Imperial German Bayonet’s from my Collection

[AndyBsk]

the Band IV of Ruediger,at pg134 following.

Ruediger reports only 3 types which first type used older blades of M1860 Faschinenmesser, second and third type has nearly identical blades, one was made by Gebr.Weyersberg the last type is declared as late 90ies year made by different maker.

The Rafal outdoted unit stamp on upper mouth piece of scabbard should be for 2. Reserve Company of 13.Pionier Batallion. later probably reserialed the number of company?.

Note how many units were raised from PB13 on lower part of the basic unit in period of WW1

https://wiki.genealogy.net/PB_13

Edited 4 January , 2023 by AndyBsk

[Steve1871]

Bayonet #86.      
1/8/23

S.71 Wurttenberg PFM

Spine.        
Date.        
Unit.             13.P.5.16.    
Wurttenberg 13th Pionier Battalion 5th Kompany Waffe 16

First off, I want to thank AndyBsk and Sir Mortimer members for their help and info from F. Rudiger’s book, only in German. Their are three variation’s of these bayonets. This version with Fuller squared off at both end’s are actually the original blade’s with full tang’s from earlier M1860 model rifle. They were re-worked with new brass grip’s and new S.71 cross guard’s. I think by Gerb ( brothers) Weyersberg..

The first one I posted has fuller squared off at base and tapered at front was also made by Weyersberg and was a new made Bayonet for the I.G.71 Mauser, which the Gew.88 was made to take same bayonet’s.      
 

The last one has the longer fuller, made only by  F.A. Herms 

This Bayonet show’s a lot more wear, and pitting, cleaned away long ago on guard and leaf spring, to me, meaning it was stored tight in a scabbard . Unit was changed by hashing out some battalion and no Ersatz which would have been second letter, I believe. Overall, it is still in good condition for such a rare bayonet

[Rafal1971]

He is also the producer of The Weyersberg Brothers.

Wirttenberg Hermes's photo from Roy Williams' book

Best

Rafal

[Rafal1971]

The blade is heavily clean, so the producer has disappeared. See the difference between a flat part and a grove

[Steve1871]

Yes, as I said,,the last type with long fuller was only made by F.A. Hermes

Edited 9 January , 2023 by Steve1871

[bert.f]

Hello, Steve.

Congratulations !!.

great pieces , and actually not to get,

scan from the book . Klaus Lubbe

[Steve1871]

Thank’s Bert

[AndyBsk]

Ruediger didnt write that the early PFM1871 with older blade M1860 were realised the rework by Gebr.Weyersberg more real it was realised in Koeng.Waffenfabrik Oberndorf , anyway both bayonet M1860 and newer production of PFM1871 were produced by same firm also Gebr.Weyersberg. Evidently the maker was removed by polishing or refurbishment of the bayonet.

Edited 10 January , 2023 by AndyBsk

[Steve1871]

BAYONET #87.       
1/14/23

S71PFM Wurttenberg.  

Maker         F.A.  HERMES    Solingen 

Some of you members may not like, but the markings on blade are no longer present due to cleaning/scrubbed/refurbishment but I bought these three bayonets around 15 or so years ago, they were extremely rare then and are still very rare now. This one also has a scabbard and those are even more rare than the bayonet. Just enjoy them if you like as fellow collectors         
This is the long fuller variation in very good condition for it’s age. Pommel with two Frakturs and cross guard has a “ Z” stamp for maker or assembly stamp. 
 

The scabbard is rough textured from age and drying out, but is complete. Has the “ Bavarian “ bar instead of standard Prussian tear drop. With typical Bavarian numbers above. I think sometimes Wurttenberg used the Bavarian type. No shrinkage of leather, seam and all brass staples are intact
 

A rare set to show all three variations 

 

[Steve1871]

Extras. All photo’s taken half year ago, no access to collection right now. Long way from home

 

Edited 14 January , 2023 by Steve1871

[AndyBsk]

Nice, last one should be normally have a Hermes stamp, but maybe it was cleaned out, the strange ring on scabbard is typical for Bavaria, but could be used by some small states. question remains why is there no 589 on bayonet, maybe proof could help on crossguard and pommel when compared with others. From mouthpiece was probably removed material in Ruediger is pictured the frog ring in middle of mouth piece.

Edited 14 January , 2023 by AndyBsk

[bert.f]

Hello,

Scabbard with weapon number 589, is for bayonet the Wurttemberg Artillery Rifle M 1860

greetings . Bert

https://www.waffensammler-kuratorium.de/ar1860/as18602.html

[Steve1871]

Bert.f

Rhanks for your response, I keep being told the M1860 bayonet, do not believe was for a Dreyse. But this shows the origin of these bayonets it looks. On the scabbard. Your photo shows steel chape and final. The S71 series ( except HF) use brass. The “ Bavarian” bar type stud was common on the Prussian/Bavarian PFM saw back, the Bavarian has same type and size bar, brass

It is interesting to see the S1860 Bert. Thanks again

[AndyBsk]

Yes Ralf should be correct, the missing mouth piece and higher positioned ring are typical signs for M1860 and M1860/70 bayonets, it could be too that the brassmetals are the 1863 production as mentioned in the link, evidently there are larger number of bayonets prior the 1876 produced, and the serial number speaks for it on the scabbard. Steve You should probably mix the scabbards.

