Imperial German Bayonet’s from my Collection

[Steve1871]

Bayonet #101.       
7/16/23

M.69 Werder Conv.

Spine.             Has Sn: 422.       
Maker.            Think Solingen and A version of   
                       Weyersberg.         
Unit.               R( script).R.K.L  .201., older.      
                       No. Mostly there.     
Sn:                 422, spine,guard,pommel.     
Rack #.          81139

the blade has a leather washer most likely private bought. Common on dress pieces, but does hide the complete maker, sorry, was in hurry.  I can not separate the old and new unit?. Looks like start with a 3 or 8. Usually does start with a number, reserve, the second “R” is not script, but not regular type either. If I guess on the “ L”, would get wrong, then clearly a K, for Kolumn or ? Then what looks like a strange A? No make out next.       
All the steel, blade,guard, release button in great shape. Pommel great tone and shape.  On the conversion. Step type, most common type I have seen is by the 3rd rib from rear.This one is on the 4th one. Check out  member ZuluWar2006  for many variations 

Scabbard does not match Sn:850. Few minor dents, seam intact, pretty good shape.few more dents on final.  Final has 1 over 91.  I do not know what that means?

 

Edited 17 July by Steve1871

[AndyBsk]

Well used Werder M1869 aptiert, question remains for what rifle, the crossguard was replaced, it would be nice to see the crosspiece front part wout buffer, which is not proper there. The handle was removed and reriveted visible on first head rivet, should be visible on pommel area too on end of tang. The new serial in 422.  The unit has in front a digit 8? R. R. L. Ka. 4. 201., older.? Reserve R as i believe the second letter is not K but more real R. L could be for Landwehr, Ka could be for location, 4? Company and weapon nr.xxx. On scabbard was used similar conversion numbering, i believe 1/91 is a old unit numbering for 1.Company and weapon nr.91. its probably similar conversion as previous piece. Small range conversion. 81130 is not rack number but rifle sn.

Edited 17 July by AndyBsk

[Steve1871]

Besides training and rear guard and other duties, they were issued to rear and second line reserve troops as side arms, we have seen various photos and post cars photos,   
Andy, why you think cross guard replaced. Looks the same size, height and everything. I not sure grips removed, on refurbished for Great War, looks like first rivit on grip was replaced, as you say, could simply replace worn part, rivit looks loose on one side and smashed down on other 

[Steve1871]

Andy, what you think on that large number on throat piece, last bayonet. #100?

[AndyBsk]

On mouth piece i see only 850 above the frog bridge, some large number is on ball fittings, a 104 over the rectangular pin , there was other number over the 1/91.

[AndyBsk]

On previous piece, 253 i would mean is too a conversion as the crossguard was replaced or reworked to higher positioning the barell ring, question remains what is in front of 253 on blade, it looks like some proof, visible on 422 and 618 piece too. All the handles have filling around the first rib, by 618 is the first rib shortened evidently, unfortunally You dont provide here any pictures of tang of blade hammered on end of pommel? 44034 is a rifle number not a rack or inventory nr.

Edited 17 July by AndyBsk

[AndyBsk]

Andy, why you think cross guard replaced.

Werder has normally a barell ring directly on handle, here is 6-8mm distance from the ring.

As i declared You in 25page, there are all 3 pieces of same conversion in front of new numbers 618,422,253 on blade spine are strange proof, all have higher rings also were reworked for different rifle as Werder 69 aM. There could be 2 explanations the crossguard was replaced with a new one, or the old crosspiece was cut and dovetailed a newer higher ring on it, for this should be detailed pictures of front and backside of crossguard. You should proof it on Werder 69nM rifle or on other rifles IG1871, G71/84? i dont believe this is a WW1 conversion, as partly old bavarian units are there, mainly Landwehr. Similar rework could be not done directly on bayonet but should be dissasembled, for this is clear the handle was removed from tang.

Edited 17 July by AndyBsk

[Steve1871]

Thanks Andy, I did not know that mark was for conversion proof. As I said before, many of these were at beginning of war, issued out as side arms to rear and secondary troops

[AndyBsk]

I only dedicated that this should be a proof, as allways on the side of new number, the using of similar bayonets is questionable in WW1, firstly majority were sold out in 189xies, some were reworked to M69/98 bayonets, other bunch to dress Bavarian artillery M92 sidearms, this could be a conversion of newer rifle, as on some exist still the Landwehr units stamp, i personally tend to pre 1900 refurbishments. You should in future made pictures of pommel area on similar bayonets where the tang ends on pommel. Anyway You have 3 pcs of same sort of refurbishment. Maybe asking the memory from what source they came from?

Edited 18 July by AndyBsk

[Steve1871]

Hey guys, sorry been away so long., been searching for misplaced digital folders on my collection.I wanted to finish these Werder bayonets ad a group. Still can not find folder, it has comparison pics of different pommel cuts and four different scabbard variations. Will have to come back to them later. 
 

