Some Officers of Kitchener's New Armies

[FROGSMILE]

10 hours ago, Bordercollie said:

It must be the 34th Battalion. The London Gazette shows him commissioned into the West Yorkshire Regiment with seniority 8th December 1915

Then transferred from a Reserve Battalion to a Service Battalion of the West Yorkshire Regiment on 18th September 1916

 

Then transferred from a Service Battalion of the West Yorkshire Regiment to a Labour Battalion of the Royal Fusiliers on 11th October 1916.

And finally transferred to the Labour Corps on 13th April 1917

Fantastic, thank you.  As per original assessment and neatly put to bed by your detective work.  It’s logical that he ended up with the Royal Engineers post war.

Edited 10 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[adrian 1008]

Update :

This project has grown into something I never imagined thanks to many individuals.

I am just pausing to take stock and tabulate what we know and how we know it and what is the evidence base. This will appear soon. @PRChas been a huge help in this part! The Essex Regimental Museum have been unable to confirm the two Essex Officers George Wheeler (aged17 6mths) and William Browne Patterson (aged 24) image No 8 & 25

The DLI Museum are trawling their image library .....ongoing

Thanks to @FROGSMILEidentification of Units a number of individuals have been positively identified as they were the sole representative of their Unit. 

The Duke of Cornwall s Light Inf has two names on the course, Harcourt Charles  Turner and John Balhatchet Slee but there is only one Badged individual image 22

Similarly the Manchester Rgt has two images but one name Samuel C Jackson image 38 & 47

Hampshire Rgt Laurence Arthur Westmore  image 26 & 31

Where can I go for Museums for the following :

Rifle Brigade

Kings Royal Rifle Corps

Royal Lancaster Rgt

 

Investigations are ongoing

[FROGSMILE]

25 minutes ago, adrian 1008 said:

Update :

This project has grown into something I never imagined thanks to many individuals.

I am just pausing to take stock and tabulate what we know and how we know it and what is the evidence base. This will appear soon. @PRChas been a huge help in this part! The Essex Regimental Museum have been unable to confirm the two Essex Officers George Wheeler (aged17 6mths) and William Browne Patterson (aged 24) image No 8 & 25

The DLI Museum are trawling their image library .....ongoing

Thanks to @FROGSMILEidentification of Units a number of individuals have been positively identified as they were the sole representative of their Unit. 

The Duke of Cornwall s Light Inf has two names on the course, Harcourt Charles  Turner and John Balhatchet Slee but there is only one Badged individual image 22

Similarly the Manchester Rgt has two images but one name Samuel C Jackson image 38 & 47

Hampshire Rgt Laurence Arthur Westmore  image 26 & 31

Where can I go for Museums for the following :

Rifle Brigade

Kings Royal Rifle Corps

Royal Lancaster Rgt

 

Investigations are ongoing

The Rifle Brigade and KRRC share a museum titled “Royal Green Jackets (RGJ) museum” in what was the old Peninsula Barracks in Winchester.  They are collocated with a separately run, “Rifles Museum”, representing the new regiment formed from a great many earlier regiments including the RGJ.  I’ve tried to contact them before during Covid and their response was a year later and cursory, explaining merely the separate delineation of the research procedure.  They might be better now: https://rgjmuseum.co.uk

The King’s Own Royal Lancaster Regiment Museum can be contacted here: http://www.kingsownmuseum.com

Most military museums are run on a shoestring since their funding support was abandoned by the MOD, although they are all linked under the umbrella of a charitable trust, the Army Museums Ogilby Trust: https://www.armymuseums.org.uk

Edited 11 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[adrian 1008]

6 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The Rifle Brigade and KRRC share a museum titled “Royal Green Jackets (RGJ) museum” in what was the old Peninsula Barracks in Winchester.  They are collocated with a separate, “Rifles Museum”, representing the new regiment formed from a great many earlier regiments including the RGJ.  I’ve tried to contact them before during Covid and their response was a year later and cursory.  They might be better now: 

The King’s Own Royal Lancaster Regiment Museum can be contacted here: http://www.kingsownmuseum.com

Thank you Bob, I know the RGJ Museum didnt realise they had KRRC &RB I will try them

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, adrian 1008 said:

Thank you Bob, I know the RGJ Museum didnt realise they had KRRC &RB I will try them

The RGJ Museum essentially covers the relatively short-lived history of that regiment, plus the several hundred years existence of its forebears, the KRRC, RB, and Oxf&Bucks LI (43rd&52nd).

