427/data.pdf
Most likely the Thomas Frederick Furnell whose birth was registered in the Fulham District in Q4 1888.

K. Griffits (20th January 1916). MiC catalogued as Kenloch Griffits, 20th Kings Royal Rifle Corps at the TNA, Kinlock Griffits by Ancestry. Landed in France 30/03/16. Contact address July 1921 on claim for medals – 77 Grosvenor Square, East Sheen, (London) SW14.
Long papers in name of Kinloch Griffits.
Most likely the Kinloch Griffits whose birth was registered in the Wycombe District of Buckinghamshire in Q2 1889.

A.T. Pethick (10th January 1916). Most likely the MiC for Arthur Thomas Pethick ex Private 1977 1/16th London Regiment subsequently Lieutenant Kings African Rifles. MiC shows commissioned 10th January 1916. His VM and BWM are on the Officer Roll for the KRRC. Initial contact address for medals – 143 Trinity Road, Wandsworth, SW. Bit more here on his life, starting with his birth in 1896 and including serving in Ireland with the Auxilliaries, 1921/22, but no picture. http://www.theauxiliaries.com/men-alphabetical/men-p-q/pethick-at/pethick-at.html
Possibly can be ruled out on basis of age.

W.C.B. Baverstock (1st January 1916). MiC shows William Charles Best Baverstock had service with the Dorset Yeomanry but without details of rank. He went out to France 4th May 1916. His contact address on his medal application in May 1922 was Gilbert & Ellis Islands Colony, Tabitenea, Central Pacific.
Possibly the William Charles Best Baverstock whose birth was registered in the Blandford District of Dorset in Q4 1883.

E.G. Thompson (23rd December 1915). No obvious MiC match. Long papers for 2nd Lieutenant Esmonde Gratton Thompson, The King’s Royal Rifle Corps.
Probably the Edmonde Grattan Thompson whose birth was registered in the Plomesgate District of Suffolk in Q3 of 1886.

W.H. Nainby (29th November 1915). MiC for Whenfield Hamilton Nainby, formerly Private 2857 Honourable Artillery Company, (TNA), Ancestry have indexed as Whinfield Hamilton Nainby. Card shows commissioned into the KRRC 29th November 1915. 2nd Lieutenant Whinfield Hamilton Nainby was killed in action serving with the 20th Battalion in France & Flanders on the 18th August 1916. Addition information on CWGC is that he was aged 35 and the son of Henry J. and Amy Louisa Nainby, of 17, Linkenholt Mansions, Stamford Brook Avenue, Hammersmith, London. Native of Chiswick, London. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/293130/whinfield-hamilton-nainby/

F.R. Willcox (18th November 1915). Most likely the MiC for 2nd Lt Frank Reginald Willcox, OBLI, formerly Sergeant 149 Somerset Light Infantry and then Lieutenant KRRC. He was released to a commission 17.11.15. I suspect the order of regiments may be out, as his medals were issued by the OBLI. He first landed in France on the 4th May 1916. Contact address for application for medals in September 1921 was 18, Chesham Road, Kemp Town, Brighton.
Possibly the Frank Reginald Willcox whose birth was registered in the Keynsham District of Somerset in Q1 1887.

G.S. Selmes (18th November 1915). No obvious MiC. Long papers for a Lieutenant George Spencer Selmes,The King's Royal Rifle Corps. Probably the George Spencer Selmes whose birth was registered in the Eastbourne District of Sussex in Q4 1884.

C. Langridge (17th November 1915). No obvious MiC. Long papers for a Lieutenant Cecil Langridge, The King's Royal Rifle Corps

C.S. Garlick (4th October 1915). MiC for Charles Sidney Garlick . Also served as a 2nd Lieutenant with the Wiltshire Regiment. First went to France 4th May 1916. Died of wounds on the 16th July 1916 serving with the 20th Battalion, aged 18. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/24569/charles-sidney-garlick/

While I think he can be ruled out on the basis of age anyway, this picture, courtesy of Lives of the First World War, should be the final nail in the coffin.

