Imperial German Bayonet’s from my Collection

[bert.f]

Hello. Steve’a

I do not know English well

Bau- construction company

Betriebs - operational company

poz. Robert

https://www.flickr.com/photos/drakegoodman/48924473547/in/photostream/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/drakegoodman/4710691009

 

Edited 23 February , 2022 by bert.f

[AndyBsk]

As Bert it already mentioned

Bau is Build or Construction Company

Betriebs - operational, or service company

[Steve1871]

Bayonet #66.          
3/1/22

S.71PFM

Spine.     Crown/W/91.        Crown/  ?      
Maker.     P.D.Luneschloss.     Solingen.   
Unit.       E.24.212.     
scab.      E.12.31

Bayonet in great shape. Saw teeth unused.Has two stamps on pommel, no rust. Scabbard does not match. But both are from Ersatz unite from the War.The cross guard has slight remains of older unit,   Scabbard has shrunk perhaps 2cm?  Stitches intact, both brass staples intact. Sorry few pics out focus.

 

Edited 2 March , 2022 by Steve1871

[AndyBsk]

Very nice, but single E means a Eisenbahn not Ersatz so Your scabbard is certainly Eisenbahn Regiment?? or Eisenbahnbau- 12.company or Detachement and weapon nr.31 probably with restipled older 9.Company above, the bayonet is more difficult, but i see there script R.E.24.212 in front  so the most real unit is Reserve Eisenbahn Bau Kompanie nr.24, weapon nr.212. Similar units existed in WW1.

Edited 2 March , 2022 by AndyBsk

[Steve1871]

Bayonet #67      
3/7/22

S.71PFM     Bavarian version

Spine          G.A. , part of other marking, worn.  
                    Away.       
Maker.        Gebr Simson.          
Unit.            B.1.P.2.67

 the unit, I think second letter is a P for pioneer, but could be a different letter. Try my best guess on it.  The Bavarians, on their PFM’s here used a different cross guard, in that their muzzle ring was larger from the outside. Same MRD, muzzle ring diameter inside, but the Bavarians made theirs larger to have the area in back to mill out concave, dished to fit more smoothly against the face of the Gew.88 barrel jacket front. Have 3 slight variations of Bavarians here. On the one pic showing the hilts of 5, this one is the 4th in line. 
The main thing different, separating Bavarians from the Prussian ones are the False Edge for the bottom base for around 5 inches/13 cm, for me, my view is simple. When you have a saw backed blade, you draw away from saw side when pulling blade out, same when you sheath that blade, you push away from saw side to avoid grating/sawing/ grinding the teeth against the softer BRASS scabbard and throat. My Opinion 

This piece shows plenty of wear, yet the saw teeth are still in exelent condition. The pommel is double stamped with letters without crowns, forgot what that means, oddly, the acceptance stamp, the armorer stamped it upside down. The S.71PFM’s are scarce but not rare, just expensive, but Any Bavarian S.71PFM is rare, in any condition. Just wish I had a scabbard for it

Edited 4 April , 2022 by Steve1871

[AndyBsk]

Very nice, the text in the copy is copied from Ruediger book volume IV,pg.103  the piece was used firstly with Gew.M69nM so the barell ring was larger, there could be the ring was outbushed to 17,4mm and as the lockin dimmension of the older rifle was little shorter as the Jaegerbuchse M71 used in Prussia for converting to Gew88 should be removed a small part of backside of ring to better bring it to new rifle, very nice sample by Rudiger called III.model the unit is correct for Bayern 1.Pionier Battalion, 2.KOmpanie, weapon nr.67. Certainly a rare piece, scabbard was with brass bridge on mouthpiece instead of frog stud.

Edited 8 March , 2022 by AndyBsk

[Steve1871]

Bayonet #68       
3/10/22 

S.65/71PFM

Spine.     Crown/W/05.   Small crown/W.      
Maker.     Simson & Co.  Suhl.      
Unit.         Worn away, just a part of it.    
 

May have more photos somewhere on this one.Interesting to compare  differences in this one, a 65/71 to a regular 71pfm, the 65/71 was originally an 1865 PFM for the Dreyse needle fire rifle of same year model. 
First, the S.65 had a bushing inserted in muzzle ring ( bushed) to reduce to 17.4, next the outside of muzzle ring had the right side milled flat in that spot to better see the front sight of the M71 Mauser, being a low/ small front site. Another difference is the pommel, how on this bayonet, it is swept forward more on the final than standard S.71PFM’s. Also, where most 71’s are brass handle, this one shows alloy, steel maybe with a brass wash/ coating that has worn through in parts.