Edited 11 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[Bordercollie]

32 minutes ago, adrian 1008 said:

 

Where can I go for Museums for the following :

Rifle Brigade

Kings Royal Rifle Corps

Royal Lancaster Rgt

 

 

For the King's Own (Royal Lancaster Regiment) it is http://www.kingsownmuseum.com/index.htm

[adrian 1008]

Thank you just writing to them

[adrian 1008]

7 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The RGJ Museum essentially covers the relatively short-lived history of that regiment, plus the several hundred years existence of its forebears, the KRRC, RB, and Oxf&Bucks LI (43rd&52nd).

At the risk of going off topic..... Many years ago we were on exercise with them, did they adopt the KRRC badge ? and at a final parade they were marching fast, the SWO had forty fits trying to time marchpast. or I might have got it wrong !

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, adrian 1008 said:

At the risk of going off topic..... Many years ago we were on exercise with them, did they adopt the KRRC badge ? and at a final parade they were marching fast, the SWO had forty fits trying to time marchpast. or I might have got it wrong !

No they adopted a new badge not dissimilar in shape and colour to that of the RB.

Edited 11 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[adrian 1008]

thank you, I can remember it now

[PRC]

Apologies if this has been posted in the thread already.

At the time the course picture was taken, No.35 is believed to be the newly commissioned Thomas Sidney\Sydney Athron of the 21st Battalion, West Yorkshire Regiment and just a few months short of his 21st birthday. His MiC shows he went on to serve with the Royal Fusiliers and has him reaching the rank of Major.

Lieutenant Colonel Thomas Sydney Athron, Royal Engineers, would pass away in 1944 in Ceylon. User HarryH66 at FindaGrave has added a picture to their website of Thomas later on in his army career - I'm fairly sure they are one and the same man.

Image on the right sourced https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/47263019/thomas-sydney-athron

Image sourced for identity resolution purposes only, and all image rights remain with the original owners.

Cheers,
Peter

Edit. Apologies, I see it has already been covered and the image of him in later life posted.

Edited 24 April by PRC
24042024 reinstate image

[FROGSMILE]

What with the RE and the labour battalion/public schools battalion mix up he’s been thrashed to death Peter, not that it matters.  I wonder what he’d have thought had he known that over century later we’d be trying to pick his military career apart! 

Edited 11 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[adrian 1008]

can we review Image 8 and 25 both listed as Essex Rgt but the cap badges are different. The ;apel badges appear the same

 

[PRC]

I can see a picture of Vernon Holden, Queens Own, (Royal West Kent Regiment) has been previously posted, but for the purposes of comparing him to the features of the officer numbered as 49 on the very original posting.  As that man is not badged for the Royal West Kents, the comparison was dismissed.

There are two officers of the Royal West Kents who might have been present - Vernon Holden and Walter Hamilton Maxwell. However the course photo appears to have only one officer of the Royal West Kents. I've had a skim through of the thread but couldn't readily spot anything to indicate why that image was believed to be the 38 year old Walter Hamilton Maxwell rather than the 22 year old Vernon Holden.

As well as the picture posted earlier in the thread, which I believe was sourced from Forces War Records https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/dedication-wall/3512/vernon-holden
there is also a picture of Vernon on Lives of the First World War. https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/1924699

So putting those two together with officer No.2 in the course photo brings up this comparison.

All image rights remain with the original owners.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 24 April by PRC
1) Typos 2) 24042024 Reinstate image

[adrian 1008]

12 minutes ago, PRC said:

I can see a picture of Vernon Holden, Queens Own, (Royal West Kent Regiment) has been previously posted, but for the purposes of comparing him to the features of the officer numbered as 49 on the very original posting.  As that man is not badged for the Royal West Kents, the comparison was dismissed.

