Some Officers of Kitchener's New Armies

[PRC]

The course photograph is believed to show three men of the Kings Own (Royal Lancaster Regiment) - numbers 7, 41 and 45.

The candidates are Samuel William Cherry, aged 18 at the time of the course, Raymond Stuart Tanner, aged 34, and William Slade Vincent, aged 18 years, 5 months.

Officer 45 has been identifed to be wearing the ribbon of the Queens' South Africa medal, and so is believed to be the oldest of the three, Raymond Stuart Tanner.

The Australian Virtual War Memorial (AVWM) has a picture of William Slade Vincent, born London 1899. (The birth of a William Slade Vincent was registered with the civil authorities in the Brentford District of Middlesex in Q2 1899).  This would have made William 16 rather than 18 when he was commissioned with effect from the 4th December 1915.

The AVWM page for him records that he was a former military officer, and died of Pulmonary Tuberculosis, at the Heathcote Reception Centre, Perth, Western Australia, on the 12th November 1934. It also includes a contemporary newspaper article. 

A number of returned men attended the funeral of the late Captain William Slade Vincent  D.S.O., M.C.,  of the King's Own Royal Lanchashire Regiment and of the Royal Air Force, whose remains were brought from Perth on.Wednesday, November 14th, and  interred in the Anglican portion of the Moora cemetery.  The body, draped in the Australian flag; was conveyed from the train by Mr D. G. Baker to the Soldiers' memorial, from where the funeral procession proceeded to the cemetery. The Rev. F. W. Gunning officiated and the Last Post was sounded by bugler Arthur Black. https://vwma.org.au/explore/people/803543

As the picture is of such low quality it's difficult to make a side by side comparison - not helped by the unfortunate low quality of one of the candidates.

It's a difficult call, but I'm leaning towards it being a match for No. 7, although I have to admit not with much conviction

All image rights remain with the original sources.

Cheers,
Peter

 

Edited Wednesday at 17:38 by PRC
1)Typo 2) 24042024 Reinstate image

[FROGSMILE]

38 minutes ago, PRC said:

The course photograph is believed to show three men of the Kings Own (Royal Lancaster Regiment) - numbers 7, 41 and 45.

The candidates are Samuel William Cherry, aged 18 at the time of the course, Raymond Stuart Tanner, aged 34, and William Slade Vincent, aged 18 years, 5 months.

Officer 45 has been identifed to be wearing the ribbon of the Queens' South Africa medal, and so is believed to be the oldest of the three, Raymond Stuart Tanner.

The Australian Virtual War Memorial (AVWM) has a picture of William Slade Vincent, born London 1899. (The birth of a William Slade Vincent was registered with the civil authorities in the Brentford District of Middlesex in Q2 1899).  This would have made William 16 rather than 18 when he was commissioned with effect from the 4th December 1915.

The AVWM page for him records that he was a former military officer, and died of Pulmonary Tuberculosis, at the Heathcote Reception Centre, Perth, Western Australia, on the 12th November 1934. It also includes a contemporary newspaper article. 

A number of returned men attended the funeral of the late Captain William Slade Vincent  D.S.O., M.C.,  of the King's Own Royal Lanchashire Regiment and of the Royal Air Force, whose remains were brought from Perth on.Wednesday, November 14th, and  interred in the Anglican portion of the Moora cemetery.  The body, draped in the Australian flag; was conveyed from the train by Mr D. G. Baker to the Soldiers' memorial, from where the funeral procession proceeded to the cemetery. The Rev. F. W. Gunning officiated and the Last Post was sounded by bugler Arthur Black. https://vwma.org.au/explore/people/803543

As the picture is of such low quality it's difficult to make a side by side comparison - not helped by the unfortunate low quality of one of the candidates.

It's a difficult call, but I'm leaning towards it being a match for No. 7, although I have to admit not with much conviction

All image rights remain with the original sources.

Cheers,
Peter

 

I’ve pored over this more challenging comparison for much longer than the others Peter, and after careful deliberation and a good deal of squinting I’m happy to concur with you that number 7 is our match.

Edited 11 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

The course photograph is believed to contain 2 officers of the Hampshire Regiment - numbers 26 and 31.

In the pool of candidates there are two Hampshire Regiment men - Stanley Curley James Martin, aged 33 when he attended the course, and Lawrence Arthur Westmore, aged 21.

The Radley College War Memorial account on Flickr has a picture of Lawrence Arthur Westmore - perhaps not surprising as the 1911 Census of England & Wales records the 16 year old Lawrence Arthur Westmore, born Streatham, Surrey as a resident scholar at the college. https://www.flickr.com/photos/radley_college_war_memorial/8551952762/in/photostream/

Lawrence was killed in action on the 1st July 1916 serving with the 1st Battalion. He is buried in the Sucrerie Military Cemetery, Colincamps, France.

I believe Lawrence is officer number 26.
That would make officer number 31 Stanley Curley James Martin, who did not long outlive his fellow course mate. He would die of wounds on the 25th July 1916 serving with the 15th Battalion.

All image rights remain with the original sources.

Cheers,
Peter

[FROGSMILE]

9 hours ago, PRC said:

The course photograph is believed to contain 2 officers of the Hampshire Regiment - numbers 26 and 31.

In the pool of candidates there are two Hampshire Regiment men - Stanley Curley James Martin, aged 33 when he attended the course, and Lawrence Arthur Westmore, aged 21.

The Radley College War Memorial account on Flickr has a picture of Lawrence Arthur Westmore - perhaps not surprising as the 1911 Census of England & Wales records the 16 year old Lawrence Arthur Westmore, born Streatham, Surrey as a resident scholar at the college. https://www.flickr.com/photos/radley_college_war_memorial/8551952762/in/photostream/

Lawrence was killed in action on the 1st July 1916 serving with the 1st Battalion. He is buried in the Sucrerie Military Cemetery, Colincamps, France.

I believe Lawrence is officer number 26.
That would make officer number 31 Stanley Curley James Martin, who did not long outlive his fellow course mate. He would die of wounds on the 25th July 1916 serving with the 15th Battalion.

All image rights remain with the original sources.

Cheers,
Peter

I agree that number 26 matches perfectly with the Radley college photo of Lawrence Westmore, Peter, and as you say Stanley Martin must be the other officer, number 31.  You’re really on a roll with these identifications now.  Brilliant work!

Edited 12 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[adrian 1008]

15 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

If someone can provide me with a quality head and shoulders shot of each officer, 8 and 25, I’ll see if I can provide any further information.  Adrian has the best original images with which to work and so they should be the source.  The cap badges are the same, but one is either silver as explained earlier, or simply highly reflected ambient light at the time of the photo’s exposure.

Thank you that makes it clear

[adrian 1008]

Spent the day updating the spreadsheets

Here is the summary with evidential support 29 now identified

One anomaly i have concerns D of Cornwall Light Inf at Image 22 two candidates John Balhatchet Slee age 20 nearly 21 and Charles Harcourt Turner aged 30

Please check the latest posting for the most up to date  version starting V1

Evidential chart Wadham college.pdf

Edited 12 May , 2022 by adrian 1008
clarity

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, adrian 1008 said:

Spent the day updating the spreadsheets

Here is the summary with evidential support 29 now identified

One anomaly i have concerns D of Cornwall Light Inf at Image 22 two candidates John Balhatchet Slee age 20 nearly 21 and Charles Harcourt Turner aged 30

Evidential chart Wadham college.pdf 145.8 kB · 0 downloads

Going by the unscientific, appearance of his age method, my vote would go for the younger, John Slee.  Perhaps if a college or family tree photo could be found it might be possible to confirm.

Edited 12 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[adrian 1008]

51 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Going on the unscientific appearance of his age my vote would go for the younger, John Slee.  Perhaps if a college or family tree photo could be found it might be possible to confirm.

An Ancestry and FMP search reveals John Bahatchet Slee was born in June 1890, initially enrolled as 107806 Gnr RFA discharged to commission Dec 1915 image courtesy of FMP...... He has black hair

[FROGSMILE]

16 minutes ago, adrian 1008 said:

An Ancestry and FMP search reveals John Bahatchet Slee was born in June 1890, initially enrolled as 107806 Gnr RFA discharged to commission Dec 1915 image courtesy of FMP...... He has black hair

Along with a very pronounced dimple in his chin, number 22 certainly seems to have dark hair, as far as we can see emerging from his cap.

[PRC]

1 hour ago, adrian 1008 said:

Here is the summary with evidential support 29 now identified

Identification of Officer No. 2.

Walter Hamilton Maxwell is not the only officer of the Royal West Kents on the course. Vernon Holden is also believed to be an attendee and facially is a good match.

On 11/05/2022 at 15:47, PRC said:

I can see a picture of Vernon Holden, Queens Own, (Royal West Kent Regiment) has been previously posted, but for the purposes of comparing him to the features of the officer numbered as 49 on the very original posting.  As that man is not badged for the Royal West Kents, the comparison was dismissed.

There are two officers of the Royal West Kents who might have been present - Vernon Holden and Walter Hamilton Maxwell. However the course photo appears to have only one officer of the Royal West Kents. I've had a skim through of the thread but couldn't readily spot anything to indicate why that image was believed to be the 38 year old Walter Hamilton Maxwell rather than the 22 year old Vernon Holden.

As well as the picture posted earlier in the thread, which I believe was sourced from Forces War Records https://www.forces-war-records.co.uk/dedication-wall/3512/vernon-holden
there is also a picture of Vernon on Lives of the First World War. https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/lifestory/1924699

So putting those two together with officer No.2 in the course photo brings up this comparison.

All image rights remain with the original owners.

Cheers,
Peter

 

It may be that Number 2 need to be shown as "Either Holden or Maxwell" in your chart.

Cheers,
Peter

[adrian 1008]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

Identification of Officer No. 2.

Walter Hamilton Maxwell is not the only officer of the Royal West Kents on the course. Vernon Holden is also believed to be an attendee and facially is a good match.

It may be that Number 2 need to be shown as "Either Holden or Maxwell" in your chart.

Cheers,
Peter

Peter ,Thank you for the check and challenge I think Vernon Holden is the more likely candidate.  As you have noted previously Walter Hamilton Maxwell was born 1877 and joined Kings L Pool Rgt 19/01/1902. His MIC shows him " Gold Coast Rgt" Aged 38 in 1915

Holden was aged 22 from Crowborough W Sussex commissioned to 10th Btn

unless challenged I will amend V2 to show Holden as image 2 

[FROGSMILE]

11 minutes ago, adrian 1008 said:

Peter ,Thank you for the check and challenge I think Vernon Holden is the more likely candidate.  As you have noted previously Walter Hamilton Maxwell was born 1877 and joined Kings L Pool Rgt 19/01/1902. His MIC shows him " Gold Coast Rgt" Aged 38 in 1915

Holden was aged 22 from Crowborough W Sussex commissioned to 10th Btn

unless challenged I will amend V2 to show Holden as image 2 

Yes, I think that when Peter very usefully put two other photos of Vernon Holden, alongside officer number 2, they all three matched.  The likeness between them was pronounced.

 

Edited 12 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[adrian 1008]

Updated Version 2

Change showing Image 2 Now as Vernon Holden age 22 from Crowborough W Sussex Queens own Royal West Kent Rgt 10th Btn

Wadham chart V2 PDF.pdf

[FROGSMILE]

4 minutes ago, Jim Mitchell said:

 

Thank you Jim.  That’s another good view of 2Lt Athron wearing Princes of Wales’s Own West Yorkshire Regiment insignia, with pioneer collar insignia above that of his regiment.

Edited 13 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

@Jim Mitchell 's post appears to have been hidden, so hopefully he will not mind if I add a slightly cleaned up version into the panel comparing the image of Lieutenant Colonel Thomas Sydney Athron to the believed image of him in the course photograph.

Cheers,
Peter

Edit to add - All image rights remain with the original sources

Edited Wednesday at 17:37 by PRC
24/04/2024 - Re-instate image

[FROGSMILE]

50 minutes ago, PRC said:

@Jim Mitchell 's post appears to have been hidden, so hopefully he will not mind if I add a slightly cleaned up version into the panel comparing the image of Lieutenant Colonel Thomas Sydney Athron to the believed image of him in the course photograph.

Cheers,
Peter

 

Your comparing photos in this style works brilliantly Peter.  It’s really quite poignant to see how Thomas Athron aged between the earliest photo, taken in WW1, and the photo just before he died, during WW2.

[adrian 1008]

Another Positive identification

12 is John Stuart Henderson Chalmers, confirmed by photo of JSHC in a group of Officers of 4th Btn taken at Seaham ? August 1914

JSHC went on to become Battalion Adjutant.

I have written to the Durham County Archivist for permission to share on this forum as there are listed other Officers that may be of benefit to others

[PRC]

On 13/05/2022 at 15:03, FROGSMILE said:

Your comparing photos in this style works brilliantly Peter.

Just hope it helps with coming to a decision over whether or not they are all the same man. More than happy for the panel of pictures to be challenged - I'm not definatively saying they are all the same man. In this case I'm reasonably confident they are,  but if an alternative is presented it should be considered.

And if we can nail down what any of them looks like, then raises the chances they can be identified in other likely groups of unknown individuals.

On 13/05/2022 at 16:12, adrian 1008 said:

12 is John Stuart Henderson Chalmers, confirmed by photo of JSHC in a group of Officers of 4th Btn taken at Seaham ? August 1914

May well be correct, and will be interesting to see if his rank can be established to help date it, but the 4th Battalion did not arrive at Seaham until September 1915 according to the LLT, and never served overseas. His commissioning with effect from the 4th December 1915 occurred in the London Gazette dated 3rd December 1915. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29390/page/12069

However MiC is very confusing:-

Image courtesy Ancestry - there is nothing on the reverse.

Looks like he first served with the Natal Light Hussars, (Horse?) and saw service with the British Expeditionary Force, landing in France on the 30th August 1914, but only qualifies for the 1914/15 Star which is issued by the South African authorities.

I thing the reality is that he saw service in South Africa \ German South West Africa during the fighting there in the early months of the year.

What we don't know from that is whether he saw service overseas as an officer with the Durham Light Infantry.

Looks like there may also be a Pension Ledger Card for him, and Ancestry has a number of references to a J S H Chalmers in RAF operational logs. As that recordset spans 1911-1963 it could be a completely different individual or reflect WW2 or interwar service.

Cheers,
Peter

Edited Wednesday at 17:36 by PRC
1)Typo 2) 24042024 Reinstate image

[Charles Fair]

12 minutes ago, PRC said:

However MiC is very confusing:-

Image courtesy Ancestry - there is nothing on the reverse.

Looks like he first served with the Natal Light Hussars, (Horse?) and saw service with the British Expeditionary Force, landing in France on the 30th August 1914, but only qualifies for the 1914/15 Star which is issued by the South African authorities.

I thing the reality is that he saw service in South Africa \ German South West Africa during the fighting there in the early months of the year.

This is consistent with his registration form for the course which says Natal Light Horse, Trooper. (Pencil note written by DS). 

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, PRC said:

Just hope it helps with coming to a decision over whether or not they are all the same man. More than happy for the panel of pictures to be challenged - I'm not definatively saying they are all the same man. In this case I'm reasonably confident they are,  but if an alternative is presented it should be considered.

And if we can nail down what any of them looks like, then raises the chances they can be identified in other likely groups of unknown individuals.

May well be correct, and will be interesting to see if his rank can be established to help date it, but the 4th Battalion did not arrive at Seaham until September 1915 according to the LLT, and never served overseas. His commissioning with effect from the 4th December 1915 occurred in the London Gazette dated 3rd December 1915. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29390/page/12069

However MiC is very confusing:-

Image courtesy Ancestry - there is nothing on the reverse.

Looks like he first served with the Natal Light Hussars, (Horse?) and saw service with the British Expeditionary Force, landing in France on the 30th August 1914, but only qualifies for the 1914/15 Star which is issued by the South African authorities.

I thing the reality is that he saw service in South Africa \ German South West Africa during the fighting there in the early months of the year.

What we don't know from that is whether he saw service overseas as an officer with the Durham Light Infantry.

Looks like there may also be a Pension Ledger Card for him, and Ancestry has a number of references to a J S H Chalmers in RAF operational logs. As that recordset spans 1911-1963 it could be a completely different individual or reflect WW2 or interwar service.

Cheers,
Peter

Yes I completely understand that.  All I can say for my own part is that I carefully consider my response and if unsure I’ll say so.  It helps that I’ve spent my entire life around individuals in a people focused business, all wearing an often similar uniform, and having to differentiate between them visually at a glance.  Whilst not entirely infallible It has greatly helped me in this particular endeavour and others like it.

Edited 13 May , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

@adrian 1008

Just made a possible serendipitous mistake that you might want to check out with the Durham County Archivist.

Was trying out the Durham County Record Office website with a few searches of my own and accidentally typed Eliff instead of Elliff - and got a record of a potential photograph match.

Caption starts, (my highlight in red):-

Ref: D/DLI 7/230/1

Group photograph, right half only, of officers of a Reserve Battalion, probably 3/5th Battalion, The Durham Light Infantry, Sutton-on-Hull, Yorkshire, 9 July 1918 Names on cropped photograph caption are as follows: Back row: Eliff; Lieutenant H.H. Beck; Lieutenant W.L. Campbell; Lieutenant A.H.Polge; Lieutenant A.C. Alexander; Lieutenant A.S. Green; Lieutenant H.C. Randall;................

The August 1918 British Army List has both an M.Eliff and an M.Elliff in the index - but both are shown as being listed in column 1440e. That is the 22nd Battalion of Durham Light Infantry. It has a Captain M. Elliff with seniority from the 27th March 1918 but there is no M. Eliff. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/120469350

BTW same column shows Lieutenant G.C. Reay, (seniority 23rd February 1917) and J. Williams, (seniority 1st July 1917).

Cheers,
Peter

[adrian 1008]

Than

20 minutes ago, PRC said:

@adrian 1008

Just made a possible serendipitous mistake that you might want to check out with the Durham County Archivist.

Was trying out the Durham County Record Office website with a few searches of my own and accidentally typed Eliff instead of Elliff - and got a record of a potential photograph match.

Caption starts, (my highlight in red):-

Ref: D/DLI 7/230/1

Group photograph, right half only, of officers of a Reserve Battalion, probably 3/5th Battalion, The Durham Light Infantry, Sutton-on-Hull, Yorkshire, 9 July 1918 Names on cropped photograph caption are as follows: Back row: Eliff; Lieutenant H.H. Beck; Lieutenant W.L. Campbell; Lieutenant A.H.Polge; Lieutenant A.C. Alexander; Lieutenant A.S. Green; Lieutenant H.C. Randall;................

The August 1918 British Army List has both an M.Eliff and an M.Elliff in the index - but both are shown as being listed in column 1440e. That is the 22nd Battalion of Durham Light Infantry. It has a Captain M. Elliff with seniority from the 27th March 1918 but there is no M. Eliff. https://digital.nls.uk/british-military-lists/archive/120469350

BTW same column shows Lieutenant G.C. Reay, (seniority 23rd February 1917) and J. Williams, (seniority 1st July 1917).

Cheers,
Peter

Thank you Peter

I will challenge the D L I on Monday as two searches have cost £70 and only found two names. I would have thought they would have tried variations on a name!

[adrian 1008]

The search continues! 

I have written to Hampshire Rgt Museum looking for images to identify Cecil James Simpson Martin age 33

and Lawrence Arthur Westmore age 21 Images 26 and 31

attached is CJS Martin MIC (courtesy of Ancestry) There appears a lot on it am I missing anything....... can we identify by ages alone 33 vs 21 ?

 

[PRC]

18 minutes ago, adrian 1008 said:

attached is CJS Martin MIC (courtesy of Ancestry) There appears a lot on it am I missing anything....... can we identify by ages alone 33 vs 21 ?

 

Apologies if I've missed something that's brought this man into consideration. This appears to be a Queens Regiment man rather than a Hampshire Regiment one, was serving in the ranks with the 4th Battalion at the time of the 1917 Territorial Force renumbering, (new service number 200118) and was commissioned into the Indian Army on the 18th October 1918.

I've previously suggested the Hampshire Regiment man present is actually Stanley Curley James Martin - commissioned into the Hampshire Regiment in the right time frame with most of the others on the course, (London Gazette Supplement 16th December 1915, with effect from the 2nd December 1915). https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29404/supplement/12549

Sadly Stanley would die of wounds on the 25th July 1916, aged 33 and serving with the 15th Battalion. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/200659/stanley-curley-james-martin/

Cheers,
Peter

[adrian 1008]

6 minutes ago, PRC said:

Apologies if I've missed something that's brought this man into consideration. This appears to be a Queens Regiment man rather than a Hampshire Regiment one, was serving in the ranks with the 4th Battalion at the time of the 1917 Territorial Force renumbering, (new service number 200118) and was commissioned into the Indian Army on the 18th October 1918.

I've previously suggested the Hampshire Regiment man present is actually Stanley Curley James Martin - commissioned into the Hampshire Regiment in the right time frame with most of the others on the course, (London Gazette Supplement 16th December 1915, with effect from the 2nd December 1915). https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29404/supplement/12549

Sadly Stanley would die of wounds on the 25th July 1916, aged 33 and serving with the 15th Battalion. https://www.cwgc.org/find-records/find-war-dead/casualty-details/200659/stanley-curley-james-martin/

Cheers,
Peter

I ve put the wrong Martin in !!! Ammending my papers sorry Peter