Now the strange part on this piece, while the Spine has the standard crown and DATE of 05,  1905, the lower front face of cross guard has date of  68,    1868?? Seems odd to me.If cross guard were changed, why not add a new S.71 guard?

Bayonet , pommel is mostly worn smooth. Blade has it’s share of scratches and some discoloration but the saw teeth are in great shape, scarce to rare bayonet

Edited 4 April , 2022 by Steve1871

[zuluwar2006]

On 08/03/2022 at 02:04, Steve1871 said:

Bayonet #64.       
3/7/22

S.71PFM     Bavarian version

Spine          G.A. , part of other marking, worn.  
                    Away.       
Maker.        Gebr Simson.          
Unit.            B.1.P.2.67

 the unit, I think second letter is a P for pioneer, but could be a different letter. Try my best guess on it.  The Bavarians, on their PFM’s here used a different cross guard, in that their muzzle ring was larger from the outside. Same MRD, muzzle ring diameter inside, but the Bavarians made theirs larger to have the area in back to mill out concave, dished to fit more smoothly against the face of the Gew.88 barrel jacket front. Have 3 slight variations of Bavarians here. On the one pic showing the hilts of 5, this one is the 4th in line. 
The main thing different, separating Bavarians from the Prussian ones are the False Edge for the bottom base for around 5 inches/13 cm, for me, my view is simple. When you have a saw backed blade, you draw away from saw side when pulling blade out, same when you sheath that blade, you push away from saw side to avoid grating/sawing/ grinding the teeth against the softer BRASS scabbard and throat. My Opinion 

This piece shows plenty of wear, yet the saw teeth are still in exelent condition. The pommel is double stamped with letters without crowns, forgot what that means, oddly, the acceptance stamp, the armorer stamped it upside down. The S.71PFM’s are scarce but not rare, just expensive, but Any Bavarian S.71PFM is rare, in any condition. Just wish I had a scabbard for it

Steve

This example is an excellent bavarian one, plus very rare. 

Gongrats

D. 

[Steve1871]

Hey Demitrios, what are you up to? Waiting for a book of your collection!!!!

[zuluwar2006]

Steve, 

Yes, i will do that, thank you. 

Now, about the Βayerisches Pionier-Faschinenmesser M 71 

It is an extremely rare bayonet for Bavarian pioneer troops. I have the last and most rare convertion. 

Unit marking on crossguard B.2. P. 3.10

The blade although similar to the Prussian pfm 71, differed in one respect. The lower cutting edge began 122mm from the crossguard, possibly to prevent damage to the crossguard when sharpening the blade. 

This bayonet has milled out the muzzle ring. 

Therefore must be the last constructed on 1901 by GFA (Gewehr Fabrik Amberg) and if you notice the hilt is not the standard M 71 type made in 1898-1899.

Notice the blade. It has more squared ends to the fuller and a less angled start to the cutting edge.

It has an extended slot  to the bar attachment groove.

Regards

D. 

[Steve1871]

Thank’s Demitrios 

You say, the Bavarian PFM’s are rare indeed,, I know 3 variations, will have to look at my photo’s later to see if yours is a fourth variant. Collectors, every little change/ variation gives us the excuse to search for another one for the collection and to share with other collectors, or as I say

””THE TREASURE HUNT”, !!!!!!! Never know what you might find

[AndyBsk]

PFM1865/71 is nice, bushed out on crossguard, nothing strange there, the M1865 was used minimum prior 1875 even not later, is all described in Ruediger. Hard to say 05 is the date, the 68 should be date when under crown 1868, but similar piece is heavy worried and cleaned so when the crown was weak it could be polished out.

[Steve1871]

Hey Demitrios 

 my Bavarian PFM’s at the rear/ base of pommel are more rounded/ humped in shape and the final seems a little more curved and tiny bit thicker.          
Your Bavarian has it’s base mostly flat and the final is less curved and a bit thinner. So between you and me, we show 4 Variations of the Rare Bavarian S.71PFM !!😊

1. false edge/regular cross guard./ regular mortise slot

2.false edge/new larger cross guard with back mill out concave/ extended mortise slot to still fit M.69 ( earlier mod.) . 

3. Same as #2 but a tiny tab was inserted in rear of guard as a brace for Gew.88 barrel jacket.      
 

All three have same curved/ humped base of pommel 

4. Demitrios piece, yours has the early mortise slot extension with the later, newer oversized cross guard with the rear of ring milled out concave, but the base of your  pommel is shaped flattened instead of humped with straighter/ thinner final.  
 