I realize the Werder bayonets were used only as side arms, with training,reserve and rear area ( artillery) troops. By period photo’s. They did not use them with any rifle I believe, since there are many photo’s  showing the use of the S.71 by ersatz , prison guard and other rear troops. Just recently bought a book ( cheap) for one such photo, showing two German guards with Gew.88 with S.71 at a prisoner train with Russian prisoners. Prussia would not need or use the Werder bayonets on rifles when already use some S.71.

will get back to these M.69 later. Did find this photo of my Werders

[Steve1871]

Bayonet #102.         
9/16/23

S.98 Quill back

 

Spine           Crown/W/ 06.   Crown/?  No read    
Maker          Alex Coppel.  Solingen
Unit              57.R.E.1.27

  No scabbard with this one, but I really like the use with an Ersatz unit. Did not have time to clean the light surface rust from it, but not too bad condition. Stamping in all the right places

 

Edited 16 September by Steve1871

[AndyBsk]

Hello Steve, nice to hear of You and see interesting bayonets of Your collection. About Werders i would disagree with You that the refurbished bayonets are as Sideams only used, the refurbishment as remove of handgrip spine, dissasembly adding a new higher barell ring and assembly the grips should be by someone payed, were also not realised for free, so when it would be used as sidearm the configuration would remain in old  Werder 69 configuration, i would proof it attach on M1869 neues Modell, same as on Gew.71 as You probably have these rifles. You should find more info in bavarian literature as this is out of prussian bayonet books.

S98nA is well marked into Ersatz Batallion and 1.Company.

[Steve1871]

Andy, My werder bayonets, All have modified pommels, stepped and shaved down pommels with the newer guards with higher muzzle rings, but at least two of mine have original guards, with the muzzle ring basically flush with the pommel. Yes, I do have a M.69 rifle, original barrel

Good to hear from you, how have you been?

[Steve1871]

 Bayonet #103.       

9/16/23

Ersatz.    EB55

 

One of the rarest, and more expensive ones. For the price, I wish it was in better shape. Only the 3rd one seen for sale in over 10 years. Al least it is original. With original scabbard. Scabbard shows original paint, not sure on the unit. The throat is a interesting to me in that, in almost all other scabbards I have seen, the top of throat piece sticks out just a wee bit to add as a stopper so the throat piece does not get pushed in too far. It can clearly be seen in the pic

 

Edited 16 September by Steve1871

[AndyBsk]

Yes this looks like a nice one rare piece ASG98, possible it was little hammered on pommel, but this could be repaired, the tip was probably little reshaped. the unit on scabbard looks like typical war time stamp. 2.Ersatz Batallion of Inf.Regiment nr.25, 3.Kompanie and weapon nr.77 i would personally explain it so. The Z proof is typical for Solingen Ohligs area, only 2 firms used it F.Koeller & Co Solingen, and J.H. Becker.

Infanterie-Regiment von Lützow (1. Rheinisches) Nr. 25

• 2. Ersatz-Bataillon Inf.-Rgt. Nr.25 aufgestellt in Rheydt (4. Komp. Mönchengladbach), wurde am 21.10.1916 aufgelöst.

Edited 16 September by AndyBsk

[Rafal1971]

And here is the M 1914 ...

Weak but matching

Same regiment, but second company

 

[Steve1871]

Thanks Rafal1971

You are always welcome to share. How are the blades on those two bayonets?  Mortise slot still good enough to lock onto rifle?

[Rafal1971]

That's one bayonet.
Markings on the bayonet crossguard are placed on both sides.
I didn't put it on rifle because I only collect bayonets.

[AndyBsk]

Same opinion, the Steves bayonet is most real different and not unit marked only scabbard. Scabbard looks identical to Rafal piece, so probably delivered with S14 bayonet, not with this type. Similar bayonet type was mostly used by Wurttemberg  units. Maybe the proof on right ricasso could help for assigning the piece.

Edited 17 September by AndyBsk

[robert taylor]

Hi! I have a question! Is it a Hirschfanger bayonet or not? Thx!

Edited 11 November by robert taylor

[Rafal1971]

A bayonet modeled after Hirsch, but made on a private order in a workshop, e.g. after leaving the army. This is not a military, regulation weapon.

[AndyBsk]

First question what the blade is on? secondly its attachable or any rifle? in case the both points are not standard so it should be a personall upgrade for extra dress wearing or to commemoration, the piece should be started in new thread normally.

[Steve1871]

Yes, I agree with Andy and Rafal,. A commercial piece or after war, someone got creative with some surplus bayonet. The screws do not look German military and the guard on top actually looks bent back just a little, not sure it would fit onto a rifle. The Birds head pommel looks a little small for a S.71 Hirschfanger. I thinking the pommel might be from ( walking out)  / parade piece similar to mine here, with an actual bayonet blade added. From the one photo, hard to say, but still interesting, thanks

[robert taylor]

Thank you, guys! More pictures:

[AndyBsk]

There is some etching in blade fuller, should be deciphered, i assume the grip is alloy or brass under the finish, it was repaired in wrong way, grips are replacements, looks like a dress HF1871 pcs.

Edited 12 November by AndyBsk