Image courtesy of https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/1305537

H.R. Stobie (8th March 1916 / 25th September 1915). MiC for Harold Rawse Stobie (TNA), Harold Ramsey Stobie, (Ancestry). He first landed in France 28th March 1916. Contact address for his Medals in June 1920 was 4064 Washington Boulevard, St. Louis, U.S.A.
Family tree on familysearch shows Harold Ramsey Stobie born 20th March 1881 at Portobello, Edinburgh, was living at White Plains, New York on the 1910 US Census, and died Pelham, Westchester, New York on the 28th November 1930.

As you can see, a bit light on photo's for comparison at this point.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

A very logical methodology Peter and an excellent reflection of the complexity of your research, which I always wonder at.  It seems a very daunting task to do for each officer in the photo, especially if there are some with no portrait photograph to compare.  It does seem possible that the officers in the OP photo might be from the earliest tranche of Kitchener commissions and so from units within K1, thus it may have been taken earlier than I’ve surmised.  I suppose knowing the dates when the first officers commenced training at Wadham College would provide a benchmark to work from.  It was in part their apparent maturity that made me think that they were probably from a later tranche of officers.  I imagine that in a lot of cases they were married with young families.

Edited 8 April , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

I must agree that Peter's methodical approach is very impressive and has, as previous threads have shown, led to some excellent results. 

I haven't access to the download in the op. I am unclear if these men are Wadham graduates or an OTC course at Wadham?

I note that only one man seems to have a medal ribbon, in the back row, no45. 

Charlie

[PRC]

28 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

A very logical methodology Peter and an excellent reflection of the complexity of your research, which I always wonder at.  It seems a very daunting task to do for each officer in the photo, especially if there are some with no portrait photograph to compare.

Agreed but now there are specific names to look for and I'm sure there have been references to a contemporary publication of the KRRC which might help whittle down the list or even come up with a match. Even if it only got it down to 5 or 6 possibles then a deep dive into the London Gazette might turn up that one of them was commissioned at the same time as men from the DLI, Essex and Manchester Regiment, etc, in the right quantites to match the course we are looking at here.

And while I was looking again at the pdf list of Regiments to write that, I noticed number 10 & 33 also has the same note about it potentially being the same 20th or 25th Battalion of the K.R.R.C, so for me that would bump Selmes, (approximately 31 years old when the picture was likely to have been taken), Willcox, (approximately 28) and Langridge to the front of the pack as they were commssioned within a day of each other. However that hope was soon dashed as the relevant page of the London Gazette shows George Spencer Selmes was initially commissioned into the Dorsetshire Regiment and Frank Reginald Willcox into the O.B.L.I. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29381/page/11763

So back to the drawing board.

39 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I suppose knowing the dates when the first officers commenced training at Wadham College would provide a benchmark to work from.

Perhaps @Charles Fair could advise on that one.

Cheers,
Peter

[charlie962]

No 29 with that long kneck reminds me of a painted portrait we identified on this forum a few years back. It was a large painting hanging in a London TF mess, if I remember correctly but I cannot find the thread. Man had an MC ribbon and was killed 1915 or 1916.......

...brain whirring......Cap badge probably rules him out as I think it was a RFus man in that old thread?

Charlie 

Edit.. ignore my suggestion. Ears wrong. Old thread I was thinking of was this "Portrait of an Unknown Officer of the Royal Fusiliers, MC and Bar - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum" https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/237019-portrait-of-an-unknown-officer-of-the-royal-fusiliers-mc-and-bar/ 

But long kneck and large ears of 29 seem familiar..

Edited 8 April , 2022 by charlie962

[FROGSMILE]

25 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

I must agree that Peter's methodical approach is very impressive and has, as previous threads have shown, led to some excellent results. 

I haven't access to the download in the op. I am unclear if these men are Wadham graduates or an OTC course at Wadham?

I note that only one man seems to have a medal ribbon, in the back row, no45. 

Charlie

I’ve edited my earliest reply to include all the unit identifications against each number.

[adrian 1008]

23 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

I note that only one man seems to have a medal ribbon, in the back row, no45. 

No 45 is possibly a DCM, also No10 appears with ? two ribbons the second of which may be a KSA, possibly the first being a QSA

I will contact the archivist at Wadham and see if they have dates of courses .

[charlie962]

Taking a slightly different route to Peter, I'm looking at FmP newspapers.

There is a background article on the OU OTC and in particular the 4th Officer Cadet Bn which quartered some of its cadets at Wadham. Newspaper dated March 1916 so perhaps too late for this exercise ? But it will help to know which unit we are talking about. 

"The British Newspaper Archive | findmypast.co.uk" https://search.findmypast.co.uk/bna/viewarticle?id=bl%2f0000989%2f19160324%2f103&stringtohighlight=wadham cadet

Newspapers do report games matches with Wadham Cadets v others and although I only found 1916 listings (eg May 1916 cricket team) perhaps there is a 1915 list that may give us a chunk of names to follow up? 

I will continue searching on this tack.....

Charlie 

Ps. The article says the courses were typically 4 months.

It also mentions closure 7/3/16 of the School for Instruction for Officers at Oxford which had been in existence at least 14 months.

Edited 8 April , 2022 by charlie962

[charlie962]

Just posting link to your original 2020 thread as it repeats some of what I have said.

"Wadham College Officer Training Unit - Soldiers and their units - The Great War (1914-1918) Forum" https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/286367-wadham-college-officer-training-unit/#comment-2950913

[charlie962]

What have we to say that this is definitely 1915 and not 1916 or even 1917?

 

 

[adrian 1008]

Thank you Charlie thats helpful

[Acknown]

The Oxford University Roll of Service is online. Here is an extract:

The Roll contains matriculation dates, and dates of  commencement  of  Service, so any suspected candidates can be researched.

Acknown

Edited 8 April , 2022 by Acknown

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, charlie962 said:

What have we to say that this is definitely 1915 and not 1916 or even 1917?

 

 

If 1917 I’d have expected to see more ex-rankers with wound stripes (introduced July 1916) and a few MM, DCM, or pre-war campaign ribbons. 

Edited 8 April , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[charlie962]

The two Officer Cadet Battalions were the 4th and 6th. It was the 4th that used Wadham, inter alia, and it was their D Company (about 100) at least who were there. 

The article I linked noted that in March 1916 the 4th Bn had most of its men from the UOOTC so Acknown's link to roll is particularly relevant, I think. Moreso than for 6th Bn.

Charlie

[charlie962]

I note no13 has two pips on each cuff. Staff or ?

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

The two Officer Cadet Battalions were the 4th and 6th. It was the 4th that used Wadham, inter alia, and it was their D Company (about 100) at least who were there. 

The article I linked noted that in March 1916 the 4th Bn had most of its men from the UOOTC so Acknown's link to roll is particularly relevant, I think. Moreso than for 6th Bn.

Charlie

Looking at the newsprint article in Acknown’s post it doesn’t seem impossible that the photo might date to the earliest period between Jan 1915 and Mar 1916, although it had to be after the pioneers were introduced and their collar badges made available, which latter was sealed in 1915.

Edited 8 April , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Bordercollie]

1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

What have we to say that this is definitely 1915 and not 1916 or even 1917?

 

 

If 1915 and not 1916 does it not pre-date the 4th Officer Cadet Battalion at Wadham?  Brigadier James gives the formation of Officer Cadet Battalions as February 1916 (ACI 357 of 14th February 1916). The course lasted 4 months and at the end of it commissions were granted to those who qualified.  If Brigadier James is right that seems to suggest that the earliest date for such a photograph of graduates from 4th Officer Cadet Battalion would be mid-June 1916. 

[charlie962]

24 minutes ago, Bordercollie said:

does it not pre-date the 4th Officer Cadet Battalion at Wadham

@adrian 1008 it was you who said the frame said OTU but I've not seen a pic of that. Is there anything else on the back of the frame or the back of the photo mount?

[Acknown]

18 hours ago, Acknown said:

An idea. Have a look at the names on the Wadham College Roll of Honour

For what it's worth, this convoluted idea bore no fruit. Though I came up with several photos, none fitted. Sadly, several on the R of H died on 01 Jul 16.

Acknown