There are two officers of the Royal West Kents who might have been present - Vernon Holden and Walter Hamilton Maxwell. However the course photo appears to have only one officer of the Royal West Kents. I've had a skim through of the thread but couldn't readily spot anything to indicate why that image was believed to be the 38 year old Walter Hamilton Maxwell rather than the 22 year old Vernon Holden.

As well as the picture posted earlier in the thread, which I believe was sourced from Forces War Records https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/dedication-wall/3512/vernon-holden
there is also a picture of Vernon on Lives of the First World War. https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/1924699

So putting those two together with officer No.2 in the course photo brings up this comparison.

All image rights remain with the original owners.

Cheers,
Peter

 

I have two Royal West Surrey Officers 16 & 23 but only one Royal West Kent at Image 2

[FROGSMILE]

38 minutes ago, adrian 1008 said:

can we review Image 8 and 25 both listed as Essex Rgt but the cap badges are different. The ;apel badges appear the same

 

Here are Essex Regiment insignia for service dress in bronze.  I also include a silvered cap badge of the pattern officially for use on the coloured universal forage cap for wear with full dress tunic, other than in review order, or frock coat.  It’s not impossible that a new young officer might wear it on his khaki cap while awaiting the badge of correct type.  Numbers 8 and 25 still appear the same regiment to me. 

Edited 11 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

37 minutes ago, PRC said:

I can see a picture of Vernon Holden, Queens Own, (Royal West Kent Regiment) has been previously posted, but for the purposes of comparing him to the features of the officer numbered as 49 on the very original posting.  As that man is not badged for the Royal West Kents, the comparison was dismissed.

There are two officers of the Royal West Kents who might have been present - Vernon Holden and Walter Hamilton Maxwell. However the course photo appears to have only one officer of the Royal West Kents. I've had a skim through of the thread but couldn't readily spot anything to indicate why that image was believed to be the 38 year old Walter Hamilton Maxwell rather than the 22 year old Vernon Holden.

As well as the picture posted earlier in the thread, which I believe was sourced from Forces War Records https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/dedication-wall/3512/vernon-holden
there is also a picture of Vernon on Lives of the First World War. https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/1924699

So putting those two together with officer No.2 in the course photo brings up this comparison.

All image rights remain with the original owners.

Cheers,
Peter

 

I’ve no doubt that all three images show the same officer.  Number 2 in the originally numbered photograph.

[PRC]

27 minutes ago, adrian 1008 said:

I have two Royal West Surrey Officers 16 & 23 but only one Royal West Kent at Image 2

At the time of the course he was Royal West Kents - Vernon Holdens' association with the the Royal West Surreys comes later, and even then only on attachment.

At this point it looks like there is only one Royal West Kent officer in the course picture, but you pool of 51 names includes 2 Royal West Kent officers. I'm just checking how firm the identification of the officer in the picture is - giving his relatively youthful looks it's difficult to see him as the 38 year old Walter Hamilton Maxwell. If you then take into account the eyes, lower lip and chin of the three images I've posted, two of which have been identified as Vernon Holden, then hopefully you can see why I think he might be a better candidate.

We then have a pool of 51 names but ony 48 individuals in the picture.

One of the 51 was a no show, so won't be present, one was sick for 7 days, so might not be present, so take one of the Royal West Kent Regiment officers out of the picture, (no pun intended), then the pool of names and number of officers present in the picture would balance.

However, if there are additional officers who can't have been present because there is no one in the picture from that regiment, then you have a bigger problem that your pool of names isn't big enough.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 11 May , 2022 by PRC
Typo

[PRC]

The Imperial War Museum has a picture of Alfred Herbert Naish in their Bond of Sacrifice Portrait collection. https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205026130

At the time of the course Alfred Hernert Naish was a recently commissioned 2nd Lieutenant in the 20th (Pioneer) Battalion, Kings Royal Rifle Corps and was then aged 37. He would be killed in action on the 13th July 1916 still serving with that Battalion, and rests in Carnoy Military Cemetery.

The course photograph has four officers of the K.R.R.C on show, three who are definately Pioneers, (Numbers 10, 33 & 44) and one who is probably not, (48 on the latest numbered picture, 49 on the original).

Compared to the IWM picture, I think 33 and 48/49 can be ruled out by some combination of facial proportions, colouring, size and youthfulness.

