Imperial German Bayonet’s from my Collection

[Steve1871]

That is a Funky looking “D” then🤪

[Steve1871]

Bayonet  #80.            
9/25/22

S.98 Quillback

Spine.        Crown/W/06.  Small Crown/no read  

Maker        E &F  Horster    Solingen       
Unit           77.R( script). 2.107     
77th Reserve Infantry Regiment, 2 Co. #107

Ovrrall fairly dark from age with grease/oil    
Proofs in all right places.crisp one on lower face of guard, not al always marked there.

Main thing about this set is the ersatz Steel scabbard. The slim type for the Quill bayonets ( broader type for sawbacks). This is the more common “design “ to show tooling  like the leather body’s do.. this one is simply 2 parallel lines, open top and bottom. The base of the frog stud is little odd, welds more crude in form. Looks to be original paint

 

Edited 26 September , 2022 by Steve1871

[trajan]

Yet more lovely ones Steve! I have only ever seen 1 S.98 over here...

Julian

[Steve1871]

Bayonet #81.       
12/1/22

S.98nA. Quill

Spine           AR 04.   Saxon
Maker.        Simson & Co.  Suhl
Unit.           None ( sadly) 

has all the right proofs/ stamps in right places.the screw stamps are more clear than average. The main things about this piece is of coarse a Saxon piece. Also, on Ricasso there is an (S and 1) with a rampant Lion stamping. I have never seen this before. Anyone else seen this stamp before/ have one in your collection??, the grip’s are light, but a little bruised.        
the other thing is the Steel replacement scabbard. Based simply on my observations, my collection and a few dozen others ( photos) on various web sites and 3 of my collector friends bayonets. The most common of the steel Ersatz scabbards are the slim type ( like this) but have a ball final and the stamping of the scabbard has the imprint ( mimic tooling on leather bodies) of two parallel lines, open on top. This one has no final, and a connecting line across top joining the two lines together. 

[Sir Mortimer]

1 hour ago, Steve1871 said:

Also, on Ricasso there is an (S and 1) with a rampant Lion stamping. I have never seen this before. Anyone else seen this stamp before/ have one in your collection?

That's a czech lion with the typical "letters left" and "numbers right". This thing saw post-war service in the newly found czechoslovakian state. You also see this mark on  czech VZ-24 bayonets.

[Steve1871]

Thank you Sir Mortimer! Just add’s more character and life to a Imperial Saxon bayonet from 1904. Anything different gives the collector the excuse to add to the collection😊

[AndyBsk]

Nice S98/nA from Saxony, there is GR for Georg Rex, 1904 is the last date. the S lion 1 is a czechoslovak inventory stamp, determined the first divisional depot of CS Army located in Prague. Majority of that bayonets were send to Yugoslavia. Similar rectangular lion in box was never used on Vz24 bayonets.

 

Edited 2 December , 2022 by AndyBsk

[Steve1871]

Bayonet #82.        
12/10/22

S.98aA Quill back

Spine.        02
Maker.       Erfurt
Unit.          66.R.5.180.         
66 Infantry Regimant, 5th Kompany, waff #180

 

Quill with scabbard, not matching. Blade in very good shape, a semi dull hue to it, but no rust or pitting. Guard and pommel darker patina. Screws do have stamps, just a bit faint. Grips are dark but exelent shape.Pommel has two Frakturs and also an “ R C ( crowned) for a repair.

Scabbard is whole but a little bent up. Interesting is the stitching, where about a third of stitches are flattened down with the string/ stitches are larger looking and exposed, I believe this to be a wartime repair. The unit on scabbard is.        
B.2.R ( script).J.1.102.     I think it is

Bayern 2nd reserve Jaeger Battalion,1komp.waff 102

[AndyBsk]

Nice early bayonet, the units are correctly deciphered.

[Steve1871]

Bayonet #83.       
12/18/22

98/05nA

 

Spine.            Crown/W/  faint second set
Maker.           Double marked.           
                       Deutsch.. ?.... enfabrik, ( no make out center part?  A-G  Duisburg.  Second maker is Mundlos & Co, this has one or two letters in front of name, I can not figure out, in Magdeburg        
Unit :  none

Blade clean, no rust/pitting, but medium dark patina, grips are too, but the screws m, showing rust pitting, no see stamps. No think grips were replaced. Flash guard exelent. Single stamp on pommel. The push button and catch may be replaced as they are lighter color. I do not mind, a war time bayonet with all the abuse they went through, repairs were an everyday thing 

Steel scabbard, painted, may be original or old repaint.   Sorry, I do not have too many photo’s of this one. But still a nice War time bayonet

 

 

Edited 2 January , 2023 by Steve1871

[AndyBsk]

Steve, looks like nice bayonet, personally believe the scabbard was overhauled and new blued, any proofs on ball finial and hook? the bayonet itself was made by Demag as delivery of rohling and finished by Mundlos. strange thing is sloted press button similar way were reworked pieces in Weimar/NS period, but this doesnt look like it was blued, it could be replacement press button as it doesnt have patina typical on pommel, possible all the locking lug was replaced? 

To George we should see pictures, the size would be max 500kB to upload. We should known what is the bayonet type and other marking. 99R. would be real for 99.Infantry regiment. About the TO i dont known.

[AndyBsk]

Easy explanation is S98nA bayonet, and the unit could be missreaded  instead of T0 is there 10.- 99 Infantry Regiment, 10. Company and weapon nr.58.

[AndyBsk]

Yes the piece looks ok, even the scabbard is here not presented, i assume there is a date on spine of blade near crossguard. There is no visible details of right ricasso but it could be Erfurt under Crown marked.

Next time would be probably more proper George start a new thread as here is a large Steves presentation of his excellent collection.

Edited 19 December , 2022 by AndyBsk

[Steve1871]

No problems GEORGE1982. Hope you win the bid. Collecting is fun, if not addictive😊 . Like AndyBsk say, hope you can start your own thread, showing the forum what your interest are!

[sgt-maj]

dd

Edited 25 December , 2022 by sgt-maj

[Steve1871]

Bayonet #84.       
12/25/22

S.98aA.       Quill

 spine.         01 
Maker.         Erfurt 
Unit.            4.G.G.R( script).4.192.      
think 4th Guarde Grenaider Reserve Regiment,4th company, waffe 192

I sure if got wrong, the experts will correct me,I do not mind at all. Blade in good shape. All the right proofs in right places. The early model with one piece grip, top right center has dent in it, only draw back on this piece. 
 

The steel replacement/ ersatz scabbard is rather scarce, even among steel scabbards in that it is plain- no stamped/ reproduction tooling lines common on these steel types. Also has no ball final. This scabbard also has # 17 stamped on both the throat and the frog stud. A nice very early piece

Edited 26 December , 2022 by Steve1871

[Steve1871]

Do not know if this unit was part of the troop trials with these bayonets?

[AndyBsk]

S98aA in nice condition with replacement ersatz scabbard, 1901 is already very late for S98aA so the Reserve units were equiped with, i assume 1899 marked pieces were used by trials. But trials should be realised already in 1898. Strange is that the Garde Grenadier Reserve Regiment was not raised in tables, is possible the italic R was used on place of normal R?

Edited 26 December , 2022 by AndyBsk

[Steve1871]

Andy

what do you mean Garde Grenadier Reserve Regiment WAS NOT RAISED IN TABLES??

[AndyBsk]

Look here in the first table, there is zero Reserve Regiment of 4.Garde Grenadier.

https://wiki.genealogy.net/Infanterie_(WK1)

[Sir Mortimer]

Andy,

the stamp is correct according to the prussian 1897 stamping convention. In "Handbuch deutscher Waffenstempel", p.91 the example "3.G.G.R.5.50 is shown, the explanation next to it indicates "3. Garde-Grenadier-Reserve-Regiment, 5. Kompanie, Waffe Nr.50".

However, as you already pointed out, there was no Reserve or Ersatz Regiment of Garde units, but after mobilization, both the 3rd and 4th GGR fielded an Ersatz Battalion consisting of 4 companies, plus 2 recruit depots. https://wiki.genealogy.net/Ersatz-Bataillon_(WK1)#Garde

Since only regiments are listed in the chart, the battalion sized units don't show up and leave a blank space. Stamps were only used on a regimental level for infantry, they probably merged them formally into a "regiment" consisting of aforementioned 4 companies to stay within the stamping convention.

Browsing the information page of the 4th GGR, I followed a link to this book: Unger, Fritz von, Das Königin-Augusta-Garde-Grenadier-Regiment Nr. 4 im Weltkriege 1914-1919; Abbildung, Textskizze, 283 Seiten; Verlag Ohst, Berlin-Charlottenburg 1922, https://digital.wlb-stuttgart.de/index.php?id=6&tx_dlf[id]=10479&tx_dlf[page]=1

On p.279 I found this piece of text:

Roughly translated: 

Because of the hiring of the recruits and the arrival of the wounded, the Ersatz Battalion grew more and more, so much that the barracks weren't enough anymore despite double the peace time allocation. Nearly during the whole duration of the war, schools and other buildings of the surrounding area had to be occupied. During this time, recruit-, recovered-, field- and garrison-companies were founded.

What immense work was done by the battalion on all levels, arises from the fact that during the war, over 17,000 men were trained as replacement [Ersatz] and sent into the field for the active regiment, disregarding the many other transfers for the reserve- and new-formations [newly founded units after mobilization]. 

Coming back to the "Handbuch deutscher Waffenstempel", p. 175: 

Die preußische Handwaffenstempelungsvorschrift vom 28. Juni 1909 (D.V.E. Nr. 185) enthielt traditionell auch Bestimmung über das Schlagen von Truppenstempeln auf lagernden Waffen, die im Falle einer Mobilmachung an neu aufzustellende Einheiten auszugeben waren.

The prussian regulation for stamping small arms from June 28 1909 (D.V.E. Nr. 185) traditionally contained orders for stamping of troop stamps on weapons in storage, which in case of mobilization were to be given out to new-founded units.

The "tradtionally" means that previous stamping regulations also contained this clause, which would also apply for this S98 from 1901. My guess from these pieces of information is the following:

This bayonet was produced and assigned during peacetime for a "yet-to-be-founded" Reserve Regiment of the 4th GGR, which only existed on paper until war broke out. During this time, the bayonet would be in storage with the stamps for this "mobilization unit" already applied. However, things changed over the years and no reserve regiment was founded, instead the ersatz battalions trained the fresh recruits and sent them directly to the main line unit. Maybe these reserve unit marked bayonets were handed out to the succeeding troops of that regiment before the S98 was decommisioned in late 1914.

 

I have a S71 in my collection, marked W74 and stamped "3rd Guards Grenadier Reserve Regiment" 3.G.G.R.R.5.23; this follows the 1890 stamping regulation, the 1897 regulation of Steve's bayonet dropped the non-cursive R for reserve units. The 3rd GGR also didn't field a reserve-regiment, but the same ersatz battalion( consisting of 4 companies) +2 recruit depots. 

If someone else has another plausible theory (or better hard facts!) please let me know, I'd like to know more about this issue, too.

 

Edited 26 December , 2022 by Sir Mortimer

[Steve1871]

That is Great Sir Mortimer!

Great detective work to give us even more knowledge on the fascinating yet complex world of German units. Thank you

[AndyBsk]

Your explanation could be very possible and real, anyway when i look at the unit stamp, the 4. 192 looks fresh like stamped much later as the GGR, there are too some filing traces on the area, same as behind the R is some remains of older stamp?. I believe by the stamping of depot pieces was not the endnumber of weapon stamped, its not typical. but question remains when the unit was stamped. 

Edited 27 December , 2022 by AndyBsk

[trajan]

On 02/12/2022 at 10:56, AndyBsk said:

... the S lion 1 is a czechoslovak inventory stamp, determined the first divisional depot of CS Army located in Prague. Majority of that bayonets were send to Yugoslavia.

A nice find, Steve, and thanks for the extra information AndyB! These seem to have been rare beasties - Carter vol 2 only records 2 examples, but he was writing from records made up to, I guess, 1990.  

Julian

[trajan]

9 hours ago, Sir Mortimer said:

... This bayonet was produced and assigned during peacetime for a "yet-to-be-founded" Reserve Regiment of the 4th GGR, which only existed on paper until war broke out. During this time, the bayonet would be in storage with the stamps for this "mobilization unit" already applied. However, things changed over the years and no reserve regiment was founded, instead the ersatz battalions trained the fresh recruits and sent them directly to the main line unit. Maybe these reserve unit marked bayonets were handed out to the succeeding troops of that regiment before the S98 was decommisioned in late 1914. ...

 

I think this is a sensible interpretation! Thanks Sir Mortimer! I have seen markings for other units that were named in official sources but not actually brought into being.

Julian