Edited 15 January , 2023 by AndyBsk

[Rafal1971]

Gentelmen,

 

The leather is not sewn smooth side up, the number doesn't look German either

Maybe it's a scabbard from French French 1854 Imperial Guard Infantry Sidearm/sword

https://www.michaeldlong.com/product/french-1854-imperial-guard-infantry-sidearm-58/

 

Best Rafal
 

[AndyBsk]

It could be the scabbard is a repair, the lost of lack on surface could be explanation of this surface, the sewing of leather was added on wrong side evidently. The Wurtt. marking is not typical as prussian, so similar serialing could be too from this area, question remains the M1854 have same lenght as this PFM? on link the leather sewing looks different place by french on side done.

Edited 18 January , 2023 by AndyBsk

[Rafal1971]

FOR Steve - Of course, Steve - great bayonets :-)

 

French Sword 1854 - Length 643mm Blade 490mm Fuller 413mm.

S71PFM Wurttenberg - Gesamtlänge: 58,3cm, Klingenlänge: 45,2cm, Klingenbreite an der fehlschärfe knapp 4,5cm

 

[Steve1871]

Andy and Rafal.    
 

I do appreciate your comments, may not always agree, but we all still are learning, and better for it. On this last piece. The Scabbard, it does have a throat piece. The standard throat piece has a wider lip at top, as you show from pages from book. It was not too uncommon in 1860’s - 70’s to copy/borrow a type or style of bayonet from elsewhere. It does look like the Wurttenberg S.1860 PFM might be a copy, at least in blade from that French 1854.   Interesting 

I still believe my scabbard was original S1871. Mostly because that 1860 you post was steel chape/final, where mine is all brass like the S71 series, I agree with Andy, must be refurbished or repair piece. I found a comparison photo in another folder, I never really liked this throat piece, and yes, no Fraktur 

[AndyBsk]

Mouth piece looks like reworked for this shape of blade, so the scabbard is a repair with some parts from different scabbards, mouth piece could be from different bayonet later reshaped /refilled for Wurtt.type of blade. Evidently the leather body was installed wrong way by repair.

-Secondly the bayonet is probably too a rework, when looking at proofs, there are different one and size, could be J and C or T

-thirdly Rudiger reports that the Wurtt.PFM1871 are wout steel tang of blade visible in area of handgrip. So i assume this blade was equiped with prussian PFM handle not typical as Wurtt. type handle. In the picture of all 3 pcs it looks like this last one has about 1-2cm longer blade, the fuller is longer and blade is heavier.

-In last case there is no Wurtt.unit stamps on any parts of bayonet and scabbard. I would weight the blade or complete bayonet and compare it with others here, as the blade looks much heavier as the other with blades from Gebr.Weyersberg.

Edited 19 January , 2023 by AndyBsk

[Rafal1971]

I wonder if it's not a commemorative bayonet for leaving the army. Page 243 down from Roy's book

On the scabbard case, he stands by his opinion

[AndyBsk]

It could be too a possibility, anyway the Weyersberg Knight head extra piece looks like lighter version as the combat one. It could be that some older blades were refurbished in wartime with other handles.

Edited 23 January , 2023 by AndyBsk

[Steve1871]

Bayonet # 88.         
1/22/23

S.98 n/A.  Bavarian 

Spine.       Crown/ O/ 06.     Crown/ W.         
Maker.      C. G. Haenel  Suhl.   
Unit.         B.22.R.     2.117.

Has all the right proof’s, It appears that there was an older unit/ scrubbed. The new unit, a big space/ gap. Where something else should have been stamped, or selectively scrubbed out. Odd, but have seen before on a few other bayonets. Spine has the “ O” for king Otto. Both grip’s have a capital S stamped into them? Any idea’s out there??

Scabbard intact, but a little beat up. Two stamps to throat.Seeing photo’s, the leather has not shrunk, there is some dirt or #%*{? Stuck in bottom. No time to try get out

Edited 24 January , 2023 by Steve1871

[trajan]

36 minutes ago, Steve1871 said:

Bayonet # 88.         
Unit.         B.22.R.     2.117.

Has all the right proof’s, It appears that there was an older unit/ scrubbed. The new unit, a big space/ gap. Where something else should have been stamped, or selectively scrubbed out. Odd, but have seen before on a few other bayonets. Spine has the “ O” for king Otto. Both grip’s have a capital S stamped into them? Any idea’s out there??

 

 

 

Another nice one! Yes, certainly a letter removed there - the dot that marked its end is still there. I'd guess 'E' for Ersatz a smost likely. Not seen that 'S' mark or anything similar before though...

Julian

 

[AndyBsk]

Nice S98nA from Bavaria, hard to say there was something removed in area of unit, could be there was lightly strucked or nothing was there. Maker is C.G.Haenel. The scabbard was probably mixed in time. I assume there is large 8 and S on left grip, normally when it would be on metall and followed by lion, it could be czechoslovak inventory stamp, anyway both side and on wood, it could be the grips are marked in some way.

https://www.cg-haenel.de/en/

Edited 23 January , 2023 by AndyBsk

[Sir Mortimer]

The "S" stamp on the grip is mentioned in Ian Jackson's Seitengewehr 14 book, p.111:

On his webpage the following addendum is found: https://www.imperial-german-bayonets.net/?page_id=205

The “enigmatic S” stamp (page 111) found on the both sides of the wooden grips of S14 type I and type II bayonets (also documented on Imperial German Ersatz and S98nA bayonets) is almost certainly the mark of the Stembridge Gun Rental Company of Hollywood, USA.  This company was started by James Stembridge between 1916 and 1920 and gathered up large amounts of surplus militaria, marked them with an “S” stamp, and rented them out  for making Hollywood war movies.

This info should be included in the new, revised version of his book.