That leaves just 10 and 44 - who gets your vote

All image rights remain with the original owners.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited 24 April by PRC
1) Typo's 2) 24042024 Reinstate images

[FROGSMILE]

14 minutes ago, PRC said:

The Imperial War Museum has a picture of Alfred Herbert Naish in their Bond of Sacrifice Portrait collection. https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205026130

At the time of the course Alfred Hernert Naish was a recently commissioned 2nd Lieutenant in the 20th (Pioneer) Battalion, Kings Royal Rifle Corps and was then aged 37. He would be killed in action on the 13th July 1916 still serving with that Battalion, and rests in Carnoy Military Cemetery.

The course photograph has four officers of the K.R.R.C on show, three who are definately Pioneers, (Numbers 10, 33 & 44) and one who is probably not, (48 on the latest numbered picture, 49 on the original).

Compared to the IWM picture, I think 33 and 48/49 can be ruled out by some combination of facial proportions, colouring, size and youthfulness.

That leaves just 10 and 44 - who gets your vote

All image rights remain with the original owners.

Cheers,
Peter

44 for me Peter, without a doubt.  Facial features matching very clearly, the eyes particularly so.

Edited 11 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

The course photograph contains two Essex Regiment officers, (Numbers 8 and 25), and the two candidates are William Brown Paterson, then aged 24, and George Wheeler, aged 18 years 7 months.

William Brown Paterson, 3rd Battalion attached 13th Battalion Essex Regiment was killed in action on the 28th April 1917, aged 26. He has no known grave and is remembered on the Arras Memorial. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/1603422/william-brown-paterson/

He also has his picture in the Bond of Sacrifice collection. https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205386868

Here's William in the middle with the two Essex Regiment candidates either side. Bear in mind that whichever one is a match for William Brown Paterson should mean the other is George Wheeler so it's a twofer.

Cheers,
Peter

Edit to add: All image rights remain with the original sources.

Edited 24 April by PRC
24/04/2024 - Re-instate image

[adrian 1008]

Peter thank you for showing these two. My earlier question remains. They have different cap badges, whilst I recognise the Essex Cap Badge in 25

Image 8 appears to have a different badge. The lapel badges appear the same or am I missing the point and there are different cap badges for parts of the Rgt

[PRC]

1 minute ago, adrian 1008 said:

Peter thank you for showing these two. My earlier question remains. They have different cap badges, whilst I recognise the Essex Cap Badge in 25

Image 8 appears to have a different badge. The lapel badges appear the same or am I missing the point and there are different cap badges for parts of the Rgt

@FROGSMILE has already set out a scenario that would account for that.

2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I also include a silvered cap badge of the pattern officially for use on the coloured universal forage cap for wear with full dress tunic, other than in review order, or frock coat.  It’s not impossible that a new young officer might wear it on his khaki cap while awaiting the badge of correct type.  Numbers 8 and 25 still appear the same regiment to me. 

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

8 minutes ago, PRC said:

@FROGSMILE has already set out a scenario that would account for that.

Cheers,
Peter

If someone can provide me with a quality head and shoulders shot of each officer, 8 and 25, I’ll see if I can provide any further information.  Adrian has the best original images with which to work and so they should be the source.  The cap badges are the same, but one is either silver as explained earlier, or simply highly reflected ambient light at the time of the photo’s exposure.

Edited 11 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[FROGSMILE]

16 minutes ago, PRC said:

The course photograph contains two Essex Regiment officers, (Numbers 8 and 25), and the two candidates are William Brown Paterson, then aged 24, and George Wheeler, aged 18 years 7 months.

William Brown Paterson, 3rd Battalion attached 13th Battalion Essex Regiment was killed in action on the 28th April 1917, aged 26. He has no known grave and is remembered on the Arras Memorial. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/1603422/william-brown-paterson/

He also has his picture in the Bond of Sacrifice collection. https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205386868

Here's William in the middle with the two Essex Regiment candidates either side. Bear in mind that whichever one is a match for William Brown Paterson should mean the other is George Wheeler so it's a twofer.

Cheers,
Peter

William Brown Paterson is Number 8 for me.  Again quite clear facial resemblance, although he put on a little weight before he died.  I hope it was foie gras and champagne.

Edited 11 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE