Steve1871 Posted 2 January , 2023 Author Share Posted 2 January , 2023 (edited) Bayonet #85 1/1/23 S.71 Wurttenberg PFM Spine. None. Maker. Gebr Weyersberg ( Think). Unit. 13.P.E.2.45. 13th Pionier Battalion, 2nd Ersatz Kompany Waffe 45 One of the Rarest of the S.71 family, the maker is mostly worn away. There are either 3 or 4 types, only differ in the Fullers. As you see, Squared base/ tapered front.in very good shape Scabbard with Frog. Scabbard leather above average, throat stamped, chape, great, final has a good size dent in one side. On The other types of S.71’s, the final had a brass staple on one side to lock on leather body. This type scabbard has brass staples on both sides. As rare as this bayonet is. The scabbard for it is even more rare. Frog in good shape for it’s age, darker on front, still has brown on back. Edited 2 January , 2023 by Steve1871 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyBsk Posted 2 January , 2023 Share Posted 2 January , 2023 Certainly a scarce piece, Wurttemberg PFM1871, the maker should be as mentioned Gebr.Weyersberg, the unit is Wurttemberg 13.Pionier Batallion , Ersatz part of unit, 2.Company and weapon nr, the frog is very well preserved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trajan Posted 2 January , 2023 Share Posted 2 January , 2023 A rare piece and a lovely example of one as well! Best Christmas/New Year's present to oneself I can think of, Steve! Julian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafal1971 Posted 2 January , 2023 Share Posted 2 January , 2023 Hallo my friends, Forgive me Steve, but ... I know it's rarae bayonet etc. etc. The frog looks Balkan or Turkish to me. And I have big doubts about the flat spring. Mayby it may be a raplecement in the era originally broken. For comparision, my "spring". All tne best in new 2023 and peace in the world Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 2 January , 2023 Author Share Posted 2 January , 2023 Hey Rafal No problem’s with your comment.I think my frog here is correct German, check A. Carter book on frogs. On the leaf spring on mine. It look’s like the end or “ elbow” where it turns up is just slightly bent. It still works perfectly. From a strait on view. You do not even see it. It shows some age discoloration for steel for it’s age. It also matches the steel cross guard in tone.. I believe it to be original. These Wurttemberg PFM’s saw very little use, so is in above average condition. I love the fact that you have one! Just showing a part of your’s is teasing me. Can you PLEASE do a nice post on yours for us on the forum! Thank’s for the pic and comment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafal1971 Posted 2 January , 2023 Share Posted 2 January , 2023 Steve, I respect my first (German) bayonet master Anthony Carter very much, but the "drawing" publication about frogs of the world is quite "poor" for the present times. Our role is to complement and correct it. As Roy and Christian did and we try a little ... I suggest you purchase Roy Williams' publication on German frogs. It does not exhaust the topic but it is currently the best on the market and it will be hard for anyone to match Roy. It is a pity that he failed to realize his publishing plans about the bayonets of the Third Reich ... My Wirttenberg Pionier. If you wish any photos of its parts - write. I don't have it yet with a long fuller but maybe someday I will get it Best Rafal P.S. And I envy you a few bayonets anyway ... Damn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyBsk Posted 2 January , 2023 Share Posted 2 January , 2023 (edited) Very nice item too, there should be looked for german literature for Ruediger or others, Carter is good for starting, anyway as its already 50 years old there are many errors mainly on frogs and on some bayonets too. About this frog i am uncertain, as by Wurttemberg could be different modells as by Prussian, question remains its a period repair with rivets. But the frog looks old and is for large heavy blade. About the locking lug spring is probably Rafal right, could be replaced in time, looks too small for the hole. From the Ruediger book Rafal has the first type, made with older M1860 Artillerie blades. Steve has the second II. made by Gebr.Weyersberg blades. Edited 2 January , 2023 by AndyBsk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 2 January , 2023 Author Share Posted 2 January , 2023 Rafal. little confused on your text? You say you no have one yet with a long fuller. Are you getting another one? The one you show here, those are the sellers photo’s on layaway? It is a great piece! Both of ours here are from SAME EXACT UNIT. 13th Wurttemberg Pionier Battalion, second Kompany!!!!!!!!!!!! how rare is that, fantastic I will ALWAYS wish I had your’s too. You probably think the same Last two for sale, £3700 think in U.K. And $4200 in U.S., at these prices, I will never afford any more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 2 January , 2023 Author Share Posted 2 January , 2023 Rafal and Andy we will never know for sure on the leaf spring, but even if it is a replacement, there is no damage to pommel, and it would be a period replacement as seen by the same aging/ tone on the cross guard. I am still very satisfied with this rare piece. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafal1971 Posted 2 January , 2023 Share Posted 2 January , 2023 As I have my voice. I'm interested in the number 119 on the upper fitting. It's not the first time I've seen it on German scabbards. I don't think it's German. Czech, Austro-Hungarian warehouse ? What do you think Andy? :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyBsk Posted 2 January , 2023 Share Posted 2 January , 2023 There is 1194 probably, could be inventory stamp, as some of PFM were delivered to Austria with Gew88 in WW1 teoretically it could be one of this? but i am not certain about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafal1971 Posted 2 January , 2023 Share Posted 2 January , 2023 Steve Württemberg had only one pioneer/sapper battalion -13. and 4 companies. We have different gun numbers There are two variants of the pioneering Würtenberg bayonets - LONG AND SHORT ROOF Yes - such crazy cans for this bayonet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 2 January , 2023 Author Share Posted 2 January , 2023 Where is the # 119 ? I no see it? the chape, or upper fitting is covered by the frog, except the frog stud, looked all photo’s posted and no see 119? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyBsk Posted 2 January , 2023 Share Posted 2 January , 2023 (edited) From Ruediger pg.134 Rafals blade started life as Artillerie Hau Bajonett M1860 made of 3000 pcs by Gebr.Weyersberg Solingen. In that time Pioniere had no similar weapons. In late 60ies was changed the armament of Jaeger and Pionier units with M1860/70 rifle and reworked Faschinenmesser of M1860 type. Since 1876 they were rearmed with Jägerbuchse M1871 and the old blades of M1860 were partly used by reworking to PFM1871 with new M1871 handle. The old blade is typical by fullers ended with rectangular end. The newer PFM 1871 production as visible by Steve was with lower end of fuller cylindrical. The 1194 is on mouth piece of scabbard vertically oriented under unit stamp. Edited 2 January , 2023 by AndyBsk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafal1971 Posted 2 January , 2023 Share Posted 2 January , 2023 You have right 1194 Raf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyBsk Posted 2 January , 2023 Share Posted 2 January , 2023 (edited) Steve did You see the unit on Your scabbard? Or is the frog too tigh on the scabbard and no visible the unit stamp, maybe similar inventory stamp as 1194 could be on this weapon too. Edited 2 January , 2023 by AndyBsk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 2 January , 2023 Author Share Posted 2 January , 2023 Andy. Yes, too tight and stiff to try pry frog off. Would be great if matching, but no try break just to see Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 2 January , 2023 Author Share Posted 2 January , 2023 Andy. which vol. of Ruediger please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafal1971 Posted 2 January , 2023 Share Posted 2 January , 2023 48 minutes ago, Steve1871 said: Andy. Yes, too tight and stiff to try pry frog off. Would be great if matching, but no try break just to see Steve It is enough to slightly tilt the back part of the frog loop and you will see whether there is a mark on the upper fitting of the scabbard. The skin as you can see is soft and elastic. There is no need to take it off. German frogs are often stiff. Balkan and Spanish similar to German soft like ... bla bla :-) But nothing by force Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 2 January , 2023 Author Share Posted 2 January , 2023 It will be long time before I get back home to look for it. I am about 2900 Km away right now, fighting snow, next load send me farther away. A trucker in America Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafal1971 Posted 2 January , 2023 Share Posted 2 January , 2023 21 minutes ago, Steve1871 said: It will be long time before I get back home to look for it. I am about 2900 Km away right now, fighting snow, next load send me farther away. A trucker in America Patience is the collector's middle name Best Rafal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 2 January , 2023 Author Share Posted 2 January , 2023 Raf just double check my photo’s ( my digital library), and mine is same length as your’s, You thought only 2 types, differ in fuller only. There are at least 3 types, maybe , 4. I not sure. I do not have Rudiger’s vol. 3 with me to check Fullers. a. Squared base with tapered end. b. Squared off, both ends- like yours. c. Squared base, tapered end, but longer and whole fuller is thinner than other two Without vol. 3 or another book showing various types, I do not know if they ever had one with a fuller, tapered on both ends Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 2 January , 2023 Author Share Posted 2 January , 2023 Wurttemberg units I no know how many Kompany’s they had, but Wirt. 13th Pionier Ersatz Battalion had at least 5 Kompanies, anyone know if they had more? I would think that each of these Ersatz Kompanys were issued with the same Double edge PFM bayonets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Mortimer Posted 2 January , 2023 Share Posted 2 January , 2023 According to this site they had exactly 5 companies over the 4 years of war: August 7th 1914 Founding of 2 Recruit Depots August 8th 1914 Founding of 1st-3rd Ersatz Kompanie May 1915 Founding of 4th Ersatz Kompanie and 3rd Recruit Depot January 27 1918 Founding of 5th Ersatz Kompanie (stationed in Wassigny) Both Rafal's and Steve's bayonets would've been stamped (at the very latest!) in the later 2nd half of 1914. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve1871 Posted 3 January , 2023 Author Share Posted 3 January , 2023 Thank’s Sir Mortimer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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