Demitrios, all I need is one like yours and you only need 3 more. HaHaHa🤪

I am glad you added your piece here, will be posting more PFM’s later. Hope you have finished healing now

 

Edited 18 March , 2022 by Steve1871

[Steve1871]

Demitrios, my last Bavarian, the one you passed to me, the American seller, the unit is

B.2.P.1.154.       
yours 

B.2.P.3.10.       
The same Bavarian Pioneer battalion. Just different companies. Just noticed this!!

[zuluwar2006]

Excellent bayonet, 

I am glad you got it!!! 

Regards

D. 

[trajan]

Steve and Dimitrios, you two have the best collections of Imperial German bayonets I have seen on this forum! 

Julian

[Steve1871]

Aawww Julian, your making me blush! Thanks,I will never get close to Demitrios on the rare unit’s, just got 5 butchers few months ago, paid off with a lot other stuff, but only one is unit marked ( My first 98/05 unit marked). No know when get home to do a huge photo shoot?  
 

Any idea when you are Going to publish.      
Pleeeeese!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[trajan]

Looking forward to seeing that marked one! On publishing I hope to get my grad student assistant to start processing my pre-2017 records soon, then we'll see where we go from there...

Julian

[Steve1871]

Bayonet #69        
3/21/22

S.71PFM.       Prussian 

Spine.          Crown/W/91.            Crown/B
Maker.         Luneschloss. Solingen 
Unit.            3.T.1.4.  ( think a 4)       
 3 Telegraph Comp. 1st Kompany waffe 4

Overall all the steel, blade/tang and guard has  mild putting where it must have been a thin layer of rust.( my guess) but looks like it was cleaned up long ago, perhaps decades ago as a newer cleaning from light rust would have made it very shiny ( my thoughts) but I have seen photos of many, in far worse condition. The unit, I believe is a Telegraph unit, but no letter like an R, script/type like for regiment or recruitment depot.   Brass in good shape, two Frakturs on pommel and no scabbard, those are more rare than the bayonets. Could not find more photos of this one right now.

Edited 4 April , 2022 by Steve1871

[bert.f]

Hello,

Telegraphen - Bataillon, NR-3 , kompanie 1

http://genwiki.genealogy.net/TB_3

Edited 22 March , 2022 by bert.f

[Steve1871]

Thanks Bert. Thought it would have a “B” for battalion but I was wrong, still learning

[Steve1871]

Bayonet #70         
3/28/22

S.65/71.PFM

Spine         Crown/W/72.      Crown/?
Maker      Jung & Son
Unit          (            ) P.5.122.

 

Started as S.65 PFM. The MRD was bushed to fit the M71 mauser, ( fits Gew88 without change) . Shows a lot of wear, do not see the bushing, usually do. Muzzle ring has a flat spot on right side to better see the low front site of the M71.  Cross guard, the unit, I can not rest first part. Think I see a  1 and maybe 2.  Further to the left I think part of older unit, a small 4.          
The pommel, brass is great, faint small fraktur   To right of push button.   The saw teeth are exelent shape. Blade had light pitting/ rust but was cleaned long ago. No scabbard

 

 

 

Edited 4 April , 2022 by Steve1871

[Steve1871]

 

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Edited 29 March , 2022 by Steve1871
Delete copy

[AndyBsk]

Looks more like PFM1869/71 should be looked at crossguard marking there should be date under crown, anyway the P stamp looks like strange letter, from the rust of crossguard i would believe it was added later. Or was little damaged by cleaning, there are exact size for letters so this is certainly not typical.

[Steve1871]

Bayonet #71       
4/4/22

S.71PFM

Spine        Not sure, no date, the 2 letters
Maker       Gerb.. Simson  Suhl
Unit          XIV . E.F. 3.23

 

BAVARIAN S.71PFM        
This is rare even for Bavarian PFM’s. Most of the surviving Bavarian PFM’s have the older extended mortise slot for use on the M.69 Werder and the later new cross guard, with larger muzzle ring to allow the rear face to be milled out concave. This one, you can see in the two group pic’s of pommels and cross guards, this piece is the center one, it has the original S.71 cross guard/ muzzle ring that still fit the Gew.88, it also has standard mortise slot ( not extended) . As seen in these pics, even has a longer TANG  

This piece, the blade was cleaned some, think long time ago, cross guard in great shape, the pommel has nice aging but two small dents on left side. Pommel with two Frakturs, no scabbard.  One last thing, Most times I see an “E”  for Ersatz or Eisban, it is in standard block letter, this one is in script, does that change the unit type or just different way to apply the letter? Any ideas out there?? Thanks

 

Edited 4 April , 2022 by Steve1871